Friends who trip and are super vague

[Solipsis]

Hey guys

First and foremost: this thread is not meant to disparage anyone!

That both smoking weed and tripping can attract and involve a lot of vague thinking and talking should not be a surprise to anyone, and that's fine. In my experience, sometimes it can lead to lateral thinking and creative ideas, oftentimes they are incoherent fantasies that don't really hold up much beyond hyperassociativity, hypermnesia and that sort of thing.

I have/had a friend who smokes a lot of weed and also trip sometimes but not hardcore, preferring lower doses and not venturing that deep into RC land. I used to know a lot of people who smoke lots of weed or take other drugs, are peculiar, interesting, you name it. But this one friend I am talking about was really something else, because when I talk with him I continuously have trouble following what he is trying to say because it's so vague. Sure some people find expressing themselves more difficult than others do, but what you talk like does heavily reflect your inner world. I just really think that it is not a person who should be smoking lots of weed or tripping but unlike in other cases not because of risk of psychosis. Then again people can lead happy lives in all sorts of ways so who am I to say that he should make sense (lol)?
He usually insists that he is happy and likes to think about vague ideas, possibilities, superstitions rather than truth. But he also has issues, so I really wonder if he's doing himself any favors. I guess at the very least it is not helping him keep friends who like people to make sense, but I'm just one person and a hyperrational one at that, to be fair.

So you see, it's complex! I don't see him anymore because of long distances and not really being that comfortable anyway, let alone to keep some long distance friendship going. Too bad, good person, but things just work out that way sometimes.

Do you know anyone like that, what (stories) can you tell about vague ideas, what they mean for a person's life or relate to happiness, do you think it's necessarily unhealthy at some point? Asking this I realize that it very much depends on the person, their functioning and happiness, but still, penny for your thoughts.

Cause the only thing I can be jealous of is if some beliefs can make a person happier while being harmless, but it's very hard to believe some things anymore for me. Not saying that I know the truth about shit, but it's skepticism that can prevent this.
Beyond that I think I highly prefer vague thinking to stay hypothetical and creative and not affect my ideas about how things are too much. When I tripped on acid on a weekly basis for a year I became severely anti-skeptical and spent a lot of time thinking about e.g. how quantum mechanics relate to psychology and other things, not the science though but more the Deepak Chopra nonsense (not that I ever paid attention to that guy particularly, I mean that in retrospect it's the same kind of mistaking thinking that he also practices. There is nothing wrong with spirituality, but there are limits to what you can pretend to use in a scientific argument, epistemologically speaking.

edit: Oh I might have sinned since this possibly belongs in Mental Health! Self-report? jk

 

[pupnik]

we talk freely about synesthesia which increases a great deal when consuming shrooms, weed or acid etc. due to longer fading of sensory (and thought) signal pulse trains in the brain.

that each impulse (in the stoned brain) lasts longer promotes more overlapping and forces a kind of overflow-integration upon all mental content.

if we equate the memory of a sensation with the original sensation itself (on another site someone recently posted about a new kind of brain scanning called Magnetoencephalography the use of which further verifies this observation of location based brain activity), then we have the tools to discuss a variety of synesthesia that includes thought overflowing into other thoughts including thoughts that have gestural or sensory attributes bleeding across eachother over several moments of experience.

When you experience this you do not question what you are thinking or feeling because it is 100% real or as real as the ground beneath your feet and the air that you breathe even if the time line sequence of events is undiscernable.

rather than foggy thought it is a thought overlay collage (from several moments) that bears chimeric resemblance to poetry and hallucination since it has sensation, emotion, and gesture embedded in it inseparably. Add in the spooky deja vu or sychronicity effect of time sequence distinction loss and everything seems not only real but ominous - and this introduces delusion.

what to do about it? Well I think the main thing is to watch it and enjoy it for what it is, and leave it in the general category of inspirations, or thought bouquets which is what they fundamentally are.

I guess your friend's head is totally full of flowers like that.

 

[psy997]

I think while on some levels what you speak of is harmless Solipsis, the next step is always expression and formulation. The stage in which I find myself intuiting new ideas and connections is most of the time vague, nuanced, and mushy if you will. But as is the case with understanding, while it may benefit your self to have had the realization, to be unable to share is to not only alienate your existence from others by varying magnitudes, but also a bastardization of what we're here to do in regards to sharing, learning, and growing together.

