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'Good', 'Bad', 'Clean', ACID

I recently came across a supplier of acid whose acid, though very high quality, seems to be slightly different in effects from all of my previous LSD experiences and vastly different my DOx blotter experiences. The supposed LSD produced visuals at a very low level of intensity (which is far from all my previous experiences with LSD). It was also surprising anxiolytic at high doses where CEV's were constant and extremely vivid. The head space wasn't as out there as all my other previous experiences as well, even after consuming 4 hits (the visuals were absolutely insane). There are reports from multiple who also consumed this blotter that it was very visual, even with one hit. It felt like an ergoline, but it just felt different from LSD.
 
Users reports of effects ARE hard scientific evidence when you are dealing with pharmacology, medicine and psychoactive substances, and it is incorrect to just ignore them all and assume they tell you nothing about the substance, wad them up and throw them in the trash.
But what about the earlier posted quote from the chemist relaying his experience with consumers eating the exact same batch of acid on differently designed blotters and reporting consistent and distinct psychological effects for one design over the other? They were just as convinced as you. What about the extraordinary variability in visuals, euphoria, and other experiential qualities in the same dosage of the same batch of an RC chemical like DPT or aMT, or whatever? I've had wildly divergent experiences with 50 mg of DPT intramuscularly from the same bag, and similar diversity of experience between trips is reported by the wide majority of users. The inherent variance in the human systems impacting a trip is incomparably greater than that in a tiny blotter intended by its producer to be LSD. So much so, it could be plausibly argued, that the explained variance by the human system overshadows the tiny amount (if any) explained by the inherent physical properties of a blotter to make the contributions of that blotter to experience effectively insignificant.
 
It felt like an ergoline, but it just felt different from LSD.

Oh, no way man, you are totally nuts and obviously an extremely suggestible person who had picked up a subconscious tendency to believe that this blotter was going to feel different than any other you ever did, that's why it felt different.
THE ONLY THING THAT CAN POSSIBLY EVER BE ON A BLOTTER IS 100% PURE CLEAN UNADULTERATED LSD-25!

8) :\ =D (Just kidding... obviously I am just making fun of the bizarre religion being espoused above.)
 
I wish I could use my universities facilities to test some of this acid floating around. With out any sort of analysis, it is just all hearsay.
 
I think we need to get what we're talking about straight. What SomeKindaLove was talking about, alternate lysergamides, is not unclean LSD, they are different chemicals entirely intended by the chemist to be similar but physically distinct from LSD. The scope of this discussion has to be confined to syntheses intended to be LSD, which contain LSD and some varying amount of impurities. Analytical data has already been provided for older sample of this type of product across a few decades indicating an overwhelming number of the samples are mostly LSD and iso-LSD, the latter of which has been tested up to 500 ug without showing any activity. Unless there is reason to believe a new synthesis method for producing LSD (NOT alternate lysergemides) has since been developed and widely used that produces novel highly potent psychoactive chemicals as unintended byproducts why shouldn't this older data be thought to be indicative of the constituents of LSD products produced today?
 
Oh, no way man, you are totally nuts and obviously an extremely suggestible person who had picked up a subconscious tendency to believe that this blotter was going to feel different than any other you ever did, that's why it felt different.
THE ONLY THING THAT CAN POSSIBLY EVER BE ON A BLOTTER IS 100% PURE CLEAN UNADULTERATED LSD-25!

8) :\ =D (Just kidding... obviously I am just making fun of the bizarre religion being espoused above.)
My position is that adulteration (by-products that effect the experience) is possible, but that what we know about people's experience could also be explained by psychological phenomena. Amusingly, given your accusation of religiousness (and dogmatic rejection of the alternative) against those who disagree with you on this point, you appear to reject the idea that a psychological explanation is even possible (in sane, intelligent users); and you employ the typical religious tactic of claiming that psychological explanations of their supposed spiritual experiences could only apply to mad or extremely suggestible people.

