Ethnobotanicals Ghost pipe (Monotropa uniflora) - does anyone have any experience?

[G_Chem]

A couple more questions..

How soon until guy freaking out came to a good place after dosing? How did your friend make her tincture/ratios?

The thing I like about this too is how it seemed to spin the experience in a positive light, that’s huge IMO and would make it a much better substitute for benzos.

-Gc

 

[Xorkoth]

I really wish I would’ve actually read the OP first but have been very busy. Absolutely fascinating stuff and will now be included in my festival gear as a potential way to stop a bad trip. As you know, recently I was turned down on my offer of benzos when two girls were freaking out but maybe a natural tincture would have been better received.

I’d like to know more. It seems your friend is already well versed on use of this nature. I have read multiple sources stating Ghost Pipe is good for such conditions.

Has she used it for this purpose before? Any and all details on past experiences would be greatly appreciated. Really cool shit @Xorkoth excited to hear more

Got a festival tomorrow, my Ghost Pipe tincture will be coming along. I too also made mine of above ground parts of the plant, tincture was made with 50/50 water/ethanol where just enough liquid covered the plant material. I’ve had it sitting for a couple years now.

-GC

I don't know if my friend had used it previously for that purpose, or if she just had read or heard about it from someone else. I was amazed at how well it worked, I really didn't expect such a dramatic turnaround. Granted, it was DMT and he'd been in it for 5 minutes or so already, but he was also on mushrooms when he smoked it. It was more than clear that the ghost pipe had a dramatic effect on him. He didn't claim to feel any other effects, other than going from absolutely terrified, to exuberant with how profoundly he had been altered, and how such a thing was possible.

A couple more questions..

How soon until guy freaking out came to a good place after dosing? How did your friend make her tincture/ratios?

The thing I like about this too is how it seemed to spin the experience in a positive light, that’s huge IMO and would make it a much better substitute for benzos.

-Gc

It happened almost immediately, which is what was so crazy. She squirted a full dropper into his mouth and within 5-10 seconds he leaped up and said "OH MY GOD that's disgusting tasting!" (which I disagree, but then, he thinks mushrooms taste horrific and I think they taste kinda good). Then right after that he stopped looping and shouting about how he was dying. He was still a little shaken up and confused, but I'd say within 2-3 minutes he was talking clearly and had a huge grin on his face, and thanking me and her for being there for him, and then we proceeded to talk about his trip for the next couple of hours. The rest of his night went great, he was still tripping on mushrooms and the DMT afterglow and we hung out and smoked weed and listened to the end of the set of the band that was playing.

I don't know about her ratio. She found the ghost pipe like a month before and stuck it in vodka, but I don't know anything about how much plant material to vodka there was. I know the tincture was moderately purple, but less dark than mine that I posted a photo of in the OP.

For that matter, I didn't weigh the total plant matter or measure the vodka for mine, either. I wish I had, though, in retrospect.

It must be very potent, because the dosage is between 3 drops and 1mL of tincture. But on the other hand, I have read mentions of traditional use of it involving people cooking and eating whole stalks. Which seems like it would be a massive dose. I know for my tincture, I had 6 smallish stalks in about 100mL of vodka. Meaning one stalk would be about ~17 mL, which is 17 times the maximum dose the literature recommends. But maybe cooking it degrades whatever is in it? I'm not even sure why you would want to cook and eat it, I don't think it tastes that bad, but also not tasty.

 

[Listening]

I came across some Ghost Pipe about a year ago on a hike. Beautiful plant.

One thing to keep in mind: While not officially endangered, this plant is considered "at risk" in many states/provinces. Don't pick it.

 

[G_Chem]

I came across some Ghost Pipe about a year ago on a hike. Beautiful plant.

One thing to keep in mind: While not officially endangered, this plant is considered "at risk" in many states/provinces. Don't pick it.

This is a good point I forgot on. As someone that travels the woods often they only grow prolifically in certain rare climates. I’ve seen them maybe 3-4 times total in my life and always only 1-3 stalks.

The time I collected I only took 1 of the 2 stalks. I have heard stories though of people finding patches with maybe 50-100, but that’s like finding the holy grail.

-GC

 

[Xorkoth]

I came across some Ghost Pipe about a year ago on a hike. Beautiful plant.