 

[Solipsis]

Thanks for your ideas on the matter. Yeah I think there are some flow-ers in his head, and I know what that's like. I used to smoke plenty of weed, daily as well, but it scared the shit out of me when I quit because you get so used to the haziness. Since then I really don't want to be like that all the time, the main reason isn't even that it's not always the most adequate way to be but that you don't realize the difference.

I suppose if talking about beliefs, even religious ones, there is some similarity because regardless of what is believed or the credibility of it, it strikes me that from within that frame of mind it's incredibly hard and usually perhaps impossible to step out of it and really question it, though here I am talking about believing past some apparent point of no return. Sure there are plenty of people who believe religiously but have doubts, but plenty others don't and they make that clear through words and actions.

Not sure if you're talking about brain scanning and imaging of cross-chatter activity to detect synaesthesia or to compare the similarities between an actual experienced and remembrance, which indeed have been found to be very similar. Or the technique that lets us see vaguely on a screen what the person is supposed to be visually perceiving...

@psy: had this window open an hour ago and forgot to post..

In response to your post: I agree, good point; while beliefs and ideas can certainly be personal, I think if you want to talk about it with other people, express yourself and share your ideas it is not only alienating if they don't come across or are not accepted as plausible or knowable, but just like failing peer review it can imply something about your way of thinking. Namely that you're either "ahead" of other people, not better or worse but coherent without being acknowledged. Happened to plenty of revolutionary thinkers / scientists. Still I think there tend to be 'signs on the walls' that you're on to something. Or the other reason is that you are more or less delusional.

Not sure what it says about a person if they choose to be delusional, and what part is necessarily involuntary.

Anyway I like philosophy almost as much as science and don't think I am a one-track-mind guy, if someone tries to 'think big' but fails to engage in some nice dialectic discourse it's frustrating to everyone. It's another thing if they have no interest in sharing their personal beliefs. Maybe it's just pretty hard to not apply your beliefs to your life and conversations.

I do wish I could find more consolation in self-reassurance type illusions.

 

[Muzda Jonxx]

What you're talking about here is the precise reason I quit the weed some 15ish years ago. I felt vague even to my own self.

Take TV as an example. I'd sit down to attempt to watch something interesting. 5 minutes in something I'd see on the screen would send my thought off onto a tangent. Before I knew it, 15 further minutes had been spent going on ever more lateral tangents that ultimately led nowhere. I'd attempt to focus on the TV programme again, only to discover I had no idea what's occurring because I spent the last 15 minutes unraveling nothing in my head.

I think this state of mind is harmless once in a while, but can be a real problem when it starts spilling over into a 24/7 state of mind.

 

[pupnik]

@Solipsis - that was a good link you had opened, I especially like where the cat vision thing is going as regards real time extraction from the cortex of contents. It has to develop further before we can peek into someone else's foggy notions and see the phantasms that make it so.

@Muzda - while knowing what technically affects the brain is great, being stuck with tangent soup for your thought stream can be very difficult, and quitting any habit that keeps you in the soup is the right thing to do. this takes real dedication.

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

@solipsis have a look at Prometheus Rising by Robert Anton Wilson.

 

[phuckingnutz]

What you're talking about here is the precise reason I quit the weed some 15ish years ago. I felt vague even to my own self.

Take TV as an example. I'd sit down to attempt to watch something interesting. 5 minutes in something I'd see on the screen would send my thought off onto a tangent. Before I knew it, 15 further minutes had been spent going on ever more lateral tangents that ultimately led nowhere. I'd attempt to focus on the TV programme again, only to discover I had no idea what's occurring because I spent the last 15 minutes unraveling nothing in my head.

I think this state of mind is harmless once in a while, but can be a real problem when it starts spilling over into a 24/7 state of mind.

It IS harmless, it's called daydreaming man...

 

[Muzda Jonxx]

@Solipsis - that was a good link you had opened, I especially like where the cat vision thing is going as regards real time extraction from the cortex of contents. It has to develop further before we can peek into someone else's foggy notions and see the phantasms that make it so.

@Muzda - while knowing what technically affects the brain is great, being stuck with tangent soup for your thought stream can be very difficult, and quitting any habit that keeps you in the soup is the right thing to do. this takes real dedication.

