Opioids Fentanyl fucked with receptors? Bad bupe reaction

[Thatgirl299]

Please read-- reply if you have sensitivity to naloxone in the suboxone or have gone through something similar !! Bernese method thoughts. Thank you

So I'm just curious. 10 year opiate addict here. 8-9 on opanas/roxie 1year3months on fentanyl-straight white salty fentanyl where .1 put my 180mg a day self on my ass (used to)
I then found out was Precipitated withdrawal was .... so I did the whole 48+ hours before sub..still felt like hell. Gave it a day or two then would relapse due to work/family.
Got a good sub doctor now. I dabbled with bernese method and was able to get up to 6mg but had to do 0.1-0.2 on top. I decided again to wait 48 hours then induct per doctors request. Still shitty. Still did dope on top but I did get up to 12mg a day and thought - hey I should stop doing fent I'm wasting my money- lots of it. Was up to 0.5 -0.7 a day on top.
Here's what happened. Last Friday I did .7 on top of my 12mg sub. Didnt feel shit- which was good because I decided to stop. Woke up Saturday took 12mg sub plus my antibiotic and diflucan 150mg. Went into withdrawal. Not as severe as precipitated but shitty flashbacks, wanting to pull a trigger, sweaty chills so prominent that it hurt. Thought it was because of fucking up with fent. 10 hours later started feeling better. Took only 2mg sub that night woke up 90 minutes later in withdrawal all over again. Didnt make sense to me because it was only 2mg of sub and I already take 12mg sub daily for 2 weeks regardless of dope/fent on top. The next day I took 12mg and it happened all over again.
Called doc yesterday about the diflucan possibly messing with the liver enzyme processing. Nope, not it. So I took my sub. Got sick still (3 days sober at this point) or diflucan slowed the metabolism of the fentanyl? To a screeching halt. Because keep in mind - regardless- I have 12mg a day in my system. Never missing it.
I'm not sure that I've ever been stable on subs. Never got the happy cloud, energy etc. Just depression and chills. Wondering if it is the naloxone - yes I know the bioavailability is minimal if none - has anyone experienced something similar?
Appointment tomorrow...should I just be honest and say hey I'm not stable, still doing bits of dope on top of my sub 1-2 hour after taking sub due to shakes chills ? Should i try subutex ? I cant do methadone-- nearest clinic is over an hour away in horrible traffic. Why the fuck cant America get it together and allow methadone in private practice setting.

 

[Chris42393]

Im sorry to hear about your reaction. Its no fun im sure. Im am an opiate addict (been clean for almost 2 months from IV heroin) myself. I have no experience with suboxone or methadone.

Im just going to give you some personal opinions/experiences, this by any means doesn't mean I'm right.

1. Though methadone works for a lot of people, but id stay FAR FAR away from it. The withdrawals can be HORRIBLE and they will stay around for a LONGGG time (can be there for at least a month). Making it even worse than heroin.

2. If you are trying to get off opiates, Id try giving Kratom a try. This stuff got me off IV heroin. That right there should tell you how amazing it is (at least in my opinion). It literally saved my life. It took away all my withdrawals, stopped cravings and am no longer shooting up H because of it.

3. If you're trying to eventually get off everything, Gabapentin can take away all withdrawal symptoms as well (it did for me at least). I took 100mg's a few times throughout the day and I literally had ZERO withdrawals. It was a miracle. Some people might need to take higher doses to reach what I had, but it still works AMAZING. I have no idea how it worked so well, but it took them all away.

Once again, this is just my experience/opinion.

Good luck

Chris

 

[Pixies]

All I can man is 'Subutex'. That's gonna be your best bet. I'm doing Methadone myself, but if I wasn't doing that, it would be the Subutex, NEVER NEVER EVER EVER in my life will I put that shitty orange suboxone strip in my face, ever ever again. I went through a VERY similar situation as to what you are going through, and honestly man, the thing Drs don't want to tell people, is that fucking Naloxone is GARBAGE! Not only does it basically have a different reaction with every different Opiate under the sun, it also varies from person to person as well. Fuck. That. Nonsense. Tell your Dr. you don't ever want to put Naloxone in your body again, because you believe you are having a bad reaction to it. If he doesn't play ball, then find a new Dr, or make that drive for the Methadone, talk to a counselor about getting a "work hardship with the state", where they can give you a weeks worth of take homes at once. I got this approved because I work 3 hours away from where I live, and spend up to a week at a time, not in my residential address. Good luck man.

