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Phenethylamines [Ego Death Subthread] By Using Phenethylamines

Jabberwocky

Jabberwocky

Frumious Bandersnatch
Joined
Nov 3, 1999
Messages
84,998
Hello,

Have you ever experienced a full ego loss experience from a phen? Just curious how you found the experience...if you would briefly describe the drug, dosage, and the characteristics of the experience of being ego-less.

I'm using the term ego-loss here as the effects of extremely intense psychedelic experiences where the person loses their self-concept and becomes a jumbled mess of concepts, precepts, sensations, etc. For instance, an out of body experience would not necessarily be an ego-loss experience, but an experience where the capacity for higher order conceptualizations like "I am here - I have taken a drug and I am named X" was not possible would count. Basically, the dissolving of the subject/object distinction that is worked toward with similar practices (meditation, drumming, traditional dancing, etc).

Me personally, I do not think I have ever experienced ego-loss on a PEA. I tend to not push the PEAs too high into +3 levels. I find that they are much harsher on my body/mind/soul and have thusly decided to conservatively dose the rest of my time using them.

The closest I have come to ego-loss on a PEA was on 2CT7 at 14mg rectal, but that was more like a delerium than proper ego-loss (and I was combining it with frequent tokes of 5-25mg of DMT).

Curious to hear what ya'll have to say!
Samadhi
 
I personally have never experienced ego loss on PEAS and find that some PEAS such as low dose MDMA and 2CB get me more in touch with the workings of my ego and emotions, which is a good in some sense because it gets me more in touch with my emotions and why I act the way I do. I find tryptamines to be much more cosmic in significance and they tend to strip away my ego until I'm just left with my bare being. I tend to stick to tryptamines for the above reasons and because I get farther with them. I find the trips to be much more profound and deep.
 
My idea of ego-loss is slightly more spiritual than the one you deliniated, but I realized that you've givn a defenition. If you're indeed asking about

extremely intense psychedelic experiences where the person loses their self-concept and becomes a jumbled mess of concepts, precepts, sensations, etc.
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Then yes, and like you, I've had it with 2C-T-7 (25mg oral). And like you, it was one of the only two trips I ever elt "delrious". That was easily the most confusing trip for me and its impact was totally neutral (in that it is something that "happened" and seems to be of no consequence to my day-to-day/spiritual life as ego-death usually does). It was the only trip I had with that compound and the only one I ever will.

If by ego-loss you are thinking more along the lines of a moment of "samadhi" ot Shulgin's "++++", or whatever you want to call it, then no - that is something only Tryptamines and Ergolines can do for me.
 
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FreedomOfTheMind said:
I personally have never experienced ego loss on PEAS and find that some PEAS such as low dose MDMA and 2CB get me more in touch with the workings of my ego and emotions, which is a good in some sense because it gets me more in touch with my emotions and why I act the way I do. I find tryptamines to be much more cosmic in significance and they tend to strip away my ego until I'm just left with my bare being. I tend to stick to tryptamines for the above reasons and because I get farther with them. I find the trips to be much more profound and deep.
Click to expand...
I agree with this post on absolutely all counts. Freedom, don't you think this supports taking only small doses of phenethylamines given the negative physical impact on one's body?

Jamshyd said:
My idea of ego-loss is slightly more spiritual than the one you deliniated, but I realized that you've givn a defenition. If you're indeed asking about


Then yes, and like you, I've had it with 2C-T-7 (25mg oral). And like you, it was one of the only two trips I ever elt "delrious". That was easily the most confusing trip for me and its impact was totally neutral (in that it is something that "happened" and seems to be of no consequence to my day-to-day/spiritual life as ego-death usually does). It was the only trip I had with that compound and the only one I ever will.
Click to expand...

You have not experienced this ego-loss state with tryptamines? Perhaps we are talking past each other if you didn't interpret that in my definition there is room for a spiritual explanation of the experience.