Dedication is one way of putting it. I call it a balancing act. Basically, the negative side effects of weed outweighed the benefits, so it was time to part ways with Mary J. I still love a good trip, although these days I stick to the proper hallucinogens, once in a while. That way I get the best of both worlds. If I go too long without a good trip I go too far the other way, my thoughts not lateral enough.

 

[pupnik]

lateral spin in just the right measure sounds good to me, though whirling dervishdom is fine too.

 

[Solipsis]

@solipsis have a look at Prometheus Rising by Robert Anton Wilson.

thanks i read it interesting models yes.

 

[Iron Lungs]

When I tripped on acid on a weekly basis for a year I became severely anti-skeptical and spent a lot of time thinking about e.g. how quantum mechanics relate to psychology and other things

Thats the spirit!

I tripped on 1p-LSD every week for ten weeks and I wasn't really aware until you mentioned in another thread some time ago about LSD affecting critical thinking and the penny dropped, made me see too much good in things and people and small gestures seem like big things its difficult to put into words but its a bit like a childs view of the world really accepting I suppose naive is the word


I have been a stoner all my adult life and I am 34 now so getting on for 20 years and I really like cannabis I don't think it has affected my critical thinking at all its sure made me more empathetic and more laid back ...... I will do it tomorrow type thinking =~)

I have always loved things like the paranormal since as long as I can remeber and far out thinking is really good, being able to talk about far out topics in public with confidence is a sign of a strong minded individual. Stoned ape theory anyone!


Pondering on how quantum mechanics links to psychology means that you must have a decent level of education in this area because its not actually that far out like other stuff its the pinacle of science!

I have done a lot of studying and maths is what I love not that it matters but I work in engineering , its all about small innovations I get paid to be wacky =~0

For me its all about the maths I love maths and have for a long time now it just gets better and better

I work with other strange ones too and we talk about crap all the time in an open office and what I find is deep down people want to talk about these things but never dare in case they get laughed at

No one can ever know anything (except that they are!)

My last trip I couldn't stop thinking about the whole schrodinger equation modelling everything from the hydrogen atom to the entire universe and how we are all expressions of the same equation, reality is a mega fractal feeding into itself! and all this other crazy shit that is actually true!, I think because I studied maths and actually really enjoy it that being able to appreciate it just feels amazing when you trip

its like some of the concepts in maths when you explain them well if there is such a thing as divine then thats it

Every circle contains Pi as a parameter but pi never ends, the universe isn't big enough to write down its exact value and its just a simple circle containing the most unbelievable complexity

The whole QM wave function collapse with an observer sounds wacky and it is wacky but how it links to Pantheism isnt totally isolated from reality

Far out stoners I know normally talk about faked moon landings 911 chemtrails and conspiracy type stuff which can itself be entertaining

There was a young man who said, "God
Must think it exceedingly odd
If he finds that this tree
Continues to be
When there's no one about in the Quad."

REPLY
Dear Sir:
Your astonishment's odd:
I am always about in the Quad.
And that's why the tree
Will continue to be,
Since observed by
Yours faithfully,
GOD.

George Berkeley

 

[Rampelflik]

No one can ever know anything (except that they are!)

My last trip I couldn't stop thinking about the whole schrodinger equation modelling everything from the hydrogen atom to the entire universe and how we are all expressions of the same equation, reality is a mega fractal feeding into itself! and all this other crazy shit that is actually true!, I think because I studied maths and actually really enjoy it that being able to appreciate it just feels amazing when you trip

Exactly this! Psychedelics somehow steer me in the direction of some kind of solipsistic pantheism. A dualistic fractal in superpostion, pulling itself up by its own bootstraps.

My conclusion always is that I can never be sure, and that this is for the best. The speculation is awesome though!

 

[Solipsis]

Just like there isn't a problem with loosening of some critical or skeptical thinking, becoming more open minded is not bad. The point is that there is such a thing as too much of that when you lose out of sight where you venture so far into speculation and vague beliefs land, that it becomes far too hopeless to do things like:
- determine what ideas have merit
- connecting new ideas to existing models (believe me, even revolutionary new ideas connect to existing models at least somehow, or it would have to be rare exceptions like extremely abstract fields of say mathematics about a whole new field of research)
- progress and express ideas
- distinguishing science from pseudoscience, junk science or non-science

There are actual scientific connections regarding quantum mechanics and psychology and at least in biological systems in general some quantum mechanics are already proven to essentially involve quantum mechanics in ways beyond the regular way macroscopic systems manifest from quantum mechanical systems.