One thing to keep in mind: While not officially endangered, this plant is considered "at risk" in many states/provinces. Don't pick it.

This is true is many areas. The first time I found it, I had to, I had just encountered it in the dramatic way I described the weekend prior. I took 5 stalks that time, out of about 20. The second time, it was an accident, I was clearing a pile of leaves while taking out a fence and came up with a handful of ghost pipe.

 

[G_Chem]

Alright I gave it a try last night…. Overall wasn’t a fan sadly.

Last night I was slightly agitated from using Maca and fair amount of coffee that day so decided to try this out before bed. Took 3 drops of my homemade tincture and kept going about my nighttime routine.

Nearly immediately I felt a disconnection of sorts, kind of like a NMDA antagonist but more akin to just a lobotomy. I couldn’t form words quickly and at one point almost dipped my hand in my wife’s drinking thinking it was oil.

Once I laid down I found some sedation present but was still agitated and ended up eating some cannabis edible to further sleep along and because I had a really sour stomach from something I ate.

Slept very deeply, each time I got up it was like my eyes were crossed and wouldn’t easily uncross. Likely a combination of the edible causing these effects though.

I also felt some interesting bodily effects, I wrote them down as I knew my dissociation wouldn’t allow me to remember them.

-warm forehead sensation
-disconnected
-cleared sinuses
-bodily warmth
-head tingly
-lazy movement
-sedation of body

At the end it didn’t reduce my agitation from what I took but something tells me that disconnected mindset could work well in a psychedelic crisis scenario. Beyond that I’m not sure how much more I can utilize this substance, interesting nonetheless.

-GC

 

[Pfafffed]

I did some digging finally. Nothing on Dr Duke's Phytochemical Database, unfortunately.

So, ghost pipe is related to rhododendron. Rhododendron species can contain grayanotoxins, the active ingredient in mad honey. There is a report that ghost pipe contains grayanotoxins, but it's from 140+ years ago. And honestly, the effects don't sound like grayanotoxins. But it's possible.

Really, they sound more like either placebo, or like a dissociative. I'd be interested in getting it analyzed. It might be worth emailing Energy Control and seeing if they would be willing to do a quantitative analysis on an ethanolic extract, since we suspect that's plenty active. I read on Reddit that one provider wouldn't analyze it, but EC has analyzed herbal extracts before...but they probably knew what they were looking for. We could at least rule out grayanotoxins.

My friend offered me some tincture last night, so I may swing by their place in a couple of weeks to pick some up to bioassay myself.

 

[G_Chem]

Honestly it felt like Grayanotoxins from what I’ve read.. I think the very noticeable decrease in blood pressure seals it for me. Maybe there’s other psychoactive components but I’m willing to bet the bulk is due to Grayanotoxins present.

I find a lot of drugs pleasant that other people don’t, this wasn’t one of them. And definitely far from placebo.

-GC

 

[Neuroborean]

HOWEVER, they contain the SAME toxins as Rhododendron do.

there's an interesting plant that it's used in Siberia, Mongolia...
Rhododendron adamsii. There's not so much worthy info in the net, as far as I researched,
the smell of the plant (leaves and stems) is wonderful, full of nuances, it's parfum material.
There's an study comparing its adaptogenic effect with rhodiola rosea, seems to work better with 50% methanolic than with less or more solvent.
I had some tea of it (piney, honey-like and delicious) that wasn't very strong and probably my batch is weak (I don't trust that vendor anymore) but I think it has some real effects, like increased wakefullness.
It was used for long days with physical efforts like not sleeping and moving a lot.
I read (and this is the interesting point) that it was used by shamans to induce visions, when taken in big amounts.
Maybe it's ethnobotanical "fake news" but it may be true, it's difficult to tell since the amount of actives in white wings/sagan dalya (their popular names) are astounding, more than 150.... and a lot of new compounds. Sadly there's barely no info..
Just for its flavour, scent and beautiful color of the tea is worth a try, in fact I'm gonna do a tea now...

