Ego death/dissolution overstimulation

[cyberius]

When ego death is coming on psychs does anybody else feel EXTREMELY stimulated and torn away from reality? I feel like I keep approaching a state on mushrooms and decreasing doses of LSD (200ug does this now when 700ug didn't before) where there's no "I" anymore and my conscious floods with this extremely intense electricity like sensation but I fight it because it's super scary and I don't know what it means. Does this sound like ego death? I feel almost like I'm due for this, I've been on the line of experiencing this probably 4 times and each time I feel it gets stronger and harder to deal with

 

[pupnik]

check out the salvia scale
this sounds just like immaterial which is just beyond visionary, and just before amnesia

some people think amnesia is equal to ego-loss,
people can have ego loss experiences that are spiritual without amnesia.

 

[psy997]

I had a huge spiritual breakthrough two Fridays ago on DOC at a state park where multiple "things", for lack of a better word, came up that I was forced to ask myself when I would deal with, and if I was asking myself, then why not now. Culminating in the single handedly biggest breakthrough of my entire psychedelic and spiritual career; a true rebirth in alignment with Christ consciousness, if you will. You know you're almost there, you're just not taking the leap of faith. At least is what I'm getting, from this post and our previous PMs and interactions.

 

[Xorkoth]

Yeah ego death is generally preceded by an intense mental overstimulation, like I am thinking everything at once and all my thought trains happen instantly into infinity. This somehow leads me to the belief that I am about to die or transcend... it tends to cause panic.

My very first trip I had strong ego dissolution to the point that I awoke into the universal consciousness but I was still aware of my life as a tiny blip in a vast sea, I only ate 1.75 grams of mushrooms. The come-up of this experience was intensely mentally overstimulating too but it wasn't accompanied by panic or the belief that I was dying.

 

[cyberius]

I had a huge spiritual breakthrough two Fridays ago on DOC at a state park where multiple "things", for lack of a better word, came up that I was forced to ask myself when I would deal with, and if I was asking myself, then why not now. Culminating in the single handedly biggest breakthrough of my entire psychedelic and spiritual career; a true rebirth in alignment with Christ consciousness, if you will. You know you're almost there, you're just not taking the leap of faith. At least is what I'm getting, from this post and our previous PMs and interactions.

I've just had so many conflicting feelings about this whole ordeal and although some deep part of me wants me to go back and completely let go, the rational part of me keeps intellectualizing the experience and telling me I'll die if I go through with it.

 

[phuckingnutz]

...
some people think amnesia is equal to ego-loss,
people can have ego loss experiences that are spiritual without amnesia.

How would one know of ego loss it they have amnesia, don't you need to remember it for it to have happened, technically?
If you don't remember it, then it didn't happen, as far as ego loss goes...right?
I mean, I black out on a regular basis on DMT and , theses days, Ketamine and I have no idea what did or didn't go down while I was out. That can't be construed as ego loss can it? If so, I lose my ego nearly everyttime I smoke DMT.

 

[Xorkoth]

I had ego destruction (the best word to describe it) on 2C-E once, where I felt as if I was zooming out rapidly across unfathomable dimensions of existence, and eventually I reached oneness, and then that dropped away until I was a single point of awareness in an absolute void, facing absolutely no further subjective awareness at all. At that point I blacked out for about 30 minutes and came to on the way down back through those levels. In that case I experienced both ego death and amnesia.

 

[Kaleida]

Yeah, my mind always starts going crazy at the beginning of a really intense trip like this. I still feel the anxiety objectively but it doesn't bother me anymore after having experienced it so much, as long as I'm in the right set and setting for it. Notable exceptions include trying a new psychedelic or a new high dose of something and tripping WAY harder than you expected or planned for.... Definitely feel some terror at those times, for a little bit.

I used to get the feeling that I was dying a lot actually... but not really lately. I think I might be genuinely totally beyond that now finally. The only fear I ever really feel anymore is from knowing how intense the experience can be, and sometimes I'm bothered by the notion of leaving reality if I know I need to be able to keep track of things around me during that particular experience. Logical stuff really, nothing too trippy. Though, it has been some time since I had a really intense trip hit me.... Maybe I'm due for a check-up.