Jamshyd said:
If by ego-loss you are thinking more along the lines of a moment of "samadhi" ot Shulgin's "++++", or whatever you want to call it, then no - that is something only Tryptamines and Ergolines can do for me.
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Hm, interesting. Do you think this is something contingent to the chemicals and our brains (maybe you could throw in culture to that too) or do you think it something that transcends such a simple explanation? Is it true that you think the substance itself (DPT, for instance) is holy in and of itself?
 
I think I can say that I experienced an ego-loss with 4.4mg of DOC...it was a mystical experience with a cosmic orgasm of non existence where the question is the answer and you're allknowing for a second that last an eternity. :)
 
Ah, no. I did not mean to imply that (about exclusivity to PEAs). I did experience this state of utter identity confusion on Tryptamines as well... I can only think of Mushrooms now, but I am pretty sure there is one other experience like that as well with Tryptamines. Although this is not a personal experience, I can definitely see Ayahuasca leading to such a state easily.

However, I cannot say I gleaned any spiritual insight out of such states (and not much insight in general). To me, these states represent an ego that got shattered, but not forcefully enough to cease to exist. (keeping in mind that "Nothing" is my ultimate aim with everything I do, including psychedelics)

As for your questions, of course I share most of them and cannot give an answer. It just seems to me that phenethyalmines just don't go to the same "wavelengths" (so to speak) that Tryptamines and Ergolines can get to, but likewise, tryptamines are not as "useful" for certain kinds of introspection that phenethylamines allow for.

As for "holy" substances - absolutely not. I may call Ketamine or DPT "sacred", but that is only for poetic impact. That being said, such substances seem to be more readily conductive to transcendental experiences than others, for me.
 
Jamshyd said:


If by ego-loss you are thinking more along the lines of a moment of "samadhi" ot Shulgin's "++++", or whatever you want to call it, then no - that is something only Tryptamines and Ergolines can do for me.
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Agreed. Though I could see large doses of mescaline being very disorienting...

Salvia is probably the most violent ego-death experience I can have, everytime I am absolutely floored by it. 5-Meo-DMT smoking makes ego-death almost unavoidable....
 
I can't get too far with phens. All the 2c experiences I have had (quite a few in the past,) have never got me as far out as tryptamines, and I no longer really use them for that purpose. Like you say, Samadhi, they have a lingering effect on my body and energy. If you dose low with them and do not achieve what you were looking for, I reckon it takes about a month or longer before it is worth trying again. And having used one, it's lingering effect dampens the efficacy of any trypamine you might want to use during that phase aswell.
Having said that, I must admit, I don't think I have really had a complete ego loss with tryptamines, or at least if I did have, it was accompanied by amnesia.

On a different note, after a couple of months abstinence from phens, I gave myself 40mgs of 2ct7 last night, hoping to approach perhaps an out of body state. While it was very pleasant, visually and mentally, it just never felt like it had the potential that a good old monster tryptamine voyage can give. I did come up with some music which sort of wrote itself in the front of my mind. I was amused at the materialisation of thoughts in my attention, popping in and out of my unconscious mind and into view.
Later in the evening I dosed 4-AcO-DMT and was troubled as to whether it was ethically sound to combine the two. I have got what I can only describe as a relationship going with 4-AcO in the sense it seems to follow a sort of familliar time line and pattern. When this began to take effect over the backdrop of th 2ct7 the usual warm colours were tinted with a green/yellow bias which had constituted the visuals of the 2ct7 upto that point. It crossed my mind that I was somehow betraying the essence of the 4AcO that I have come to know and love. Also the buzzing and clicking I enjoyed with AcO was more jagged and disonant. Intersting but not such a soothing ride. Like the difference between the Troutmaskreplica LP and the White Album.
I will be giving DOM a crack soon and will report afterwards. From other reports, this may well have the porential to give ego loss and some of the bells and whistles of the trypts. But generally I am arriving at the conclusion that most phens seem to offer in the main recreational potential or creative headspace, saddled to some kind of physical and psychological disadvantages or tolerance.

In summary, its tryptamines that get my vote for the deepstuff.
 