 

[Lucy20]

I was on methadone and got off using the Burmese method and it was almost painless.
I was at 30mg of methadone and started at .5 suboxone. Within a week i was off methadone and starting the sub taper.
You have to be EXACT with the timing every day for it to work. I would take the sub first then methadone an hour later.
I never did go into bad withdrawals.
I could help you with a taper plan if you want to pm me, my way worked for me so it may help you.
Withdrawal is pure hell but it gets better

 

[Thatgirl299]

Thank you guys so so much! Suboxone and methadone withdrawals both suck for a month. However. I want to stick with a doctor while I gradually taper when I'm ready. I dont care if it takes years. Not my worry. My worry is that I hate doing dope/fent. But I cant get stable on subs. I told my husband the truth what's been going on. He was the one who pointed out I was never stable and never felt good never stayed on it long. So I'm thinking my best bet is to ask my doc if I can get on subutex ...just to see. I'm not an IV user so its not like I'd be tempted to shoot it. Maybe if I get stable on subutex. Then i could try suboxone if she absolutely insists. I'm just tired of using. So proud I made it 3 days....again...once again....even though I was sick as a dog...again.
I also did bernese method three times in a year. Slow steady started low always waited hour to do my dope. Always decreasing usage. I think it's nearly impossible with fentanyl. Idk.
Now kratom I do have, not much, but a friend gave me her batch when I went into precipitated wd about year ago after waiting 36 hours. It did help a bit. But I got a call from my dealer.
I have every comfort med. I have psilocybin.
But I'm tired of having to rely on all of that to feel like I can live....when I should be okay taking suboxone. Once I get stable then start tapering I'll definitely definitely use kratom to help me.
But for now, I need sub and therapy and all that jazz. Just wish i could find a solution because even waiting days doesnt help.
Put it to you like this.
I checked myself into a condo on a quite island for 13 days to detox alone in February.
By day 5 after RLS kicked my ass and I was collapsing I caved and took 1.5 mg of suboxone. I was so hard on myself too.
Guess what. It did not help. At all.
I ended up eating .4-.5 of shrooms and that helped tremendously, I didnt notice the shits shakes and chills. But..I cant live like that, taking crap all the time.

Thanks for the work week take home advice for methadone should the issue arise. I own my company but I could place the service area as the boondocks.

I'm almost to the doctor now. Last chance...should I be honest that I keep having to do/doing fent on top of subs not getting stable - ever. I just started treatment about 2 weeks ago ?

 

[Chris42393]

Thank you guys so so much! Suboxone and methadone withdrawals both suck for a month. However. I want to stick with a doctor while I gradually taper when I'm ready. I dont care if it takes years. Not my worry. My worry is that I hate doing dope/fent. But I cant get stable on subs. I told my husband the truth what's been going on. He was the one who pointed out I was never stable and never felt good never stayed on it long. So I'm thinking my best bet is to ask my doc if I can get on subutex ...just to see. I'm not an IV user so its not like I'd be tempted to shoot it. Maybe if I get stable on subutex. Then i could try suboxone if she absolutely insists. I'm just tired of using. So proud I made it 3 days....again...once again....even though I was sick as a dog...again.
I also did bernese method three times in a year. Slow steady started low always waited hour to do my dope. Always decreasing usage. I think it's nearly impossible with fentanyl. Idk.
Now kratom I do have, not much, but a friend gave me her batch when I went into precipitated wd about year ago after waiting 36 hours. It did help a bit. But I got a call from my dealer.
I have every comfort med. I have psilocybin.
But I'm tired of having to rely on all of that to feel like I can live....when I should be okay taking suboxone. Once I get stable then start tapering I'll definitely definitely use kratom to help me.
But for now, I need sub and therapy and all that jazz. Just wish i could find a solution because even waiting days doesnt help.
Put it to you like this.
I checked myself into a condo on a quite island for 13 days to detox alone in February.
By day 5 after RLS kicked my ass and I was collapsing I caved and took 1.5 mg of suboxone. I was so hard on myself too.
Guess what. It did not help. At all.
I ended up eating .4-.5 of shrooms and that helped tremendously, I didnt notice the shits shakes and chills. But..I cant live like that, taking crap all the time.

Thanks for the work week take home advice for methadone should the issue arise. I own my company but I could place the service area as the boondocks.

I'm almost to the doctor now. Last chance...should I be honest that I keep having to do/doing fent on top of subs not getting stable - ever. I just started treatment about 2 weeks ago ?

Talk to your doctor about Requip for RLS. When I was WD'ing I asked for a prescription (1mg) and it took the RLS completely away (its a medicine for RLS). Gabapentin is also good for RLS (and opiate withdrawals), it would be a win/win if you got that too.