The point though, is that I was really losing track of whether I was on to something or whether it was truly incoherent nonsensical ideas like only a stoned or tripped person might come up with. The point is not that everything should be scientific, but that it's a shame if you are deluded about whether something is scientific or sensical. It's similar to being able to separate fact from fiction, reality from fantasy, something else certain people may get troubles with if tripping too much but probably only if sensitive to it I think.

There is nothing wrong with fantasy, but if you start mistaking for reality you're going to have a bad time. See what I'm getting at? There is a difference between perception and misperception and following that it's quite wrong to think that everything you think of and experience is equally 'real'. It's a lofty idea and perhaps it can make a person feel noble that they are being very inclusive, but some percepts are just a result of guesswork of the mind which can be simply wrong.

I don't think things are dualistic or non-dualistic, those are attributes of our own human consideration rather than the world. The world is neither one thing or two things or many things, yet is all the above.. depending on how you look at it and what the topic at hand is, basically it depends on what exactly you're counting and the world is way to complex to laugh away that question. Metaphysical models are not true or untrue but best fit for describing a certain thing while not being best fit for something else.
But yes there are many recurrent patterns and similarities between microcosm and macrocosm, so that's what is fractal-like about it.

How is solipsistic pantheism not monotheism?

I think any kind of theism is misleading and that the divine nature of the world if you so call it rather reflects our profound appreciation for it rather than saying something pertinent about how it works. Instead it seems like a matter of perspective to me: what we are is part of the world, the world experiencing itself through one facet or perspective. Mystical experiences perhaps show us that there is such a thing as the world being conscious but with a loss of a singular perspective. What is left is just the matter of being. It's extremely abstract and nothing like we consider any normal kind of experience to be. So a rock is not alive or conscious, but as there is an aspect of 'being' to it, I guess that is the consciousness we share.

That's the best I can explain what consciousness is: that aspect of anything being and perhaps how that relates to the dynamics of any system. Self-consciousness though would only occur an extreme number of steps of complexity later and involve both feedback loops and recursion in the system.

That *might* be off-topic...

 

[pupnik]

you may have had a flashback

 

[psy997]

Damn good post Solipsis, thank you.

 

[Rampelflik]

Just like there isn't a problem with loosening of some critical or skeptical thinking, becoming more open minded is not bad. The point is that there is such a thing as too much of that when you lose out of sight where you venture so far into speculation and vague beliefs land, that it becomes far too hopeless to do things like:
- determine what ideas have merit
- connecting new ideas to existing models (believe me, even revolutionary new ideas connect to existing models at least somehow, or it would have to be rare exceptions like extremely abstract fields of say mathematics about a whole new field of research)
- progress and express ideas
- distinguishing science from pseudoscience, junk science or non-science

I agree. And I don't really mind if people seem to have vague esoteric beliefs. That is is their business. I know quite a few people who, in my opinion, go a bit overboard with stuff like astrology, hand-reading, believing prayers can influence others (well being), thinking that the lunar phases have any influence over their mood or life. Ik knew someone that thought psychedelics is the cure-all for whatever is troubling someone. He's dead now, and this believe of his had a hand in helping him get there.
Some are more rational then others in their reasoning as to why they believe such things. Few (read: none) can offer any relevant, peer-reviewed research to bolster their arguments (yet plenty of pseudo-scientific "research" that claims credibility though does not hold up to the scientific method). Some just can't follow the logic of the scientific method. Some can, yet still choose their own experience or believe over it.

Years back, I knew this guy who was extremely vague and hard to follow in what he was saying. And he was saying plenty. Stories without end that seemed to drift from one to the next without ever coming to some close or conclusion. That was him being (relatively) sober and normal. I would always politely listen and discuss some notions. Asking questions to try and clarify for myself what he was really getting at. Which was an uphill battle, I can tell you. After a while I just gave up. I of course would still acknowledge him and converse. The place where we always ran into each other closed years ago, and I never saw him again.

There are actual scientific connections regarding quantum mechanics and psychology and at least in biological systems in general some quantum mechanics are already proven to essentially involve quantum mechanics in ways beyond the regular way macroscopic systems manifest from quantum mechanical systems.