^ awesome thoughts Pipp...I always love to hear what you think.

Jamshyd, I get your comments a lot more reading in (the somewhat) sober hours of the day. Thanks for taking the time to write them out, friend :)

peace,
samadhi
 
I have never expierenced ego loss with the 2c's. In addition they are WAY too speedy for me. Give me a 4-sub tryptamine anyday over a PEA.
 
The only PEA I really get into these days is MDMA and I should add that I have felt something akin to ego loss on that. I was on 300+ mgs and was dancing at a burner event when I guess one could say I "lost the plot".
 
Like others, the closest I have come to ego loss on PEA's was a high-dose 2C-T-7 trip. It was not pleasant–I had to take 2 mg xanax to blunt the effects.
 
Some of these posts--some self-admittedly--sound more like delirium than ego-loss/death; e.g. the MDMA dancing example sounds like it could have come about from overheating. Lightwarden a.k.a. Xorkoth has a report on Erowid about ego death resulting from a phenethylamine, 2C-E, that is definitely the real deal though. I feel I've come close with 2C-E, but that is the only phenethylamine I've used that I think could do it for me, including 2C-T-7.

For me ego death is an entirely distinct and unmistakable experience preceded by a loud sound similar to saw teeth grinding across an empty metal filing cabinet and a severe electric jolt. It's happened through 5-meo-DMT in combination with DXM, DPT, and ayahuasca (twice), and despite the differences between those drugs those aspects of the experience have been constant. My experiences with salvia are better described as "identity substitution," as the experience is still interpreted, just through a different filter. Ego death for me is totally impartial ego-pattern awareness, typically of that ego pattern panicking.
 
I will be giving DOM a crack soon and will report afterwards. From other reports, this may well have the porential to give ego loss and some of the bells and whistles of the trypts
Click to expand...

DOM is capabale of doing everything LSD can with the dosage range given in PIHKAL. I know people say that about 2C-E & 2C-T-7 (I've personally come close with 2C-E; never had 2C-T-7), but DOM really is the daddy of the PEAs (as in the 'who's the fuckin' daddy now' scene with Ray Winstone from the film 'Scum')!

Be careful with it and plan ahead before taking it as you will have boundless, directionless energy for the first couple of hours at leat & IME, unless you do something to burn it off it can turn in on you
 
PEAs will not provide you with ego-loss. Completely different action than a tryptamine or other serotonin agonist.
 
I have experienced ego loss with psilocybes, DMT, Salvia divinorum, DXM, nitrous oxide, ether, and ketamine, but never with any phenylethylamine (having only tried MDMA, MDA, and mescaline). I've never taken any "research chemicals"... I tend to lean towards natural hallucinogens. That's not to say that I don't want to try the full range of psychedelic; at the top of my to-do list are DPT, 2C-E, DOM, and all of them 4- and 5-substituted tryptamines.

The ego loss experienced with each substance is different, though ketamine, salvia, nitrous oxide, and ether feel very similar. All are very cog-in-the-machine-ish


gotta run, will finish later
 
People can do what they want with PEAS but I tend to use in lower doses. I find in conjunction with tryptamines they can over-power the profundity of the trip, such as candyflipping dampening the LSD. PEAS still have their place and can be useful, but I find them more recreational (which is spiritual in its own sense). I still will use PEAs but I like medium doses rather then higher doses since the negative body effects get too intense and ego inflation may occur (especially with MDMA)
 
^ again I agree completely and was actually going to ask you if you thought my use of PEAs in medium-low doses was justified. Right on man!
 
spun420833 said:
The only PEA I really get into these days is MDMA and I should add that I have felt something akin to ego loss on that. I was on 300+ mgs and was dancing at a burner event when I guess one could say I "lost the plot".
Click to expand...


Definitely... Lying in my bed after a good night of 200-300 mgs of MDMA, just floating, then wondering who and where the hell I am for what seems like hours on an end(probably only minutes, seconds). Then everything slowly comes back as I go back on my trails of thoughts until I remember I'm just lying in my bed.
 
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