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Hallucinogens compared to dissociatives

shpongle1987

Bluelighter
Joined
Feb 22, 2011
Messages
520
So I was just smoking a cig and started pondering this...what makes dissociatives different from hallucinogens? The main reason I ask is because when I think of dissociatives first thing that comes to my mind is DXM because ive had such a long history with it and for some reason im one of the people who love it. The most common experience I would have with dxm is putting my headphones on, laying in bed with my eyes closed waiting for the CEV's to gradually get stronger and stronger until i would find myself in a completely different room/environment. When I would get to this new place I pretty much felt as if I was no longer human, or anything for that matter. I just feel like a floating head with no body attached journeying thru these different landscapes that the dxm made in my head. The only way I would get snapped back into the real world was when the cd i was listening ended, and when it did abruptly end I would be wooshed back into reality. So basically im wondering why the cev's i saw.....different landscapes ect.....wouldn't be considered hallucinations? What makes them dissociation's rather then plain old hallucinations?
 
Dude, dissociatives are generally considered hallucinogens by anyone who uses that broad classing. Where have you heard it said that they aren't? And you can't have dissociations, the cevs are cevs. Dissociation refers to the state of being dissociated, detached from one's own mind and surroundings and what not.
 
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Ive never heard of ket,pcp or dxm ever refered to as anything but dissociative's. And when you say cev's are diff from dissociation's....then when i was dissociating and saw vivid landscapes with my eyes closed that wouldn't be considered a cev? I sure think it would.
 
Ive never heard of ket,pcp or dxm ever refered to as anything but dissociative's. And when you say cev's are diff from dissociation's....then when i was dissociating and saw vivid landscapes with my eyes closed that wouldn't be considered a cev? I sure think it would.

hallucinogens are any chemical that can change your visual perceptions, its a very broad term. your thread title should be "psychedelics vs/ dissociatives" or even more accurately serotonergic psychedelics/dissociatives. N K B was saying that DXM visions are CEVs, just like CEVs from LSD, shrooms, etc. a "dissociation" is not a word, its just something you made up. closing your eyes on DXM and being in some sort of dream world is just a vision, you can have these on regular psyches too.

the real difference between the two is how they work. dissociative anesthetics work through NMDA receptors, whereas classic psyches work through your 5HT receptors. so although both types of chemicals can have profound effects on perception and thought processes, they work in vastly different ways.

another important difference is that dissociatives can be rather addictive if you arent careful, while traditional psyches rarely cause addiction.
 
Hallucinogens is generally used as an overly broad term to group together a whole bunch of drugs just like upper or downer for CNS stimimulants/depressents. Generally speaking we would include, 5HT mediated psychedelics, kappa opioid agonists (salvia, ibogaine), NMDA antagonists (the dissociatives), GABAergic hallucinogencs (muscimol, z hypnotics...okay i'm mainly the one who talks about this as a class of drugs but whatevs), anticholinergics (aka deliriants), and less commonly people will throw cannibanoids in there too for good measure.

Now dissociatives sometimes refers to a broad class as well, since feelings of detachment and unreality can be caused by a number of things. Some people count NMDA antagonists, kappa opioid agonists and the GABAergic hallucinogens (well generally just muscimol. The selective affinity for GABAA-ρ receptors shared between them isn't common knowledge) as dissociatives. It can all be rather confusing.

And when you say cev's are diff from dissociation's....then when i was dissociating and saw vivid landscapes with my eyes closed that wouldn't be considered a cev? I sure think it would.

No no no, I'm saying the CEVs are CEVs. There is no such things as dissociations. You cannot pluralize the word since it does not refer to such a discrete phenomena. Like I said, the word dissociation refers to the feeling of separation/detachment from mental processes and parts of normal consciousness, like from your own body and emotions or the external world.

Edit: whoops, looks like pKT beat me to the punch in explaining things.
 
(Very over-simplified and subjective response):

Hallucinogens augment and warp reality (or give you a glimpse into reality, depending on your perspective), but you always know that you are seeing "more", and that you are "on drugs". Long-term use of hallucinogens can easily change the way you think and see reality, but they rarely themselves lead to actual delusions.

With dissociatives you often actually believe what you see at the time...and this impression can last after the drug has worn off. I have known long-term ketamine users (myself included, at one time) to become completely convinced of a parallel reality, which is patently neither true nor useful.

Fun aside (and there is little more fun than a k-hole): hallucinogens can be a great tool, and I hugely respect them. Dissociatives on the other hand (N2O, ketamine, DXM) are only useful in their ability to inspire a sense of wonder... with repeated use they become misleading and addictive.
 
i feel like we should have a Venn Diagram for this thread.

i just wanted to add that dissociatives like PCP analogs and mxe (being longer acting NMDA antagonists that stimulate an opioid receptor site also) can also help lower opiate tolerance and in some cases end physical addiction to opiates whereas hallucinogens do not affect opiate tolerance. Also, some dissociatives have a pain killing property, which is why k is still used on kids and animals.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucinogen

Generally "Hallucinogens" are divided into three classes:
- Psychedelics
- Dissociatives
- Deliriants

Psychedelics (e.g. LSD, mushrooms, DMT, Mescaline) are generally regarded as the drugs which act as 5ht2a receptor agonists, these produce hallucinations in all of the senses, distorting existing perception so that there is visual waving, colours changing, sounds misinterpreted and other such hallucinations.