I've just had so many conflicting feelings about this whole ordeal and although some deep part of me wants me to go back and completely let go, the rational part of me keeps intellectualizing the experience and telling me I'll die if I go through with it.

That would actually be the irrational part of you.

How would one know of ego loss it they have amnesia, don't you need to remember it for it to have happened, technically?
If you don't remember it, then it didn't happen, as far as ego loss goes...right?
I mean, I black out on a regular basis on DMT and , theses days, Ketamine and I have no idea what did or didn't go down while I was out. That can't be construed as ego loss can it? If so, I lose my ego nearly everyttime I smoke DMT.

I would say technically no, but for all intents and purposes yes. Not being able to remember something doesn't necessarily mean you weren't experiencing it. Most of my hallucinogenic amnesia experiences actually feel like this as well; it's not necessarily that I feel that I've blacked out like on something like alcohol, but rather that I totally remember the feeling of being conscious and experiencing something for some duration time, but how much time and pretty much everything that happened in it is completely lost to me. I have had a full blackout on DMT before though, where suddenly it was like twenty minutes later and I wasn't tripping anymore, but the other way is generally how it goes. So, in that case I would say it's definitely possible for anything like that to happen, and then the memory just slips away afterward. But again, it's still more or less the same impact afterward, though I suppose some chemical cascades that may result from the experience could still have some lasting effect, maybe....

 

[Kaleida]

Totally agreed, it sure seems possible doesn't it? The science kind of seems like it supports this too, like the studies claiming that 5-HT2A is a stress receptor for instance. And if you haven't seen it, check this out: 5-HT2A receptor activation is necessary for CO2-induced arousal. It would appear that 5-HT2A is even the receptor that tries to kick you into action when you're suffocating. Sure seems like something that could kick off those traumatic brain circuits.... (Not to mention having interesting implications for the theory of the relationship between psychedelics and near death experiences.)

 

[phuckingnutz]

.....
I would say technically no, but for all intents and purposes yes. Not being able to remember something doesn't necessarily mean you weren't experiencing it. Most of my hallucinogenic amnesia experiences actually feel like this as well; it's not necessarily that I feel that I've blacked out like on something like alcohol, but rather that I totally remember the feeling of being conscious and experiencing something for some duration time, but how much time and pretty much everything that happened in it is completely lost to me. I have had a full blackout on DMT before though, where suddenly it was like twenty minutes later and I wasn't tripping anymore, but the other way is generally how it goes. So, in that case I would say it's definitely possible for anything like that to happen, and then the memory just slips away afterward. But again, it's still more or less the same impact afterward, though I suppose some chemical cascades that may result from the experience could still have some lasting effect, maybe....

Yeah, I've wondered whether I black out or I block it out. Like a traumatic experience. I've seriously wondered this. There's no way to know for sure, I guess.

 

[pupnik]

if you are going to black out - you do, even if it is just for a second.
the part between blackout or on the way back from it is the most interesting part.

 

[cyberius]

Totally agreed, it sure seems possible doesn't it? The science kind of seems like it supports this too, like the studies claiming that 5-HT2A is a stress receptor for instance. And if you haven't seen it, check this out: 5-HT2A receptor activation is necessary for CO2-induced arousal. It would appear that 5-HT2A is even the receptor that tries to kick you into action when you're suffocating. Sure seems like something that could kick off those traumatic brain circuits.... (Not to mention having interesting implications for the theory of the relationship between psychedelics and near death experiences.)

YES That was the answer I was looking for

I'm going to shatter my ego on 4g of shrooms tomorrow (1/16th gets me rocked). I'll report back how it goes!

 

[psy997]

Woo! We're rooting for you cyberius

 

[Kaleida]

Good luck!! Can't wait to hear how it goes.