You are simply displaying ignorance of the psychological phenomena in question. Their effects are not confined to the gullible! :D
 
ETA: (This was in reply to a post by DH which appears to have disappeared now. He was objecting to an extreme claim that adulteration was impossible and all LSD was definitely LSD.)

But you seem also to be disagreeing with the much less extreme claim "Despite what people report feeling on various samples of LSD, this *might* not be a result of chemicals other than LSD, and could alternatively be explained by a combination of psychological effects." Or am I misunderstanding your position? Do you in fact accept this much more moderate claim?
 
1) Why "must" the discussion be confined to synthesis intended to be LSD? The originator of the thread did not specify that. I am pretty sure he was just referring to when you buy something offered as LSD, but it feels "dirty", what is going on? It could well be a DOx or something else. That's seems well within the definition of the topic's original question.

2) I am not denying that it could possibly be placebo effect. It definitely could be.

3) Maybe I am misunderstanding others' remarks, but I could have sworn that the idea that the "dirty acid" sensation is caused by some other checmical(s) besides LSD... was being totally dismissed as always wrong, and that these sensations are ALWAYS necessarily 100% of the time purely 100% the result of psychogenic placebo effects, and are NEVER the result of anything chemical going on.

Sorry if I was "extremifying" others' positions.
 
2) I am not denying that it could possibly be placebo effect. It definitely could be.
Cool, fair enough. I misread your ridiculing of the effect with
Oh, no way man, you are totally nuts and obviously an extremely suggestible person who had picked up a subconscious tendency to believe that this blotter was going to feel different than any other you ever did, that's why it felt different.
and your claim
I am not effected by the color or picture on the blotter.
as implying that you thought the effect(s) ('cos we're not just talking about placebo; confirmation bias, for example, could play a role too) could not explain your experience, or indeed the experience of anyone who isn't mad or stupid.
 
Can someone look up the publications about the analysis that showed the "overwhelming majority" of blotter is only LSD?

There was a citation of published results from 15-20 years ago of around 2000 hits. Well if that's the analysis being relied upon, 1) its quite old and 2) when you consider the number of hits consumed per year 2000-3000 is a VERY small percentage of the total.

I also see someone mentioning an analysis of 100-200 hits that they read about, which is such a low number compared to the millions sold every year as to be meaningless.

So we need clarity on the source(s) of this analysis/analyses that keeps being mentioned.

And we need a little clarity about the the origin of those tested hits. If that analysis came from hits in the the possession of LE, perhaps the courts systems did GC/MS analysis and if the hits came back not containing any LSD, they were tossed and the case dismissed.

Thus the collection of tested hit samples would be suffering from an extreme pre-selection bias, and the study cant be relied upon for any conclusions of any kind in the present debate.
 
Cool, fair enough. I misread your ridiculing of the effect with and your claim as implying that you thought the effect(s) ('cos we're not just talking about placebo; confirmation bias, for example, could play a role too) could not explain your experience, or indeed the experience of anyone who isn't mad or stupid.

I am not saying it could not in part be due to factors of psychogenic origin. Sure it could. Psychedelics can cause your brain to do all sorts of wild & unexpected things.

I was ridiculing what I had thought was some folks insistence that that is all it ever is, and that a chemical/pharmacological origin was essentially impossible.

If no one is claiming that <ducks under table and puts on Miss Emily Latella wig & librarian glasses>... "Never Mind!" :D
 
I am not saying it could not in part be due to factors of psychogenic origin. Sure it could. Psychedelics can cause your brain to do all sorts of wild & unexpected things.

I was ridiculing what I had thought was some folks insistence that that is all it ever is, and that a chemical/pharmacological origin was essentially impossible.

If no one is claiming that <ducks under table and puts on Miss Emily Latella wig & librarian glasses>... "Never Mind!" :D
It *might* be all it ever is. It *might* not be. But it being all it ever is (and wild and unexpected things aren't required: I'm talking about mundane, everyday psychological effects here, effects that affect our perception and judgment about all sorts of things, however experienced or knowledgeable or attentive or sceptical we are) requires, I'd argue, less additional assumptions than the dirty LSD hypothesis. There's room for debate, though, I agree, and - more so - room for proper empirical investigation. :)
 
I was ridiculing what I had thought was some folks insistence that that is all it ever is, and that a chemical/pharmacological origin was essentially impossible.

