Fooling the EZ-Test!

[johnboy]

originally posted by Chemical Generation in the closed thread http://www.bluelight.ru/ubb/Forum10/HTML/000952.html?reload=37 reposted here with permission.

Glad to see that everyone is reading/responding, and most importantly THINKING and QUESTIONNING.
With regards to Ketamine, no tests developed yet. I will be working on that soon. Some others we are working on should also help everyone get better informed about their party supplies!
E2 is not selling as an independant entity yet. We are currently developing a marketing strategy, which will probably involve several steps. Firstly handing a few out to test the market and gather feedback. Volunteers welcome to contact us, but please be aware that we're looking for people with a particular pill/compound available, that we may be able to help identify using E2. It's not a 'who wants one' grab at this stage!
Marquis reagent and E2 are definitely the best things to happen to the scene in a long time. And a bargain at AUD20 (+GST). We will always need to work hard to keep one step ahead of those that would otherwise try to rip us off or make us sick, whilst profiting hugely. It then becomes necessary for YOU to let people like ME know what THEY are doing, so that we can find a way to counteract it.
As for Saffrole and other precursors (starting materials) such as piperonal, used for MDMA synthesis, it should be no surprise that they give similar reactions with Marquis reagent, as they ARE very similar to MDMA! Again, the reagent is not selective, and if it's structurally similar it will give a similar result. On the other hand, because it is NOT selective, things that are NOT structurally similar can also give similar results. Hence the need to develop more discriminating tests.
I regret that I can't inform you all of the scientific literature references that I use for Marquis and other testers. This is primarily due to me wanting to avoid any unscrupulous manufacturers from learing what other chemicals thay could use to get the blue/purple/black response. Sory folks, as a scientist I know that you have to base your reputation on facts and literature, without which you are just making unfounded/unsubstantiated claims.
Unfortunately, with the scene and the audience the way it is, I feel that it would be detrimental to us all. Your understanding in this matter would be greatly appreciated!
To give you some insight into the chemistry behind my call on the PMA colour:
The issue of PMA not responding positively to Marquis is interesting (well, I thought so!). Remember above that I spoke of the Marquis reagents response moving to the red end of the visible spectrum as the ratio of Carbon/Hydrogen to Oxygen rises. Remember also that Speed is at the red end of the spectrum, which is also what I will call the 'weak' end of the spectrum. ie: Not much around to cause a colour reaction. Note that PMA is fairly similar in structure to Speed, so it is also, at best, going to be at the weak end of the spectrum. Now consider that there's no methyl group on the nitrogen for PMA (METhamphetmamine is Speed, para-methoxyamphetamine is PMA), and that the methoxy group is on the opposite site of the aromatic ring, and relatively easily cleaved off with concentrated sulphuric acid. From all of this chemistry I summise it's not likely to give a strong reaction to Marquis, if at all. My references say it doesn't react except to give effecvescence, which is interesting in itself. Effervescence in a pill can be due to the sulphuric acid reacting with calcium carbonate to give carbon dioxide gas. People also press pills with magnesium oxide, which doesn't do that gas prodcution thing, so it's hard to draw a conclusion about that side of it.
Anyhow, rambled enough. Onwards and upwards.
B.
Chemical Generation

 

[Chemical Generation]

Hey just a quick note. It would seem that our new E2 tester will give a brown reaction to Ketamine. This has been trialled on two individual authenticated samples by independant sources, so we feel that we can now be helping with positive identification of Special K.
Yay us!
B.
Chemical Generation

 

[johnboy]

sois this reaction very different to a speed reaction?
how soon till we see videos of these reactions?