Not sure if it has grayanotoxins but I never felt any effect commonly related to grayanotoxins, the times I used it

Edit: having a closer look into the paper I found that the period on the year on which it's collected change a lot the extracts potency, from having barely no effect to an effect more potent than R. Rosea.
I link the paper here, for those interested:

Sagan Dalya Tea, a New "Old" Probable Adaptogenic Drug: Metabolic Characterization and Bioactivity Potentials of Rhododendron adamsii Leaves - PubMed

Adams' rhododendron (<i>Rhododendron adamsii</i> Rehder) or Sagan Dalya tea is a famous Siberian evergreen medical plant of the Ericaceae family used in traditional medicines of Buryats, Yakuts, and Mongols as a tonic, stimulant, and adaptogenic drug. The high popularity of <i>R. adamsii</i>...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Xorkoth]

It's crazy that it could be related to rhododendron, as it could not possibly look or behave more dissimilarly.

 

[Pfafffed]

there's an interesting plant that it's used in Siberia, Mongolia...
Rhododendron adamsii. There's not so much worthy info in the net, as far as I researched,
the smell of the plant (leaves and stems) is wonderful, full of nuances, it's parfum material.
There's an study comparing its adaptogenic effect with rhodiola rosea, seems to work better with 50% methanolic than with less or more solvent.
I had some tea of it (piney, honey-like and delicious) that wasn't very strong and probably my batch is weak (I don't trust that vendor anymore) but I think it has some real effects, like increased wakefullness.
It was used for long days with physical efforts like not sleeping and moving a lot.
I read (and this is the interesting point) that it was used by shamans to induce visions, when taken in big amounts.
Maybe it's ethnobotanical "fake news" but it may be true, it's difficult to tell since the amount of actives in white wings/sagan dalya (their popular names) are astounding, more than 150.... and a lot of new compounds. Sadly there's barely no info..
Just for its flavour, scent and beautiful color of the tea is worth a try, in fact I'm gonna do a tea now...

Not sure if it has grayanotoxins but I never felt any effect commonly related to grayanotoxins, the times I used it

Edit: having a closer look into the paper I found that the period on the year on which it's collected change a lot the extracts potency, from having barely no effect to an effect more potent than R. Rosea.
I link the paper here, for those interested:

Sagan Dalya Tea, a New "Old" Probable Adaptogenic Drug: Metabolic Characterization and Bioactivity Potentials of Rhododendron adamsii Leaves - PubMed

Adams' rhododendron (<i>Rhododendron adamsii</i> Rehder) or Sagan Dalya tea is a famous Siberian evergreen medical plant of the Ericaceae family used in traditional medicines of Buryats, Yakuts, and Mongols as a tonic, stimulant, and adaptogenic drug. The high popularity of <i>R. adamsii</i>...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

No, no grayanotoxins in sagan daliya. I don't find it to be adaptogenic either. I find it to be more of a weird stimulant, much like modafanil is a weird sort of stimulant. It's okay, but it's not something I find myself reaching for much. It's scent and flavor are very pleasant, though.

 

[G_Chem]

I think while this plant doesn’t seem super recreational to me, it does have quite the unique pharmacological profile. I’ve never felt quite so disconnected before which could be great in a tripping mindset.

I plan to try this once more while under the influence of a psychedelic to see if it does indeed cancel out the effects.

-GC

 

[Neuroborean]

No, no grayanotoxins in sagan daliya. I don't find it to be adaptogenic either. I find it to be more of a weird stimulant, much like modafanil is a weird sort of stimulant. It's okay, but it's not something I find myself reaching for much. It's scent and flavor are very pleasant, though.

I thought the same, but I still have doubts about the real pharmacology of that plant, since there's strange reports and in some pages it's listed that it has hallucinogenic effects, but probably is in a way that no one would like. In my case I like the plant, I'm starting to understand their effects better, I'm using bigger amounts than normally recommended (no side-effects felt yet). I would call them a "dreamy and sparkly wakefullness" I like it to be honest, yesterday I was very very active and efficient/focused, (surely mucuna and huperzine a helped a lot but it wasn't only that). Surely it's not recreational in the sense of euphoria, but it's neither useless.

Adams rhododendron in culture. Healing properties of sagan dail and methods of its use Seedlings of medicinal plants Rhododendron adams

This web is interesting since is russian and one should expect more "reliable" info from the "native" parts than from elsewhere. According to this article it seems that shamans used it and overdoses can cause hallucinations (maybe because of low dose grayanotoxin accumulation??). Perhaps is just bullshit:

"Exceeding medicinal doses is also fraught with consequences. In case of an overdose, hallucinations, impaired sound and light perception are observed, breath holding and problems with urination may occur. Repeatedly exceeding the dosage of alcohol balm will cause failure of kidney function."