I wouldn't say it was impossible. But I'd say it was about as likely as winning the lottery and then being hit by a meteorite on the way home.

On the other hand, thinking you're having a "dirty trip" because you glance down and notice you havn't hoovered the carpet in 6 months is extremely likely.
 
I'm no chemist, but i'd guess that the odds of another psychoactive chemical that is active in the microgram range being accidentally produced during an LSD synthesis and making it onto blotter in active amounts is highly unlikely.

I wouldn't say it was impossible. But I'd say it was about as likely as winning the lottery and then being hit by a meteorite on the way home.
This seems like an accurate estimate of the odds, IMO

LSD analogues on the other hand could have been and possibly are in circulation as LSD, but I'd think there would be a market for them without having to be misrepresented as LSD, and probably a higher price, but hey, go figure. Also, based on the reports i've read in TiHKAL, I'd imagine that most of these would be less anxiogenic than LSD, but I'm sure there are some (whether they've been synthed & assayed, who knows) that are more anxiogenic than LSD
 
And you are absolutely sure that different sensations from LSD are purely down to what's on the blotter?

It's got nothing to do with your mood, whether the suns shining, your health, how you've been sleeping, whether you're tired, whether the place you're tripping is clean or dirty, the company you're in, how often you've been tripping?

Does a "dirty" trip stay "dirty" all the time? Say if you're in a messy house and you go outside into a beautiful nature spot do you think you'd still feel "dirty"? Could a "clean" trip feel "dirty" if you went and sat in a public shithouse that reeked of putrid shite?

To chime in, I am not 'sure' of this but yes basically the potential for physical side-effects has for me been consistent with different blotter batches.
I also agree that these side effects seem to remind me of morning glories or HBWRs and also of a very weak version of the side-effects sometimes described by ergot intoxication.
Mainly what I am talking about is a feeling like an electric charge that causes cramps or pain from tightened tendons and what seems to me like a nasty feeling on the peripheral nerves. This, as opposed to the feeling from 'good' pure acid that is extremely transparent and virtually free of physical side-effects!
But it does not stay peripheral completely, it can ruin the crystallized clear headspace of a good trip but I would say it is definitely very different from negative psychological symptoms, it's not fear or confusion spiraling out of control.

I don't know where you guys get your claims about these extremely tiny chances of this being a chemical or pharmacological phenomenon... but they sound a bit arrogant to me to presume something like that just because it has not been discovered, and it is always easy to blame suggestibility and placebo.

I am not sure and I don't think I can make a good estimation about chances of the exact cause, also until we know more I think it's worth nothing to wager. It's better to accept that there are two sides to this and two possibilities and that it's just the way it is that we don't know (yet).

If LSD itself is as potent as it is, and some ergolines approach this - why would it be so hard to believe that there is a degradation product or synthesis byproduct that can have potent adverse neurological effects producing exactly what I described.
How would you explain the difference in appreciation between this dark amber acid and high quality acid?
There is a whole piece of this on erowid, I think it makes more sense for my story than that of psychological causes.

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_writings1.shtml

The various ergot compounds, cycloalkamides of LSD and lumi-LSD plug into the same receptor sites as LSD does. But these compounds evidently don't turn the lock in the smooth, clean manner of LSD. Many of these compounds have effects similar to symptoms of ergot poisoning - the St. Anthony's Fire of the Middle Ages. These symptoms include inflamed joints, headaches, nausea, and hot and cold flashes.

Isomers of LSD are another possible contaminant and indeed are reported present by the drug analysis groups. There are four possible isomers of LSD, but only the d-lysergic acid diethyl amide form is active. The other rotation forms - l-lysergic acid diethyl amide, d and l iso-lysergic acid diethyl amide (contrary to recent reports!) - are inactive. they have no pharmacological role, except possibly as a catalyst for some latent effect of LSD, or to block the action of LSD at the receptor site.

