Harmala dosage and effects

[cj187]

People say that harmala alkaloids not only inhibit MAO, but also produce mild psychedelic effects. I have bought syrian rue extracts from two different sources, and I didn't notice any effects at all when I tried them by themselves. When I tried it with oral DMT, it took 160mg to give me the desired effects. I got some decently strong effects, but from the research I've done, 160mg of DMT should be insanely intense for most people. This leads me to believe that the dose I took was enough to only partially inhibit MAO.

The thing I'm trying to figure out is whether there is a correlation between the harmala high and the MOAI effects. Could a dose of harmala alkaloids give somebody MAOI effects but not psychoactive effects, and vice versa? In other words, should I figure out how much I need to take to get high, then take that much if I want to potentiate a tryptamine? The doses I have been taking should be enough for full MAO inhibition in most people.

 

[red22]

They're psychedelic on their own. Just read the harmaline chapter in Claudio Naranjo's The Healing Journey. The only way he used it... (400 mg, IV); only makes brief mention of MAO inhibition and DMT. Actually, Stanislav Grof, who gave the foreword to The Healing Journey, made a point of distinguishing the "psychedelic" effect from the effects of the drugs focused on in the book (which also include MDA, MMDA, and ibogaine).

Naranjo also used harmaline in combination with MDA and TMA, although he said in the book he was going to omit that data and focus on the isolated harmaline data only. This is significant because people always say that MDx needs to be avoided in combination with MAOIs, and yet Naranjo gave the combination to volunteers; and look at this report in which someone took three MDxs in combination with ayahuasca:

Jezebel. Fun, Plus 'Ghost People': An Experience with Ayahuasca, Mushrooms, MDMA, MDE, MDA, LSD, LSA, Blue Lotus, Cannabis, Alcohol, & Opium (ID 24742). Erowid.org. Jun 24, 2003. erowid.org/exp/24742


Dosage:


For experiment 12, I increased the quantity of harmine hydrochloride to 141 mg (=120 mg base; 1.5 mg/kg), and ingested this along with 35 mg DMT free-base (0.44 mg/kg). By 45 minutes after ingestion, it was obvious the dose was psychoptic, and I experienced a distinct DMT effect building to a peak at 1:05 after ingestion and maintaining a plateau until 1:50, with the effects largely dissipated by 3 hours after ingestion. This experience was of comparable intensity to experiment 6 involving ingestion of a similar amount of DMT (30 mg; 0.38 mg/kg) with extract of 4 g of harmel seeds, and we may conclude that 120 mg of harmine (1.5 mg/kg) will effect sufficient in vivo MAO-inhibition to render DMT active orally with a longer duration and about half the potency of inhaled DMT vapor. To confirm these results, I decided to make another experiment with the harmine/DMT combinations, slightly increasing the amounts of both compounds. Accordingly, I prepared a capsule containing 188 mg harmine hydrochloride (=160 mg harmine base; 2.0 mg/kg) and 40 mg DMT base (0.5 mg/kg).

This capsule was ingested in experiment 13 and indeed provoked a proportionally stronger dmt effect with the first effects felt in 20 minutes, building to a peak by 1:30 after ingestion with a plateau until 2:40, and clearly diminishing effects at 3:00 after ingestion. By 4:00 after ingestion there were no effects, nor after-effects. All in all, the experience was quite pleasant and similar to experiment 3 in Ecuador with about 50 leaves of DMT-containing Psychotria viridis per dose, ’though somewhat less potent.

Pharmacotheon: Entheogenic Drugs, Their Plant Sources and History. Chapter 4: Beta-carbolines and Ayahuasca Potions. Jonathan Ott. Natural Products Company. 1993. p. 250 DOWNLOAD


ANSWERS TO MAOI QUESTIONS
Spring 1993

100 mg harmaline HCl (dissolved/suspended) in water takes 15–30 minutes to inhibit gut MAO, before 100 mg oral DMT free-base (similarly suspended) is psychoactive, although not fully “psychedelic.” That is, there is some closed-eye imagery, but effects are primarily somatic (increased energy) and affective (euphoria). These effects are based on pure synthetic compounds.