 

[cyberius]

Dosed 4g of shrooms and 150ug of acid. I truly had an outstanding and reality shattering trip. Will post how it went tomorrow. Thanks for all the help guys

 

[Kaleida]

Yep, that kind of combination will do it lol. Awesome, I'm glad to hear it! :D And no problem, I'm happy it worked out! Looking forward to the report.

 

[rickonlsd]

Hi! I unexpectedly experienced ego death yesterday on my first LSD trip this weekend, and I just feel the overwhelming need to share. I wasn't really acquainted with the concept before I experienced it, and I've literally spent almost this entire time googling about and trying to understand the experience.


First a little context. I come from a scientific background, physics specifically, so to be perfectly honest I don't buy into any mystical New Age spiritual mumbo jumbo and want to understand what happened in scientific, neurological terms. I firmly believe consciousness is purely derived from physical processes (and I don't see any kind of explicit hand wavy quantum connection, the scale at which neurons operate is just all wrong for there to be any quantum effects involved and any interpretation of QM that somehow involves intelligent observers is just BS IMO). That said I do realize the profound problem with that, i.e. the "hard problem of consciousness" and "explanatory gap" between that and our actual internal consciousness experience and I'm utterly fascinated by it. Which is why I was always open to taking psychedelics if the opportunity arose (I don't drink or do any other kind of drugs). I've read quite a bit about the problem of consciousness, and I've read about Richard Feynman's interesting isolation tank experiences (he never took psychedelics though for fear of "messing with his brain machine"). And I also acknowledge I that I experienced something profound and that someone can only understand if they experience it themselves.


I have taken a mushrooms a few times with my wife and had a fairly enjoyable experience, but never experienced any kind of hallucinogenic effects other than an increased "sharpness" of experience. When my wife said she could get some LSD, I was all for it. This week was our anniversary so we decided that would be a perfect time to get the kids out of the house on a sleepover and take the plunge.


I believe we took whatever a standard "normal" dose is (especially since my wife didn't experience anything like ego death, from what I've read either high doses cause it or you have to trigger it yourself at lower dose, and "our guy" is a responsible dealer) and the first few hours were absolutely fantastic. We then decided to go upstairs to our daughter's room which has glow in the dark stars all of the ceiling and just chill out for bit. After a few minutes, I noticed my right arm was moving of its own accord. I explain to my wife how I have to consciously tell my arm to stop. We then decide to go back down stairs and as we get half way down I have to stop and sit down and start to look at my right hand. At that point I feel like I feeling my consciousness split my body in the middle. I then tell my wife "OMG I think I'm experiencing something profound" (I really wish I had a tape of myself during this so I could remember everything I did) I immediately start thinking about the cases where people that have severe epilepsy and the corpus callosum has to be cut, essentially rendering them almost as two beings living in the same head. From later reading on the subject I believe that the increased interconnection between brain lobes was allowing me to be aware of this.


At this point I do start to get a little scared and ask my wife to hold my hand as we go back to our bedroom. I start to feel like my consciousness is totally splitting up, and I'm starting to perceive how your ego is an illusion on top of all these component parts. After this I can't really even put into words what I experienced, and I have trouble really even remembering exactly what it was I was experiencing other than the feeling that I was discovering a profound truth, like the scales were dropping from my eyes. I forget exactly what I said (again god I wish it was taped, I need to ask my wife if she remembers) something like OMG I understand now. Then a feeling as if I was breaking through a barrier into another (or back into) reality at that point I feel myself coming back together and just like that I stopped seeing any visual hallucogenic effects it was like I was completely out of the trip and back to reality. The visual effects did come back after a few minutes but I was amazed how it was just completely shut off for a few minutes.


So that's my experience. It's really hard to even describe how profound it felt to me or even now to remember it fully (like a half forgotten dream). It was terrifying and wonderful and I'm glad I had the experience (I feel like I'm in club now that other people that haven't done it just won't get) but I'm not sure if I ever want to go through it again. One thought I had was "Oh god what if I permanently damage my brain or this psychological damages me (damaging my brain machine as Feynman would put it), whose going to take care of my kids, I want to see them grow up". I have a fear that if I did it again all those anxieties like that would come rushing back.