"Overdose causes hallucinations, overexcitation, urinary retention. If an overdose has been observed more than once, there may be impaired renal function."

Do you know if those side-effects and toxicodrome is similar or the same as grayanotoxin or maybe it's cause by a myriad of odd compounds?

Oh! I found this..:

http://www.davidpublisher.com/Public/uploads/Contribute/55dae29cb7467.pdf

This says it has grayanotoxins (andromedotoxin) but in negligible amounts.

May be a bit off topic but wow! such a wonderful mix yesterday...:
-saffron: 12-15 strands
-sagan dalya: quite a big amount, almost a handful (since I know this batch it's not so potent)
-cymbopogon citratus: half-a-handful
All in tea, for 30 minutes in low heat and covered.

I felt definite body calming, mentally stimulating and antidepressant effects, different than any of the plants on their own.

 

[Pfafffed]

I couldn't say for sure. It's an under-researched plant, and I've learned not to trust the literature in the field unless there are several corroborating papers. A lot of the older stuff is suspect.

When I was looking into it a few years ago, it took me forever to find sources I thought reliable stating that R. adamsii didn't contain grayanotoxins.

 

[Neuroborean]

I couldn't say for sure. It's an under-researched plant, and I've learned not to trust the literature in the field unless there are several corroborating papers. A lot of the older stuff is suspect.

When I was looking into it a few years ago, it took me forever to find sources I thought reliable stating that R. adamsii didn't contain grayanotoxins.

yeah man,
but that's the point, if it doesn't contain grayanotoxins then what's the potential for it to be "psychedelic" or similar in high doses? it has a lot of different compounds but most doesn't seem very active. I will buy a couple different batches and try them in increasingly higher doses and methods (solvents), just to see what it can do.
The paper I linked isn't very old, 2014, but maybe it depends on the batch and time/place it's collected.
yesterday I took it before sleeping (a second wash) and had a crazy dream, very long, almost lucid and totally amazing. I took other stuff also but this dream was something else and different from others I had.

 

[Pfafffed]

Qualitative analysis of Rhododendron adamsii extract.

Sagan Dalya Tea, a New "Old" Probable Adaptogenic Drug: Metabolic Characterization and Bioactivity Potentials of Rhododendron adamsii Leaves - PubMed

Adams' rhododendron (<i>Rhododendron adamsii</i> Rehder) or Sagan Dalya tea is a famous Siberian evergreen medical plant of the Ericaceae family used in traditional medicines of Buryats, Yakuts, and Mongols as a tonic, stimulant, and adaptogenic drug. The high popularity of <i>R. adamsii</i>...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Xorkoth]

Nice link! Not the same plant though, right? It's about a Siberian evergreen called Rhododendron adamsii, as a stimulant/tonic/adaptogen. Not ghost pipe. Unless I'm missing something, I only just started reading it.

 

[Pfafffed]

Oh sorry, yeah this was in reply to @Neuroborean 's post. I should have used the reply feature.

 

[The_Twisted_Chemist]

I just looked and there is not a single report of death or hospitalization from the use of Ghost Pipe. On the contrary there are many for Mad Honey. I’m gonna go out on a limb and say this plant is safe to try in cautious doses. I’ll likely give my tincture a try here soon if no one else does, the purple color seems inviting lol.



If you look at Pharmacopeia’s from the early 1900’s there’s tons of herbal medicines used that have been washed from our repertoire due to the simple fact of them being un-copyright-able. I actually have one from 1903 I believe, found it in an antique book store. I should look and see if Ghost Pipe is in there, this edition gives nothing but how to produce medicine from said plants.

That said we need to take these with a grain of salt as they also thought mercury salts were a good medicine back in those days as well.

-GC

Grayanotoxins are produced by Rhododendron species and other plants in the family Ericaceae. Honey made from the nectar and so containing pollen of these plants also contains grayanotoxins and is commonly referred to as mad honey.

It's basically the same thing as mad honey. Same toxins. Definitely needs more research to consider safe as far as HR goes

 

[Nas47]

Read somewhere,that in nectar of some rhododendron species contain enough amount of oxycodon.....which is strange,'cause it's semisynthetic derivate of thebaine.....never heard,that it existing in nature in pure form