• Psychedelic Drugs Welcome Guest
    View threads about
    Posting RulesBluelight Rules
    PD's Best Threads Index
    Social ThreadSupport Bluelight
    Psychedelic Beginner's FAQ

Encouraging 4-Aco-DMT degradation safely

T

thizzkid

Bluelighter
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Messages
121
Well, the title mostly says it but Ill explain...

As some of you are probably aware or have even experienced, sometimes 4-aco batchs can change color in consistency over time, however maintaining potency which is a curious phenomena and probably has to do with it degrading into psilocin unless I am mistaken. It can even go from an all white/slightly grayish powder all the way to a clumpy brown-sugar-consistency with a dark brown color. Now assume that this is its transition into psilocin (even though that may not be the case); normally degradation of a drug would be a bad thing but upon trying out my batch after its color had changed I found the effects were definitely more pronounced and that it was also roughly 10-15% more potent. In addition the visuals themselves were more rainbow than 4-aco usually accomplishes. Interestingly too, upon relieving a new batch, it came in already brown and clumpy and the differences between that and normal 4-aco powder were consistent with the presumably degraded batch...

Now both these batches are gone and it was sad to see them go because my new batch that came in is the normal powder which is still great to use but not quite on the level of the brown stuff, however it has also begun to slowly turn brownish and clump together but is doing it very slowly. What I am curious of is if whatever reaction going on can actually be encouraged and sped up without destroying anything in the bag. Im sure in time itll become what I want, but whos to say it wont get eaten by then =p

Anyway just let me know what you guys think or if you have had similar experiences and actually like the brown more.

Also, a side note; shouldnt this also occur on any 4-aco-tryp? take 4-aco-met for example; theres not much if any steric protection around the 4 position on the indole and if the presumed degredation really is conversion to a hydroxy group, then why wouldnt it happen on anything else with the 4-sub?
 
I'm pretty sure oxidization is what degrades 4-AcO-DMT back to 4-HO-DMT.
I could be wrong though.
 
I thought this too; however taking a look at the structures of each, if anything bonds to oxygen are lost so I dont think oxidation is the right mechanism and in fact it would be a reduction if anything (ester --> alcohol group).
How exactly this happens though without any obvious reagent is confusing to me...
 
Right nexus but how is this enabled in a normal condition like my room? If im not mistaken, hydrolysis of an ester would have to take place in acidic, aqueous environments wouldn't it? Im not disagreeing with you, that does look like what is happening but I just dont get how there's enough acid in the air to react an entire bag of 4-aco into (presumably) 4-ho-dmt....
 
the colored material is actually inactive quinone type stuff (i personally suspect it's too polar to effectively enter BBB, maybe not though) and its closely related to other neurotoxic substances (5,7-dihydroxytryptamine is a seorotonin-nerve-cell killer) so i would not be encouraging oxidation.

hydrolysis to form 4-OH compounds is a different story and is as easy as stirring the 4-aco ester in a citric acid solution at room temperature for a day. in fact if you live in a place with anything higher than 0% humididty then atmospheric moisture will even encourage hydrolysis.

there was a thread on erowid about the weird degradation products of 4-aco-DET. a bunch of strange compounds are formed from cross-acetylation of the indole nitrogen among other things. so who really knows what's responsible for the change in activity.
 
Maybe the conversion from acetoxy to hydroxy could also happen in a basic environment?
 
exactly, either extreme. But again how does this happen in a non-extreme environment and do so consistently? OThers have reported similar things...and additionally how van you speed his up or produce even more ideal condtions??
 
4-aco-dmt will hydrolyse in neutral water given enough time. because it's a phenol ester it is not as stable as something like e.g. ethyl acetate.
 
sekio said:
the colored material is actually inactive quinone type stuff (i personally suspect it's too polar to effectively enter BBB, maybe not though) and its closely related to other neurotoxic substances (5,7-dihydroxytryptamine is a seorotonin-nerve-cell killer) so i would not be encouraging oxidation.
Click to expand...

Could this oxidation occur during the vaporization of 4-aco-tryptamines? Could you vaporize these chemicals avoiding this risk?
 
Just wondering, where did you get this information?
Thats an interesting point that I have to look into a little which may accout for some ignorance in this statement, but if it is inactive, it doesnt explain the question of why the brown-looking, supposedly hydrolized or more-hydrolized material has qualatatively different effects.
Also assuming it is hydrolysis, that would mean that 4-ho-dmt presence is the cause. (Again going on assumption here)
So what im getting at is while
5,7-dihydroxytryptamine maybe neurotoxic it is close but not that-close to 4-substituted tryptamines.
While Ive only done 4-aco and mushrooms as far as basic tryptamines go, what other reports say of different 5-substituted tryptamines vs 4-substituted as far as effects seem to show that 5 subs are far more hectic and in some cases flat out dangerous.
The simple differences between those 2 subgenres of chemicals(4-subs and 5-subs) and the massive difference they have in effect, is reason to question wheter 5,7-dihydroxytryptamine is really THAT close.
Theres also no N-substitution suggesting more intricate interplay with binding protein than the active tryptamines which seem to agonize or antagonize whereas something like serotonin [5-ho-tryptamine is much closer and would be enough for me to still be interested im encouraging my 4-aco to do this.
 
