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  • AADD Moderators: swilow | Vagabond696

Forensic Science Update: Gamma-Hydroxybutyrate (GHB)

ghostcorps said:

Tell me.. what do you think is worse.. a GHB OD or an MDMA OD?
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But a GHB/1,4B overdose is far easier then a MDMA overdose, and here in lies the problem. Both over doses can leave you dead, or with permanent brain damage, but the GHB/1,4B overdose can be done accidentally even.

Then not to mention, once people have overdosed they are unable to call for help. If a person feels like they are going under then there is no way they can get help. Since they will be unresposive, even when consious, they have no way of being able to call for an abulance, or seek help from someone in the other room. This then puts the onus onto friends and people around the person to make sure this person is alright. But how many of us can honestly say they would know when to call an ambulance? More to the point, if this drug is going to be most commonly consumed at recoveries, then who's to say paranoia isn't going to kick in and prevent people from calling for professional help? Who is to say that people who are consious will be capable if they have consumed large amounts of psychedelics or other mind altering substances? There are just too many ways to go wrong with this drug, and only 1 right way.

The problem isn't the toxicity of GHB/1,4B. The problem lies within the user being able to responsibly self administer the drug. You might be able to drive across town in a few minutes in a car, but would you let someone who is unlicensed behind the wheel? Used responsibly GHB/1,4B is a safe drug, but the problem is the people who are untrained, and reckless. People won't believe how quickly you can get into trouble with it till they expirience it for themselves. And often that can be too late.
 
I think Johnboy has summed it all up nicely.
Well done JB.
:)
 
johnboy said:
I'm not really sure what you are trying to argue here.
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I am arguing that the misinformation that is presented in the media and supported by many people here is quite simply doing more harm than good. as the sydney story shows, people dont have the full story.. and die when they should have known the facts. I am arguing against the hypocricy of people who praise MDMA and demonise GHB. .. I agree that passing out on G looks bad.. but the science/math (therapeutic/mortality indicies) show that the risk of death is equal to that of MDMA and that GHB has a negligible neurotixicity compared to MDMA.

johnboy said:
For the average user of illicit drugs, using GHB is riskier than using MDMA
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Riskier.. but not likly to result on death nor brain damage. Being realistic means not exagerrating the risks in the name of aesthetics.

Clinical studies are far more useful than anecdotal stories. provided you can actually understand them. And if you can, It is your duty to relate the information to those who need the digested version... not to twist it to reflect your intentions.

also it would be wise to note that scientific data and clinical studies are two differant things.



MDMA ODs are incredibly rare. GHB OD's are not

But the danger of an MDMA OD if far more pronounced. Including risk of braindamage through respiratory arrest. Anaethesia through GHB in fact increases the respiration of O2 through the body. thus effectivly reducing the risk of Braindamage (this in information that can only be gleaned from clinical studies.. as anecdotal stories tend to reflect the external symptoms not the internal facts).

That pill can contain at most, if there is minimal binders and nothing else present and the pills is freakishly huge, 250mg of MDMA. By taking one or two pills you are still well within the safety margins.

and by taking 10 doses of GHB you are still safe.. not concious.. but alot safer than 10 pills.


. Once you have bought your GHB illegally you have no idea of the dosage. From 2ml to 40ml could be "one dose". You have nothing to rely on but the word of your dealer. No limits of the pills size to save you, no test that can be done to even determine if it is GHB without tasting it. And, as we keep finding out, a single mouthful can kill.

who is to say the pill isnt PMA? At least with G we know 1g of GHB/1,4-b is the saturation point of 1ml of water.. so we know a safe testing dose is 1ml. anyoine testing a mouthfull of GHB deserves to have their stomach pumped.



This is not to say No to G. It is to simply stress the Know. Risky behaviour is what makes life fun, dammit. We just have to be realistic about the risk.

I could have sworn that was what i was saying... but being safe means not going beyond reason.. and becoming a scaremonger..

Blaming ignorant users is sadly as abhorrent a rhetoric as saying guns don't kill people, people kill people.

ignorant users.. ignorant dealers.. ignorant friends.. ignorance much liek stupidity is a human condition.. no one can change that.. but at least we can ensure the truth is out there.


Sllip said:

But a GHB/1,4B overdose is far easier then a MDMA overdose, and here in lies the problem. Both over doses can leave you dead, or with permanent brain damage, but the GHB/1,4B overdose can be done accidentally even.
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have you not read any of the data I have provided? GHB does not carry a risk of braindamage! the chances of accidentally killing yourself with GHB only is mathematically equal to that of MDMA.. approximatly 82 standard doses when determined in rats.. obvioulsy muchless on humans.. but still equal. If you are at a comercial party.. it is not your dtuty to call an ambulance.. your dtuty if you see an apparent OD it to report it to the on-site medic.. who then must make an educated descision.. that is what they are trained for.

the problem isnt the drug.. its the available information... if everyone knew and understood that 1ml is a safe testing dose for GHB then accidental OD's would be non-existant.. but if the media and our peers insist on claiming GHb is impossible to dose.. thejn people wont nbpother to look any furthr.. they will take their chances with the little information lies) that have seen.