 

[pupnik]

You sound like an excellent candidate for Salvia!
your many questions can have some answers - here and through the web, but what kind of scientist are you so I can think up a suggestion about how to look at this?

 

[Rampelflik]

The weirdest ego-death experience for me was on a combination of acid and 2C-E.

A good friend and I were walking this route we would travers often while tripping. Somewhere along this trip I lost myself. It was sort of comparable to like how you can't remember the exact moment you fall asleep. When I think back, I remember being on a certain point on this route, and then a flash forward to another part on this route. What happend in between is gone, what happend after that is mostly gone as wel. I woke up at a friends place, bolting upright and singing merrily along with "have a cigar" by Pink Floyd. They told me to calm down and just chill out. Which I did, slumping back onto the floor and reentering a loop in which a thought would pop up as a result of a previous thought. This could be an object, concept, a friend or family member, etc. I had a strong sensation that this was a cyclical thought-loop, but would instantly forget the word that brought on the next in the loop. And I could only conjure up the next word when I arrived at the word I would think at that particular moment. I couldn't look two steps ahead or look one step back while still having the distinct suspicion it was a loop. In this state, I was not fully aware of who I was, or where I was in time or space. Before that state everything is very blurry. I know it consisted of a lot of archetypical concepts where base instincts ruled in a very dualistic manor. Feelings of energy and exhaustion, happiness and sadness, confidence and fear interchanging. I was going through all these possible states of being. Messianic moments of bliss and zen shifting to Hitleresque demonism, switching between being god and the devil incarnate from one moment to the next. While my mind was experiencing this, my body was on autopilot. Laughing, screaming, running and falling like a madman, or so I was told afterwards. I was not aware at the time. I would have plunged to my death, not even knowing it, would I've been standing on a tall building. It is likely I would've ended up as one of the classic "he must've thought he could fly" stories. I do remember maybe two flashes of seeing things that were not in my head. Like a sign on a building. Or the face of a good friend who was called in to try and manage this episode of mine. But at the actual time I saw these pictures of reality, I was not aware of their familiarity or significance.

It took my quite some time to give this experience a place in my life. It was quite shocking. I had no idea or indication I was slipping into this state when it was happening. No idea at all.

Since, I've become extremely wary of combining multiple psychedelics and will never do combo's lightly again.

 

[pupnik]

The weirdest ego-death experience for me was on a combination of acid and 2C-E.

... Somewhere along this trip I lost myself. It was sort of comparable to like how you can't remember the exact moment you fall asleep. When I think back, I remember being on a certain point on this route, and then a flash forward to another part on this route. What happend in between is gone, what happend after that is mostly gone as wel. ....

I keep referring to the amnesia state, more particularly to the magical state just before and just after amnesia (whiteout, or blackout).
As you mention above there are gaps in consciousness in your experience.

Dreams are remembered particularly well as we emerge from the "blackout" of sleep.

Occasionally during deliriant sessions (atropine, belladonna, nightshade...) the person sleepwalks in a world that is different but not too far from this world, and intermittently emerges and returns to the delirious state, which is a lot like sleepwalking.

Users of Salvia are familiar with the salvia scale of effects which ends with amnesia, nothing can be achieved beyond this state which is directly related to dosage. Just before amnesia is immaterial, in which the body is no longer consistent (you may become the couch you are sitting upon etc). Deliriants and extremely high dosages of psychedelics put you at the interface of immaterial and amnesia. This is all about dosage.

the term "ego-loss" and the term "breakthrough" relate quite a bit to the immaterial state in which body sensation is very much obliterated and transformed.

On the other hand "ego-loss" may specifically mean some particular philosophic experience though I have seen little consensus about what is ego, except we are universally inspired to dislike big ones like Donald Trump.

"Ego-loss" is compromised in translation and frequently converted into a materialistic consumable experience, typically a milestone for stoners, and generally termed breakthrough, and the salvia scale definition of "immaterial" describes it quite well.