Friend on 400mg Methodone/Day - Taper Help????

[ABetterWay]

Hi guys. I'm not sure if here or Other Drugs is the forum I should be using. If I'm incorrect to post here, I apologize.

First things first - no, this post isn't about me. I know SWIM ("Someone Who Isn't Me" for the newbies )crap isn't allowed here. I'm an h user and actually plan a kick next weekend so wish me luck and I may post here during that time.

On to my question.

I have a dear friend who estimates - yes, estimates - that they take about 400mg/day of methodone. They are in maintenance and get take homes. Those are gone quickly, and they find themself having to go into the "sales" business to support their habit.

They have considered asking the program to control their take homes more. Thats great, but at that amount per day, I don't see how that alone will help much, if at all. They have numerous connects and as I said, they have their methods of obtaining more and to be able to pay for it.

I've spoken with them about getting it to a more reasonable level per day. We talked about the "what ifs" - the worst case scenario being, they get in trouble (they are not stupid; they know there are many ways to get busted, you dont even have to do anything stupid to get busted, sometimes it's a little thing like a headlight being out that leads to other things, like,"Say, your pupils are not looking right...step out of the car..." ..etc; so just to give you the knowledge that this person isn't one of those dopes that think they're above the law, or too smart too ever be caught, etc. In other words, they are rational and reasonable, otherwise.), and if this happens, they will find themself kicking with no help on a cell floor from an ENORMOUS AMOUNT of methodone.

Obviously, they are concerned. But, you know how it is.... Once your problem is at that level, every spare second is spent making money for and obtaining more of the DOC (Drug Of Choice).

They want to taper. I have advised them to taper because you never know what could happen, plus just the fact that this is an enormous source of stress - the constant running around, worrying, obtaining, etc. I am worried for their life.

My problem is, I've got ZERO experience with methodone, and do not have any real advice on how to go about tapering, how/if to approach their maintenance program people (I've never been on a maintenance program either, so no experience there), etc. All I do know, is that the half-life is incredibly long, making withdrawals last a long time. I've heard people here talk about what hell it is.

What can I do to help my friend? Anyone here with experience, I'd be very appreciative of any advice - what a reasonable taper would look like, how and if this should be brought up with their maintenance program, etc.

They don't know where to start and are overwhelmed.

They work a regular job in addition to their sales.

They are very high functioning, as they say. You'd not know this by looking at them, AT ALL. Truly. They are a great person, a kind person, and I want the best for them.

Please, point me in the right direction to advise them. I know that I cannot do the work for them. I'm no co-dependent type. But they truly don't seem to know where to begin, they are running around NON STOP between work and "work", and with my complete lack of experience in the methodone and even maintenance program realm, I have no advice for them other than "taper as best you can".

I, and they obviously, don't want it to come to them writhing on the cold floor of a jail cell with no one giving a fuck. This state is HARSH on opiate/opioid users.

I have no doubt the authorities would just chuckle as they are in the worst agony, unless they were close to death - but we have all heard of cases where it was too late by then. Cases where the shit head authorities allowed someone to fucking DIE, then they cover it up to cover their inhumane asses. It's wrong, but we've all heard those stories.

What can I advise them?

Again, I realize I cannot do anything for them other than advise and hope for the best, and offer my support and encouragement.

As I said, I'm attempting an h kick next weekend. My story is I was born with a painful medical condition, blah blah. Please, no "you can't help them, you are a problem yourself". No shit.

Just looking for where to point them, advice on tapering, as I've no experience with the stuff.

Thanks in advance.

Peace.

Edit: I've made them an account on here at their request, as when they heard me speak so highly of this place, they wanted to join. I will continue to encourage then to post here. I also thought that starting this thread and showing then could potentially be helpful in getting them to actually post here. Maybe, maybe not. But worth trying. Thanks agsin. Peace.

 

[cdin]

well, to start, a slow taper to get things to a manageable level. I'm not a methadone expert, but I might try cutting 5mg a week, maybe 10 - whatever seems bearable after the drop. honestly, at that much they should be able to drop pretty significantly before they feel it too much, but everyone is different. First I would try to get it down to 150, 200 - then reassess from there. at least then their take homes will probably more or less cover the daily dose. Getting to that so they don't have to hustle would be a great goal.

 

[ABetterWay]

cdin,

Thank you so much. With mt limited knowledge on both methodone, other than its long half life, and inexperience with programs, any and all advice is incredibly appreciated.

What you said about they should be able to probably make a significant drop in dose before feeling too awful, thats what I had thought given the long half life as well as the huge amount they are taking, and I told them thats what I *thought* to be true, but couldn't say for sure. And also, exactly as you stated, that literally every BODY is different and what is easy for some may nor be for others, etc.

Thank you for responding, not judging, and simply offering straight forward advice in such an easy to understand way.