If you are going to ban a drug because it can be harmfull you might as well join the prohibitionists.
 
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Your argument is nothing new its something that informed bluelighters like ourselves are allready aware of. We know how ignorant, minsinformed, stupid the media can be.
 
LD50 Vs SSRI: It wold be nice if you were right.. but there are far to many people who pass themselves off as educated.. that use anecdotal evidence as fact.
 
True, i just cant for the life of me understand why people use substances such as ghb,14b,gbl and dont care for harm minimisation with such a small margin of error to be made.
 
Its cos they think they are heros.. they see people saying dont do it.. so they have to push th envelope.. whay else would people drop 5 or 6 pills in a nihjt?
 
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Yeah, becuase there my hero's i just think to myself WOW i aspire to be just like you and consume as much as you are for the so called right reasons :p ;)
 
and by taking 10 doses of GHB you are still safe
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If your definition of safe is being in a coma with a GCS score of >6 then I'm sorry, there's no point discussing this further.
 
Johnboy: if you think promoting the idea that 10G's of GHB will cause COMA and brain damage a submission of factual information is then I must return the sentiment. PLease provide your data set and I will provide mine :)
 
I don't have data sets I have the pictures I have seen of people that have ended up in the Royal Adelaide Hospital and it is something I am not soon going to forget.

And remember it was you who said "10 doses". At no stage was 10 grams mentioned. That is the key to this; no one knows what a dose is.

Real world examples, that is what I keep using, not figures I have pulled out of a research paper. And again I stress that i am in no way demonising GHB, we just have to be realistic about its risks. Risks which, for the average user, are higher than most other recreational drugs.
 
from erowid

Study findings showed:


The average age of the study population was 28 years, and 61 patients (69 percent) were male. None of the patients died, but at least five deaths resulting from GHB overdose have been reported elsewhere. More than half the patients had GCS scores of 8 or below: 25 (28 percent) had a score of 3 and 28 (33 percent) had scores ranging from 4 to 8. (The average GCS score for an alcohol-induced coma is in the 7-8 range, according to Sporer.)

Thirty-four patients (39 percent) also had consumed alcohol, and 25 (28 percent) had ingested other drugs, most often amphetamines. All patients in both of these groups exhibited extremely low blood pressure. There was no conclusive evidence on the effects of substance abuse interactions related to other symptoms. Patients typically regained consciousness within 5 hours of ingestion of GHB.

The initial GCS score was linked to recovery time, with low scores requiring the longest period. Long-term effects of GHB are unknown.
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Hardly the damming evidence you propose it is... notice the corrolation between severe GCS and Multi drug OD.
 
Wait a sec. Did you just start arguing with yourself? Oh I see you've deleted it now. How odd...
 
pressed the wrong button... but yes i do argue with myself often.

I would expect to survive without brain damage after a GCS of 4 .. provided all i has ingested was GHB.. yes.. I wouldnt do it... but thats not the question is it?
 
Well it is, because you defined that as "safe".

I guess that is where we must disagree. I work in harm reduction and although I myself indulge in much risky behaviour, including using GHB, I am never ever going to consider getting myself that low down on the GCS scale to be in any way "safe".
 
So let me get this straight, your still trying to convince us that GHB/1,4B isn't going to kill you?

Lucky for you I'm not a niave young raver who happened to skim read your posts otherwise I would go out and double dose thinking that it's not going to harm me.

As far as I'm concerned you can scream bloody murder all you want about how 'safe' GHB/1,4B is, but the reality of it is that people are dying after dosing too much. In my eyes that doesn't make it safe.
 
please show me exactly what risks are posed by GHB when in such an inactive state. Dont treat me liek a laymean.. I want clinical terms and lots of them.

dont forget.. the GCS is determined by visual methods only. and the chances of survival are determined by the cause of said GCS not the GCS alone. ie: trauma victims of GCS 3 do not have a high chance of survival.. but patiens under general anaesthetic must show at least a GCS of 3 before they are operable.
 
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And eyeball evidence is to be discounted is it? So I am to disregard the presentations and informal discussions I have had with 5 of Australasia's leading specialists in this field, ie the Emergency room registrars who treat these ODs nearly every single day? Right-o then. I'll stick to quoting years old stuff from erowid then, if that is the ground rules :)
 
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