If a contaminated batch of diethyl amine is used in the manufacturing process, or if the chemist purposely decides to make them, LSD homologues might be present in the final crystal. Molecules similar to LSD in structure but with some addition, subtraction or rearrangement of action, homologues plug into the same keyhole that LSD does.

Some of these homologues have profound effects that vary in course of action and potency. For example, the strongest of he homologues, ALD-52, has 91 percent the potency of LSD and is said to have a slightly different effect upon the mind (there is some dispute about this).

However, as Albert Hofmann puts it in "Drugs Affecting the Central Nervous System": LSD has the highest and most specific effect and may therefore be considered as the genuine prototype of psychotomimetic compounds."

Thus, all impurities found in LSD are like imperfect keys. Such substances as ergot alkaloids, cycloalkamides and other lysergic acid derivatives, and LSD homologues and lumi-LSD are drugs that might open the door part way. But only pure LSD opens the doors of perception all the way.

Here is an idea:
why doesn't everyone who can get 'good' or 'clean' acid as well as 'bad', 'dirty' acid construct their own blind tests? Especially those who trip a lot and want to sacrifice some experiences that could have been all had with good acid for the sake of science (or at least an attempt at an experiment)...
You let someone you know put hits in envelopes marked with numbers, and let that person write down which number is what kind. Then when you want to trip simply take an envelope and close your eyes and eat the trip without looking at the print. If the doses are not the same multiply one of the number of hits to normalize that but actually thats no good because you can feel that in your mouth (number of hits).
Anyway I hope you get the point: after each trip you evaluate the effects on body and mind, and make a prediction. Then see if it coincides with the actual type of acid.
 
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electric charge that causes cramps or pain from tightened tendons and what seems to me like a nasty feeling on the peripheral nerves. This, as opposed to the feeling from 'good' pure acid that is extremely transparent and virtually free of physical side-effects!

lsd can cause vasoconstriction - an individual's diet can probably add to or subtract from that...
 
I recently came across a supplier of acid whose acid, though very high quality, seems to be slightly different in effects from all of my previous LSD experiences and vastly different my DOx blotter experiences. The supposed LSD produced visuals at a very low level of intensity (which is far from all my previous experiences with LSD). It was also surprising anxiolytic at high doses where CEV's were constant and extremely vivid. The head space wasn't as out there as all my other previous experiences as well, even after consuming 4 hits (the visuals were absolutely insane). There are reports from multiple who also consumed this blotter that it was very visual, even with one hit. It felt like an ergoline, but it just felt different from LSD.

This is a perfect description of the N-alkylated lysergamides I described above.
 
Here is an idea:
why doesn't everyone who can get 'good' or 'clean' acid as well as 'bad', 'dirty' acid construct their own blind tests? Especially those who trip a lot and want to sacrifice some experiences that could have been all had with good acid for the sake of science (or at least an attempt at an experiment)...
You let someone you know put hits in envelopes marked with numbers, and let that person write down which number is what kind. Then when you want to trip simply take an envelope and close your eyes and eat the trip without looking at the print. If the doses are not the same multiply one of the number of hits to normalize that but actually thats no good because you can feel that in your mouth (number of hits).
Anyway I hope you get the point: after each trip you evaluate the effects on body and mind, and make a prediction. Then see if it coincides with the actual type of acid.

if you could get hold of 100% pharmaceutical quality d-LSD with which to form a reference standard for effect, this might be a useful starting point for a double-blind test. being able to mix up some "dirty acid" with common synthesis byproducts and the n-alkyl homologs (lysergic acid monoethylamide, iso-LSD, etc) would increase the utility of the test.

but suggesting any kind of "blind" test with street blotter has far too much variability to be considered reproducible.
 
I don't see what the problem would be. As far as I can see, this would be a reasonable way of testing the claim that people can tell what batch of acid they've taken based on its subjective effects (e.g. with one batch being dirtier than the other). The obvious thing to do, even. Certainly something like that would be needed to validate such claims.
 
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