 

[Lucy20]

Thank you guys so so much! Suboxone and methadone withdrawals both suck for a month. However. I want to stick with a doctor while I gradually taper when I'm ready. I dont care if it takes years. Not my worry. My worry is that I hate doing dope/fent. But I cant get stable on subs. I told my husband the truth what's been going on. He was the one who pointed out I was never stable and never felt good never stayed on it long. So I'm thinking my best bet is to ask my doc if I can get on subutex ...just to see. I'm not an IV user so its not like I'd be tempted to shoot it. Maybe if I get stable on subutex. Then i could try suboxone if she absolutely insists. I'm just tired of using. So proud I made it 3 days....again...once again....even though I was sick as a dog...again.
I also did bernese method three times in a year. Slow steady started low always waited hour to do my dope. Always decreasing usage. I think it's nearly impossible with fentanyl. Idk.
Now kratom I do have, not much, but a friend gave me her batch when I went into precipitated wd about year ago after waiting 36 hours. It did help a bit. But I got a call from my dealer.
I have every comfort med. I have psilocybin.
But I'm tired of having to rely on all of that to feel like I can live....when I should be okay taking suboxone. Once I get stable then start tapering I'll definitely definitely use kratom to help me.
But for now, I need sub and therapy and all that jazz. Just wish i could find a solution because even waiting days doesnt help.
Put it to you like this.
I checked myself into a condo on a quite island for 13 days to detox alone in February.
By day 5 after RLS kicked my ass and I was collapsing I caved and took 1.5 mg of suboxone. I was so hard on myself too.
Guess what. It did not help. At all.
I ended up eating .4-.5 of shrooms and that helped tremendously, I didnt notice the shits shakes and chills. But..I cant live like that, taking crap all the time.

Thanks for the work week take home advice for methadone should the issue arise. I own my company but I could place the service area as the boondocks.

I'm almost to the doctor now. Last chance...should I be honest that I keep having to do/doing fent on top of subs not getting stable - ever. I just started treatment about 2 weeks ago ?

I sent you a pm

 

[svacheme3]

Just in principle, yes it is sometimes possible for high tolerance to one opioid to cause weird effects with another.

Like when I was at the height of my oxy habit, Opana came out and I was so excited to get some. Before Opana oxymorphone was rare and the only time I had had it before was when I synthesized some myself-- but man was that awesome. But that was when my tolerance was a fraction of what it was later.
So when Opana came out, and I got a script, I saved it for when I ran out of oxycodone. I waited until I was getting sick for the maximum rush effect. That was a great rush; I shot 40mg. But then 5 minutes later, the withdrawal came right back. So I did more. And more. And more. Always got a great rush, but sick again in minutes, even after approaching 200mg IV'd.

But in your case, it sounds much simpler like your body wasn't clearing the fent as fast as it should, or a dosage issue. Like when my habit was at its peak like that, I had nothing but precipitated w/d from bupe, every time, and I waited +24h, +36h, and +48h, precipitated w/d every time. Not going to be the naloxone though, its much lower binding affinity than bupe makes it irrelevant, even IV.

 

[Pixies]

Just in principle, yes it is sometimes possible for high tolerance to one opioid to cause weird effects with another.

Like when I was at the height of my oxy habit, Opana came out and I was so excited to get some. Before Opana oxymorphone was rare and the only time I had had it before was when I synthesized some myself-- but man was that awesome. But that was when my tolerance was a fraction of what it was later.
So when Opana came out, and I got a script, I saved it for when I ran out of oxycodone. I waited until I was getting sick for the maximum rush effect. That was a great rush; I shot 40mg. But then 5 minutes later, the withdrawal came right back. So I did more. And more. And more. Always got a great rush, but sick again in minutes, even after approaching 200mg IV'd.

But in your case, it sounds much simpler like your body wasn't clearing the fent as fast as it should, or a dosage issue. Like when my habit was at its peak like that, I had nothing but precipitated w/d from bupe, every time, and I waited +24h, +36h, and +48h, precipitated w/d every time. Not going to be the naloxone though, its much lower binding affinity than bupe makes it irrelevant, even IV.

Honestly, if I ever even THOUGHT* precipitated withdrawals was going to happen. I would wait 72+ hours MINIMUM! Never again will I go through that hell... That is honestly worse than any other "real" withdrawal symptom. That's why I will never touch Naloxone again, ever! No matter what shit I'm going through. Unless, I've been a week or more without ANYTHING at all, only then would I ever even CONSIDER it. This is the real shit these doctors won't tell people about the variance between person to person with Naloxone.

 

[Ready2LiveAgain]

So when using the bernese method, is the idea to still be on a low dose of heroin/methadone/fentanyl while starting to take very small doses of suboxone (.02 mg)? While at the same time while slowly increasing the suboxone while simultaneously lowering the use of the heroin/methadone/fentanyl?