Dissociatives are usually NMDA antagonists (e.g. Ketamine, PCP, DXM, MXE), but going by current classification, dissociatives also include k-Opioid agonists (e.g. Salvia Divinorum, Ibogaine, and believe it or not Menthol to some extent) and also GABA-A agonists like Muscimol and Thujone. Unlike psychedelics these produce hallucinations by blocking signals and turning off parts of the brain, the hallucinations present vary a lot, but they tend to be less visually colourful and more physically interesting - producing feelings of numbness or being "out of body".

Deliriants tend to be cholinergic or anticholinergic drugs, from various varieties of Nicotine, to Datura, and even Diphenhydramine. They're more similar to the DARE interpretations of hallucinogens, people seeing people that aren't there, and not even knowing they've taken a drug. Deliriants tend to also enhance the clarity of dreams after being taken, and so it's plausible that these vivid lifelike hallucinations are a result of some kind of waking dream state, the brain not realising that it is awake, and trying to create a dream environment.

Does that help a little? :)
 
My cat just picked up a pen and wrote this on the wall..

"I can finally see. There is a consciousness that is everywhere. Its like my eyes have opened for the first time in my life. None of this matters, There is so much more than what we see and feel and touch. I can let go of everything. I can let go of the pain and fear that has ruled me all my life. All these things that I thought where so important, all these things I was afraid of, proud of, obsessed with, they are all meaningless. All this wasted time and energy on trying to gain material things, trying to earn fancy titles and climb to positions of power, I see now how futile that all is. Oh my god, I think i have finally found a way to live the peaceful fulfilling life I have always craved. All the demons that have held me down all my life have been shaken loose. I can finally stand up straight and see the light on the horizon. It is frightening, and beautiful and amazing. This is so new to me, I feel like a fawn that was just born deep in the woods, standing on unsteady legs. I dont know what lies ahead, but I know its beautiful. I know I am letting go, of everything. My fear, my pride, my ego. All of it. I really believe some of you know the truth of what im saying. Something in the back of my mind told me to reach out to you, to share this with you. Im at the beginning of a great journey, it will be incredible, but I will need a guide."

So yeah, my cat just had a experience to say the least. There is so much knowledge and insight exploding in his head right now i think his little fuzzy head will explode."

Any advice?
 
I'm interested in the terminology we use to describe drug experiences as well. A few years ago (but I see not as old as this thread) atara made a thread in Neuroscience and Pharmacology Discussion titled "Should we really call salvia/pentazocine/ibogaine "dissociative"?. I made the last post in reply to endotropic:
I'm starting to see where you guys are coming from. Dissociative is an informative term, so no sense getting rid of it, but kappa agonist doesn't do much to tell the end user what they're in for, unless they've already experienced a drug in that class.

So what's a good alternative? How about dissdysphorics for dissociative dysphorics (or dysdissociatives :D) Or maybe I should let the creative types come up with the nomenclature.
Yes, "dissociative" is a fine term -- there's no need to get rid of it. I just think there's more communicative utility, in terms of discussing psychoactive phenomenology, in thinking about it foremost as representing drugs whose effects are characterized by NMDA antagonism, and having a new phenomenologically oriented term for kappa agonists. If we had a group of experienced poly-drug users go into a sensory deprivation tank, and then asked them to put a check next to the drug-class on a multiple choice list that they felt best mimicked sensory deprivation, they'd all check the NMDA antagonist box. After all, we can understand why John Lilly elected to use ketamine to enhance the effects of the sensory deprivation tank. The reason this class best mimicks sensory deprivation is presumably because they block a neurotransmitter that is hugely implicated in communications between the brain and body, broadly speaking.

So far our candidates for the proposed new term include: oneirogens (dream-inducers), makyoleptics (from Zen makyo, "illusion" + Greek -lepsis, "fit/spasm"), dissphorics, and [I'm changing my suggestion a bit] sui-mutagenics (roughly Latin for "generators of self-change"). Of course, I'm partial to my suggestion, though I'm open to a more eloquent selection of root terms. The reason I choose it is because, in terms of phenomenological effects, the way kappa agonists alter the user's relationship to their self-concept (e.g. reports of "becoming wall paper" or "living the entire life of another individual") is to my judgment the feature that sets them most strikingly apart from the effects of other psychoactive classes. It would be better if the term included the Latin or Greek for "remake," instead of just "change," but I'm not sure what that is. Another, maybe more clinically appropriate, alternative might be something that translates to "mimicker of dissociative identity disorder".

I imagine lots of people reading this and shaking their heads while muttering "god damned drug nerds have too much time on their hands," heh. But honestly, if we believe that understanding consciousness/self-awareness/subjectivity is important, then I really do think the argot for discussion needs to be richer when it comes to fleshing out the effects of the most powerful tools we have for manipulating these things. It's just that a lot of these newcomers to the menagerie of possible human experience are literally years old and are given an intellectual cold shoulder because they're considered deviant forms of consciousness (which is absurd). Obviously we can't add terms to the dictionary, but I'd argue these are concerns worth considering for those who actually could.
To my knowledge, atara's thread is as far as the question that's essentially being asked in this thread has been taken on Bluelight. If anybody knows of other similar discussions, here or elsewhere, or would like to use this thread as an opportunity to further the line of inquiry, I'd be interested in reading/participating.

EDIT: I've got to say Google search of Bluelight is pretty great. I came up with the following search simply using a single statistically unlikely phrase I recalled using in the searched for thread along with terms I knew appeared in it and it showed up as the top result: salvia dissociative "identity substitution" neuropharmacology site:bluelight.org
 
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Can't really compare them either. They are the two opposite ends of the spectrum. Im talking about Psychedelics vs Dissociatives.

Psychedelics one would experience sensory overload, birth(diminished ego back to normal)

Dissociatives one would experience sensory shutdown, death(extreme dissociation)
 
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