May your journey, and whatever you are struggling with no mater what it is, be filled with good fortune, strength, fortitude, and lots of support. Be well

 

[oxlong27]

400 mg is a ridiculous dose. I can't believe the clinic gives them that much. I was on mmt for four years and can tell you that after a certain dose any more is just a waste because your receptors are already flooded. I would bet my bottom dollar that they could cut to 150 mg with little to no discomfort. Any clinic that gives a patient 400 mg a day is either very ignorant or down right dont give a fuck. Its completely reckless. But like I said they should have no issue in cutting their dose in half or more right away.

 

[crzydiamond]

I have years of experience with methadone, although not at such huge amounts. I also had the misfortune of withdrawing in a jail cell back in 2002 ( while legitimately on a clinic in treatment and was given *nothing* to help. It's not fun. Different county than I'm in now. The one I'm in now actually continues to dose you if you were in clinic prior to arrest. But I digress...)

I have also successfully detoxed off the clinic. While at higher amounts, the general rule of thumb is that you can come down 10% of your dose without any issue. I can attest to the fact than at any dose above 20 mg I have easily dropped 10% and not even noticed. When I was at 75, 85, and 95 mg I dropped 10 mg with no symptoms at all.

Years ago I used to occasionally drink an extra take home one day. I never really had an issue a day or two later dropping back to dose, but again it wasn't a daily thing.

If I was your friend I would immediately cut my dose by 10%. I would wait a week to let my body adjust to drop. Then I would continue to do this weekly until (if) he hits a point where wd is noticeable. At that point stop for 2 weeks or until wd goes and he feels " normal" then continue.

If he has the clinic " control" takehomes he is going to drop back too much at this point and would probably supplement with street stuff

It is important to note that drugs like cocaine will make the body metabolize methadone faster ( using up dose sooner ) so if he is using coke or methamphetamine he needs to stop

He also MUST be on board to want to do this. And if he is the type who gets hung up on numbers/what dose am I on, he may need someone to help/ hold takehomes.

And as a side note, when I say withdrawal, I don't mean the slight feeling one wakes up with. I personally wake up in very minor wd when on methadone ( due to pH dropping when sleeping ; methadone is highly pH dependent)regardless of whether I am on 95 mg, 50 mg, or 15 mg. But if he doesn't feel normal 4 hours after dosing then the drops might be too much. And some people feel the drop the first day or so. I never do.

I hope for his sake he can come down. That dose is absurd and if he does get arrested really would put him in danger of dying if cut off cold turkey. Plus honestly, after a certain point of receptor saturation, he's probably passing a lot unchanged through his urine ( and may easily drop big amounts in beginning)

Methadone metabolism is highly individual so he may need to adjust what I've suggested. But 10% per week is an accepted semi-slow detox.

Good luck, and good looking out for your friend. Any thing else I may be able to help with, let me know

 

[ABetterWay]

Oxlong27,

Thanks for your response and advice. Like I said, their take homes are gone fast, and then they resort to other methods to obtain more. The clinic DOES NOT give them that much.

Thank you for the advice on them likely being able to make a huge initial cut in the amount they're taking, that they shouldn't experience too much discomfort for reasons you stated.

Thats what I was thinking, but, because I've only read about methodone/people's experiences and have zero firsthand experience with it myself, I wanted to reach out and ask those who have had/who currently have experience with this.

I will pass this, and all other responses, on to them.

Thank you again, have a great day

Peace.

 

[ABetterWay]

crzydiamond,

I can't thank you enough for such a comprehensive response!!

This is just the kind of response I was dreaming of and hoping for. Your post was filled with knowledge, compassion, great advice and information. The spirit of your post was empathetic and your caring nature is clear.

I also appreciate the straight-forward delivery, no beating around the bush, yet not harsh or judgemental.

I'm so sorry you went through the exact scenario I am fearing for my friend. Being that you were in legitimate mmt that's just unnecessarily cruel, and I'm guessing illegal but hey. Power trips, yo! : rolling my eyes:

I sent them the link for this thread tonight, and am eager for them to read your response in particular. I really think it will be helpful to them.

Again, thank you so vey much for taking the time to respond so thoroughly, with facts, experience, and empathy. Youre a kind soul

Great, great reply and advice, THANK YOU. You rock xo

Be well. Peace.

 

[blueskysahead]