Note: 100 mg of DMT is a pretty stiff dose, and certainly should be quite active at this level! Jonathan Ott states that this is 3 times the minimal visionary dose for him, and he claims to be more resistant than most to tryptamines. As well, Ott places the dose of free-base harmaline that allows oral-activation of DMT in most individuals at 60 mg, and has found for himself that as little as 40 mg will work for him (Ott 1999). (Although one should keep in mind that free-base harmaline is slightly more potent than the harmaline HCL used above.) Clearly different individuals have different responses to different doses, and prudence suggests starting low and working one's way up slowly.
— DAVID AARDVARK

Ott, J. 1999. “Book Review: Enzyklopädie der psychoaktiven Pflanzen: Botanik, Ethnopharmakologie und Anwendung by C. Rätsch ,” The Entheogen Review, 8(2): 81–83.

Ayahuasca Analogues and Plant-based Tryptamines. The Best of The Entheogen Review 1992–1999, Second Edition. Jim DeKorne, David Aardvark, K. Trout (Editors). This book can be downloaded with a Shroomery account: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/download.php?Number=21028411

 

[WSH]

People say that harmala alkaloids not only inhibit MAO, but also produce mild psychedelic effects.

Yes, they are also 5-ht2a agonists, they are not very potent, but still.

 

[Volsam]

Cj187 - I'd say either not very potent extract you are using or a personal body metabolism. I don't feel psychedelic effects from Harmaline alone, just feel slightly intoxicated and heavy-headed with dulled hearing, but that's me. One friend of mine tried double the amount I usually take (100-150mg fro me, so he took approx 250mg), and he said "Not much happened", which makes me think that your diet and personal metabolism would play a big role in Harmala's effects. 100-130mg of Harmaline and 30-80mg of DMT is all I need for Pharmahuasca.

I have noticed, though, that if on top of 130mg of Harmaline I'd take my daily stack of supplements, vitamins, nootropics and amino acids, along with kratom and mate tea, Id get some nice mood elevation and slight visual enhancement.

Goes excellent with Mescaline for me and cuts the dosage for pretty much any psychedelic radically!
Harmaline provides "grounding", "earthy" effect, which becomes a "fire" effect for me if increasing a dosage of it.

If you can get harmala seeds, its easy and fun to get your freebase extract, and you can do Harmaline/Harmine separation as well. But in no way I'm implying that this MAOI is a toy to play around with!

Hope this helps someone!

 

[cj187]

Thanks for your input. I think you're right about me not using enough. I know that some people do need over 150mg of oral DMT for strong effects, but I'm not hardheaded when it comes to any other psychedelic. Considering that I've tried two different extracts, I'm pretty sure it's my metabolism. I've been researching it a little bit and found that there is a wide variation is how easily people metabolize MAOIs depending on their enzymes. I'll try a higher dose of harmine.

I'd want to try oral DMT again at some point, and I also plan to experiment with combining harmine with other tryptamines. I think I'll try it with MPT some time soon. Using it to extend the duration of 4-HO-EPT sounds appealing too.

I'm a little curious about MAOI and mescaline. How did the side effects compare with taking mescaline by itself? Did you use pure mescaline or cactus?

 

[Volsam]

I'll try a higher dose of harmine.

^^^ Also I'd suggest to try subcutaneous ROA - the onset is about 5 minutes, the onset is more powerful and usually makes me a bit dizzy that way but it doesn't last as long too. Best to combine subcutaneous and oral for maximum effects. Some people smoke it too but I'd advise against it - got weird chest pains after smoking a good amounts of it, perhaps vaporizing would be a better idea, but still.

I think I'll try it with MPT some time soon. Using it to extend the duration of 4-HO-EPT sounds appealing too.

^^^
It definitely did the trick! 4-HO-EPT lasted "forever" and MPT appeared a lot more euphoric with it.

I'm a little curious about MAOI and mescaline. How did the side effects compare with taking mescaline by itself? Did you use pure mescaline or cactus?

^^^
I've tried synthetic Mescaline Sulphate only once and haven't noticed much difference to extracts if they are done right (pure white beautiful needles), and actually I think I prefer extracts over the synthetic. If taking Mescaline by itself, I'd need at least 250mg of a potent cactus extract, more for a visionary quest. If taking with Harmaline I can get similar effects with only 100mg or more for a visionary quest. Mescaline by itself takes longer to kick in than without Harmaline, about 3 hours compared to 1-1,5hrs. Mescaline is less nauseous with Harmaline IMO. Edgy stimulating effects of higher dosage of Mescaline are dulled and smoothed by Harmaline. I've noticed that visualizing my imagination (Mescaline is great for imagination tickling) is also enhanced with Harmaline.