I've only had one batch of 4-Aco-DMT, which came in the brown clumpy form, but things I noted about it in comparison to mushrooms before I even read this thread were:
- rainbow like colours in visuals
- more defined, angular patterns within visuals than mushrooms. i kept being reminded of phens and LSD, though the tryptamine feeling was still predominant
- slightly stronger trips than i was expecting given the doses
- a very euphoric body high and tactile enhancement that reminded me of MDMA (I had this on mescaline too)
- a more playful headspace than mushrooms which i find to be quite introspective

would be interested in getting a batch of the white one for comparison but it seems to have disappeared from the UK market AFAIK
 
sekio said:
the colored material is actually inactive quinone type stuff (i personally suspect it's too polar to effectively enter BBB, maybe not though) and its closely related to other neurotoxic substances (5,7-dihydroxytryptamine is a seorotonin-nerve-cell killer) so i would not be encouraging oxidation.

hydrolysis to form 4-OH compounds is a different story and is as easy as stirring the 4-aco ester in a citric acid solution at room temperature for a day. in fact if you live in a place with anything higher than 0% humididty then atmospheric moisture will even encourage hydrolysis.

there was a thread on erowid about the weird degradation products of 4-aco-DET. a bunch of strange compounds are formed from cross-acetylation of the indole nitrogen among other things. so who really knows what's responsible for the change in activity.
Click to expand...

Then it can't account for a very large portion of the substance usually, because often no loss in potency is found. And yes of course I know that very little is needed for discoloration.

I think I found in some erowid article that they found that acetyls had switched to the indole nucleus, apparently catalyzed by the presence of moisture... then again I would think that these N-acetyls are not darkly colored while quinone compounds have the 'right stuff' for that property.

Could it be not OR but AND? that both these types of degradation occur, but that initially it is hard to say if signficant quantities of quinones are produced?

Oh sorry you already included that in your post I now see
 
So is there any way that someone could easily convert a half gram or so of 4-AcO-DMT to 4-HO-DMT? Would this be possible just by leaving it out in a slightly moist environment?
 
I don't see how it is really viable to do this 'safely' i.e. in a controlled fashion. 4-HO tryptamines including psilocin are known to degrade quite rapidly if leaving to sit in a watery solution. And strongly basic or acidic conditions are even worse - I recall that from Hofmann's notes as well. Or was it that in freebase form it was very very vulnerable? Otherwise psilocin and psilocybin extraction would not be so painstaking if you could just do an A/B easily.

Am wondering if adding something like ascorbic acid will keep the proper 4-HO tryptamine favored, I recall something like that apparently reversing the darkening / gooefying of a tryptamine but unfortunately not exactly sure. May have been something else, or just some acid or base that perhaps buffered a soln.

IMO one of the few possibilities here would be to only take your single weighed dose of 4-AcO-DMT and try to hydrolyze the ester in vitro / in situ only just before you ingest it. A way to scavenge or convert the acetate may be ideal... (Ag+ too toxic? unfortunately yea). Somehow I think saponification would not be the best idea. Acid-catalyzed is similar to stomach environment, only you start a bit early with it..
 
Sadly I'm not chemistry savvy enough to quite follow what you're getting at Solipsis. If I'm going to need any materials or serious chemistry knowledge to induce hydrolysis I'll probably have my close friend that's majoring in physical biological chemistry as well as biochemistry help me out (if I even do this). Otherwise, is the brown goo supposed to actually be 4-HO-DMT for sure? Because I had tried some 4-AcO-DMT that was brown & clumpy/gooey and it definitely felt even more similar to mushrooms than the AcO counterpart. I had gotten that brown gooey 4-AcO-DMT from a friend and he said he had just left it sitting in a drawer in a plastic bag for a month or so when it turned brown. So maybe I could just leave my 4-AcO-DMT sitting at room temp and this would do the trick?
 
Last edited:
Had a 1/4 gram of 4 ho meet do that to me. I think it happened because the bag got some slight moisture in it. (I actually had just got arrested for a pot charge and I truck the bag in my butt crack and snuck it through booking lol ). I guess a month later it was dark brown and clumpy. But it was fire. It seemed to gain potency, but that might have been due to moisture in the powder making doses look smaller. I have another full gram of 4 ho met that is turning a shade darker every year and started white.
 
I'm positive its the moisture in the air that causes the change in color. So maby add it to a humid environment for a little while and that should do the trick . where its turning into psycilocin I don't know.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top