 

[Aimee73]

So when using the bernese method, is the idea to still be on a low dose of heroin/methadone/fentanyl while starting to take very small doses of suboxone (.02 mg)? While at the same time while slowly increasing the suboxone while simultaneously lowering the use of the heroin/methadone/fentanyl?

That's exactly the IDEA. I've seen it work, friends have done it, however (just a friendly heads up) if you are thinking of doing it DONT if you are on methadone. I tried, I literally cut a strip up into 32 tiny squares, I had been kicked out of my clinic for fighting, put on a 10 day detox (which sucked cuz I was on 100mgs.) So I was brought down 10mgs a day, I didn't start feeling shitty until @40mgs. After that I was withdrawaling, I had my mind set that I wouldn't touch the Subs until I was dosed out. But we all know what happens, I couldn't take it anymore so I got online to find ANYTHING saying there was some way I could take some at my 10mg dose. And I found the Bernese method, used that as my "go ahead" I took one thirty second of a strip and within minutes I was in the worst withdrawal I have ever experienced in my over 20+ yr love affair with opiates/oids, I wanted to die, I went to the hospital where they told me that because I had been on methadone for 16yrs it was built up in my body that's why the Bernese method is shady at best with methadone (and I'd be careful if your DOC is Morphine or coedine they stay with you too) ?

 

[Aimee73]

Honestly, if I ever even THOUGHT* precipitated withdrawals was going to happen. I would wait 72+ hours MINIMUM! Never again will I go through that hell... That is honestly worse than any other "real" withdrawal symptom. That's why I will never touch Naloxone again, ever! No matter what shit I'm going through. Unless, I've been a week or more without ANYTHING at all, only then would I ever even CONSIDER it. This is the real shit these doctors won't tell people about the variance between person to person with Naloxone.

I agree about waiting 72hrs, even up to a week is what the sub clinic recommends for some. I went through precipitated withdrawal once. I don't think I know anyone who has gone through it twice. It's horrible!!!!

 

[Ready2LiveAgain]

Luckily I am not on methadone & have never attempted it due to all of the horror stories of getting trapped on it.

It is a heroin/fent mix (which is likely almost entirely fent), but who the hell knows these days.

I took a .25 small sliver of suboxone yesterday after about 20 hours since my last use, and then waited about 30 mins (felt fine), just lethargic, runny, nose...mild symptoms. I then took a very small bump of the H/fent mix (of which I have about a gram of leftover), and felt fine.

I think took a benzo and gabapentin and slept decently well last night.

It’s been about 12 hours, so I am going to now take another .25 small sliver of suboxone and see how I feel.

 

[Aimee73]

Luckily I am not on methadone & have never attempted it due to all of the horror stories of getting trapped on it.

It is a heroin/fent mix (which is likely almost entirely fent), but who the hell knows these days.

I took a .25 small sliver of suboxone yesterday after about 20 hours since my last use, and then waited about 30 mins (felt fine), just lethargic, runny, nose...mild symptoms. I then took a very small bump of the H/fent mix (of which I have about a gram of leftover), and felt fine.

I think took a benzo and gabapentin and slept decently well last night.

It’s been about 12 hours, so I am going to now take another .25 small sliver of suboxone and see how I feel.

I hope it works for you, just don't get overconfident and take more than the miniscule amount of sub. just because you took it once and didn't go into precipitated withdrawal. Neurontin is also a great med to make you comfy. Do you smoke weed? It's also incredibly helpful in withdrawal. Good luck!!! ?

 

[Ready2LiveAgain]

Thanks for the reply Aimee!

I certainly do plan to take it slow, and would like to have at least gradually built up to around 4-8mg of suboxone before I remove the antagonist completely.

The day that I finally only take suboxone without any antagonist (after several several days of build-up), I also plan to wait as long as possible (12-24hrs), before taking that dose of suboxone, to be as careful as possible to avoid PWD’s.

I’m thinking in total a ~10-14 day gradual build up.

Wish me luck!

 

[Aimee73]

Thanks for the reply Aimee!

I certainly do plan to take it slow, and would like to have at least gradually built up to around 4-8mg of suboxone before I remove the antagonist completely.

The day that I finally only take suboxone without any antagonist (after several several days of build-up), I also plan to wait as long as possible (12-24hrs), before taking that dose of suboxone, to be as careful as possible to avoid PWD’s.

I’m thinking in total a ~10-14 day gradual build up.

Wish me luck!

?Sounds like you have a really well thought out plan, I think if you stick to the plan you'll have no problems! I look forward to reading your success story?