 

[aj]

Chemical Generation wrote :
"It would seem that our new E2 tester will give a brown reaction to Ketamine"
Well, now I am curious ??
Want to share some details ?
aj

 

[Chemical Generation]

Speed goes orange/brown with Marquis reagent. With E2, speed goes a completely different colour, and it is sensitive to the strength of the speed.
Ketamine does not make any significant colour changes with Marquis reagent. Ketamine does go brown (NOT ORANGE) with E2, and given it is a DIFFERENT test on a another sample, there will not be a problem in getting them confused.
We are looking for world-wide distributors for E2, so perhaps we can take this off-line to discuss further.
B.
Chemical Generation

 

[Thaproger]

You said before that they will start to put all kinds of stuff in the pills? they won't. X costs about 25 cents or less to make one of those pills and they are earning 20+ dollars each!

 

[Good4you]

Could use some help on this. Tested a guy?s MDMA with first Marquis....really no color change. Then tested it with Mandelin and it went a tiny bit greenish, then deep purple (which on the color chart would be MDMA). He had real K, so should this still indicate real MDMA by the 2 tests??? ANY help appreciated!

 

[earpain]

I have some Organic Chem background. Almost no knowledge of Physical Chemistry(science of why some liquids are a certain color for example).
I recently acquired the following reagents: Marquis, Mecke, Mendelin, and Liebermanne. I of course took note that all 4 are almost pure H2SO4(sulfuric acid). I assumed this is a standardization technique first and foremost.
Fact: Just about all the drugs we take are 'salts'. A 'salt' is an an acid + a base. Usually the base(alkalloid, freebase) is the complex molecule that gets us high. The manufacturer chooses any acid they please to neutralize the freebase, and create a salt. (Aderrall , Pfizer showing off? It's a mix of 4 different salts of amphetamine)

So, H2SO4 will form the sulfate salt of any drug. Sometimes this is the best form to transport/ingest it in. Sometimes not. BUT, for reagent purposes, we KNOW that the sulfate ion will kick any weaker ion out of the way, (HCl, phosphate, acetate, citrate, nitrate, hydrobromide, hydroiodide, etc. etc.). Establishing an H2SO4 standard for all reagents allows for a control.

However, more commonly in lab settings, the precise opposite approach is taken, and instead the drug is 'liberated' with ANY base.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but fizzling indicates that the substance came as any salt besides sulfate

Also, any reaction occurring in the first 30 seconds presumably is an acid/base reaction. These reactions are one way, and instantaneous. Colors that take a few minutes to slowly show up, I suppose it's safe to assume are ReDox reactions(the other sort of chemical reaction). Those are reversible, and occur over time as equilibrium slowly shifts towards one side of the <-> ( like rust!)


In my experience, which involved video taping at close range the reactions, there isn't much to learn from the timing of the color changes etc., ESPECIALLY with darker colors like purple. Mixing dark paints with dark paints just makes mud.

The mechanism is not something I wish to disclose to shonky manufacturers, but basically it's sensitive to elements like oxygen (and others which I chose not to discolse), particularly aromatic/cyclic oxygen. The sulphuric acid degrades the substance down to its basic building blocks, which then react with one of the other components. Various colours representing the whole visible spectrum are given by a large number of compounds. Structures that tend to maintain the response to the reagent at the violet end of the spectrum contain more oxygen. As the ratio of carbon, hydrogen and nitrogen to other groups in the molecule rises, the response moves to longer wavelengths (ie to green, orange and then red).
If you have a mixture of compounds in the pill, the reagent will just react with them all, at once, and the colour change will be based on the total ratio of oxygen to carbon/hydrogen/nitrogen present. There is some scope for some things digesting/reacting faster, and for proximity, but you have to watch very carefully to see that happening. Nothing too selective, nothing fancy, just a total ratio thing. Yes indeed, you will find shonky manufacturers trying to fool Marquis based testers. I can do it with ease, so I'm assuming they can as well.

I'm sorry but I can't fathom any justification for withholding information beyond for reasons of profit. Any chemist knows that without chromatography for starters, and a second doubly verifying test like Nuclear Magnetic Resonance is roughly on par with tasting a piece of the powder and taking a guess.