taper off 1 mg every 4 days thats the best way so it wont be painful. but how on earth did this person get on 400mg of methadone. thats enough to tranquilize a megladone shark if it was still in existance. what clinic gave this person that much? m clinic dont care they wont that money thats all they want! but try that. bc methadone is not what your friend needs to be on. i know i was once on it my self,. i used to take the methadone pills itslef,just like a few a day,then ebvery day, i was going through some very very hatd times, amd a person who i thought was a freind back then, this was a long time ago when i was real real young,gave them to me to make me feel better, oh i did alll right. then the doctor of mine long story short for some odd reason, put me in a methadone clinic/hooked me up to go there. i was on it for 7 years,it took over my life, and all that money! wow. but yea, this person needs to start that taper now! even if its 1 mg every 5 days,thats a start, its going to take sum time to fully get off,but thats the safest/painfree way to do it! trust me! methadone in the dictionary should be descritption-poison. lol. but its a very serious thing. and it can kill. tell this person to start that taper now! this person u speak of has ro be going to a methadone clinic to get it everyday that much, or either this person is a millionare and had loads of money, and where would he find someone with that many to sale for that peron to take 400mg every day!??? yea this persons lifes is at risk! i know this person is scared aboput getting off,but tapering off like i said is the best painless way! beleive me! and also pray for this person! good luck! if this person goes to a methadone clinic all they do is go to their counciler and ask to fill lout 1 of the dose change forms where you can request to go up or down, and fill lout you want to go down, 1 or 2 mg every 4-5 days,its up to that person, but you get the point! good luck! god bless! sounds like xanax would be the best meds for this person to be taking not methadone.but at a high dose like that i dont know about taking 1 or 2 xanax to help with the anxiety. but pot is real good for nerves and stress. but a taper is a must now!!! goodluck! i hope my advise was helpful!

 

[ABetterWay]

I realize that my initial post was lengthy, "wordy" (lol), and perhaps longer than necessary, so right here I'll clear up a couple of things that have flown unger the radar for some, just so it's easier to understand the situation:

1.) The clinic is NOT GIVING THEM 400mg/day; they get some take-homes and they blow through them within a day or two;

2.) The individual I'm talking about has gone into the "sales" business if you catch my drift. They have MANY, MANY connects and sources. They make a great deal of cash this way, and this cash goes into obtaining more methodone.

Hope that helps. I apologize for how lengthy mt initial post was. I'm sure thats why these points have been missed by some.

In the meantime, thank you so much to everyone! I love this site and the wonderful, caring people on it :-*

 

[JackARoe]

I have years of experience with methadone, although not at such huge amounts. I also had the misfortune of withdrawing in a jail cell back in 2002 ( while legitimately on a clinic in treatment and was given *nothing* to help. It's not fun. Different county than I'm in now. The one I'm in now actually continues to dose you if you were in clinic prior to arrest. But I digress...)

I'll digress along with you. I had that happen to me too. Except I was going to a private clinic which made it looser than some of the state funded ones. But the owner was a douchebag. I had been on 80 mgs for two years, was dropping 5 mgs a week. Got down to 25, told the owner to go &*^% himself. Except at that point I needed a bundle of dope a day to stay right. So what did my young mind do? Stick ups, got arrested and was in the county 3 weeks before I got bail. They gave me nothing. Oh yeah, they called the clinic because if I hadn't told the owner off I could have gotten dosed. No go. That was a special type of nightmare. I think I slept 40 minutes that whole time in that giant birdcage. Horrible. Got out and was sent straight to a rehab (per my lawyer). I did get 5 years for that. No weapon, faked but still considered a violent crime. (back in 1990) Finished all of that. Actually so long ago it never comes up on a background check.

But I was on methadone three times in my life. The very last 27 years ago. Tapering 5 mgs a week was painless. Until I got down to 15 mgs. Then it needed focus and commitment. Twice I tapered and once well, no so much. But I agree with a poster above, your friend can probably drop 100 mgs immediately and not even notice.

Good luck to your friend. He has a long way to go but most of it painless if done the correct way. Then it took me 7-8 weeks to eat and sleep normally. It can be done.

 

[ABetterWay]

I wanted to give my most sincere thanks to everyone who has responded thus far.

My friend has read this thread and was very pleased with the amount of knowledge gained by everyone sharing their experience and knowledge.

They look forward to coming here more and participating actively.

You guys really helped so much. The bit that stuck with them a lot was the part about their receptors already being saturated and after a certain point it's essentially a waste. I think this knowledge will benefit them enormously by easing a bit of the anxiety and fear that naturally comes along with even just the thought of tapering down, and even quiting altogether.

Thank you, thank you, thank you so much. They felt very positive and happy about their experience here and about the feedback received from you all.

Amazing people here, as always,

May you all be happy, well, peaceful, & liberated.

With much love amd gratitude, have a great day

Peace..

 

[crzydiamond]

Glad to be able to help.

I'm currently doing a slow taper. Maxed at 95 mg this time in the clinic. That was over a year ago at least. I'm not even sure when exactly as I don't pay much attention to the numbers. Now I drop every month or every few weeks. At 31 mg now. I can honestly say I have no had one symptom from tapering. I'm not as sleepy in morning but that's about the only difference.

From previous experience, I don't expect symptoms until I'm under 20 mg...and hopefully even less. Last taper years ago I had to stop at 20 and then at 4 to stabilize

I offer my experience as a contrast to the horror stories. When tapered slowly, methadone can be gotten off with minimal if any symptoms. It's night and day to cold turkey. It's all about letting body adjust and not going fast. No more than 10 % drops ( those are really not noticed. Unless of course you know what day it changes and focus on it. I had to go look at a bottle to see what I'm on lol, didn't know if that last decrease was in)

Hope your friend gives it a try, and welcome to him/her