It stands to reason that the quantum world at the small scale, the building blocks of our scale and those scales above us (nano < micro < macrco < etc.), influence whatever it is incorporated in. At least it seems a logical thought. Got any sauce on that?

The point though, is that I was really losing track of whether I was on to something or whether it was truly incoherent nonsensical ideas like only a stoned or tripped person might come up with. The point is not that everything should be scientific, but that it's a shame if you are deluded about whether something is scientific or sensical. It's similar to being able to separate fact from fiction, reality from fantasy, something else certain people may get troubles with if tripping too much but probably only if sensitive to it I think.

There is nothing wrong with fantasy, but if you start mistaking for reality you're going to have a bad time. See what I'm getting at? There is a difference between perception and misperception and following that it's quite wrong to think that everything you think of and experience is equally 'real'. It's a lofty idea and perhaps it can make a person feel noble that they are being very inclusive, but some percepts are just a result of guesswork of the mind which can be simply wrong.

Agreed..

I don't think things are dualistic or non-dualistic, those are attributes of our own human consideration rather than the world. The world is neither one thing or two things or many things, yet is all the above.. depending on how you look at it and what the topic at hand is, basically it depends on what exactly you're counting and the world is way to complex to laugh away that question. Metaphysical models are not true or untrue but best fit for describing a certain thing while not being best fit for something else.
But yes there are many recurrent patterns and similarities between microcosm and macrocosm, so that's what is fractal-like about it.

An excellent point. And I agree. I think dualism is such a strong recurring thought/concept while philosophizing and/or tripping because it lies at the foundation at how we evolved to make sense of our surroundings. Something is a certain thing because it isn't the other things. And the more we keep naming new things, the more we know each individual thing because there is one new thing that it is not. But you are right. It might not be reasonable to say that reality is inherently dualstic, as this is just a human construct.

How is solipsistic pantheism not monotheism?

That is an excellent question. Maybe it's both at the same time, in superposition, until you try to measure it. ^^
Is there one universe? How about the many worlds theory? Does each distinct universe in the multiverse have a distinct consciousness? Is it perhaps in a bit of a solopsistic mood, or does it recognize the other universes as somehow equal, separate, yet connected things? Here enters the fractal once more. Turtles all the way down and such

I think any kind of theism is misleading and that the divine nature of the world if you so call it rather reflects our profound appreciation for it rather than saying something pertinent about how it works. Instead it seems like a matter of perspective to me: what we are is part of the world, the world experiencing itself through one facet or perspective. Mystical experiences perhaps show us that there is such a thing as the world being conscious but with a loss of a singular perspective. What is left is just the matter of being. It's extremely abstract and nothing like we consider any normal kind of experience to be. So a rock is not alive or conscious, but as there is an aspect of 'being' to it, I guess that is the consciousness we share.

That's the best I can explain what consciousness is: that aspect of anything being and perhaps how that relates to the dynamics of any system. Self-consciousness though would only occur an extreme number of steps of complexity later and involve both feedback loops and recursion in the system.

Yes, any theism, in my opinion, is misleading. We can only know we doubt, the rest is a question of probabilities.
I'm not sure if I would say the aspect of being is the consciousness we share in respect to a rock. It's existence that we share with the rock, not consciousness. Though I've often wondered about consciousness in other animals and even plants. There is an obvious difference between my (self-)consciousness, and the consciousness of an dog, ant or tree. Now I'm not saying trees have consciousness per se. But I wouldn't be surprised if some kind of plant, or maybe a fungal network of mycelium was discovered that might classify as being conscious. Maybe at different speeds than ours. I could imagine a tree experiencing the year as we do a day.


Complexity as the source of consciousness. I agree with you here. Also in respect to the feedback loops.
I like how how, as we scale up or down, there is plenty of complexity there! Even the simple building blocks turn out not to be so simple. Think of all the different kinds of fermions and bosons. Who knows what else is going on on that scale of reality.
What about non living entities that show "behaviors" that are produced by complex underlying mechanism? Social institutions like organised religion that adapts to its environment. Memes/Ideas that are "behaving" virus-like in their propagation. I'm not saying this is likely. I don't know. I'm having fun though!

Luckily there is plenty to have fun speculating about!

That *might* be off-topic...

I think you might be right.