Health Effects of Psychedelics on Children/young teen brain/mind

[wirkdy]

I was wondering if anybody ever did any studies on the topic, if ancient cultures administered psychedelics to children, young teen or if you know anything on the topic?

 

[arrall]

Unrelated controversies regarding MAPS aside, Dr. Mark Haden has some interesting ideas here.

His view is essentially that anybody mature enough to understand the gravity of taking a psychedelic should be able to take a moderate dose of one of the classical psychedelics under careful supervision from a trained professional, like with birth control.

Him and his team studied the use of psychedelics by indigenous tribes in Central and South America. They found that many tribes gave psychedelics to teenagers and some even gave them to children and pregnant women. They’ve been doing this for thousands of years with no issue.

And the increased neuroplasticity that younger people have may actually be a good thing, as it means that children and teenagers can repair any resulting unwanted neurological changes far faster and more easily than an adult.

I will say (from experience as somebody who started tripping at 15 and initially had some awful trips) that the important things to keep in mind are ensuring that the young person has a good environment to trip in with supervision from an experienced tripsitter who knows them well, a good mindset, and preferably no current active severe mental illness. The dose should also be kept especially low for a first timer (Maybe 1-1.5g psilocybin or 80-100ug of LSD.)

For more on Mark Haden’s viewpoint, here is a clip from an interview he did:

 

[Neuroborean]

I honestly don't think it's safe to use "mind-bending" substances while you're still underdeveloped, mentally, spiritually and physiologically.

I don't mind what "scientists" say about it because science, and specially neuroscience, is not a collection of closed and untouchable truths, and it is quite common that what was true and accepted 30 years ago is not so true now (regarding issues such as nutrition, psychology, etc. etc.).
For that reason, and because of my intuition, something tells me that the best age to start using psychedelics is when a person is sufficiently developed, when he/she has reached his/her peak of physiological development, usually after adolescence.
It does not mean that there could not be exceptions to this "rule", but I understand that 18-25 years is a quite acceptable age and that it carries less risk than when the brain is not fully formed.
In my case, when I'd became a parent, I will try to make my children understand this so that they do not do anything incautious (although I know that it does not do much good to give these warnings...).

 

[arrall]

@Neuroborean I think it is about maturity and not age. 12 or 13 is obviously far too early for most people but I think that most are also ready before 18-25. Many Indigenous tribes around the world have given teenagers ~15-18 large doses of psychedelics like peyote, ibogaine, ayahuasca, and psilocybin for thousands of years with no issues.

I will say that I found 15 to be too early (And I also took nearly 4 grams of psilocybe cubensis at that age) but when I later took 1.5g at 16 I found it to be one of the most positively impactful and meaningful experiences of my life. The experience caused me to cut someone off who I knew were leading me down a very dark path but who I couldn’t bring myself to cut out sober.

 

[arrall]

It is also important to keep in mind that psychedelics often drag people away from potentially far more damaging substances like nicotine, cannabis, and alcohol. The kind of teenager who is using psychedelics at a young age is probably also using other drugs that are far, far more damaging to the body, brain, and mind.

 

[Neuroborean]

@Neuroborean I think it is about maturity and not age. 12 or 13 is obviously far too early for most people but I think that most are also ready before 18-25. Many Indigenous tribes around the world have given teenagers ~15-18 large doses of psychedelics like peyote, ibogaine, ayahuasca, and psilocybin for thousands of years with no issues.

I will say that I found 15 to be too early (And I also took nearly 4 grams of psilocybe cubensis at that age) but when I later took 1.5g at 16 I found it to be one of the most positively impactful and meaningful experiences of my life. The experience caused me to cut someone off who I knew were leading me down a very dark path but who I couldn’t bring myself to cut out sober.

Physiology does not care about "maturity".
I was talking about two different issues, on the one hand spiritual/mental development and on the other hand bodily or physiological maturity. Mental and spiritual development has nothing to do with age, physiological does.

 

[Ismene2]

Maria Sabina says she and her younger sister used to take mushrooms pre-teen and laugh their fannies off. When their parents found them they wouldn't shout at them but simply take them in their arms and carry them back to the house...and then beat them about the head and neck with a broken bottle...no they just ignored it.

But there was no tradition of "everyone taking mushrooms" - one person took the mushrooms, the curando, and gave their opinion on the best cure for an illness after "consulting" the mushrooms. Maria was basically regarded as a wierdo/outcast by the other villagers - much like people who take mushrooms in the west.

 

[porkstock]

Many Indigenous tribes around the world have given teenagers ~15-18 large doses of psychedelics like peyote, ibogaine, ayahuasca, and psilocybin for thousands of years with no issues

That’s a pretty bold claim, don’t you think? THOUSANDS of years worth of doses teenagers and not a single problem?

I agree that the safer, harm reducing strategy would be to NOT give children psychedelics

I think even the claim that indigenous people used mushrooms or peyote for 1000s of years is largely unproven, but repeated so much that it’s commonly accepted as truth

I also think the brains doesn’t stop developing until around age 25, so most of us have probably tripped as children when it comes to brain development

 

[arrall]

Even for those who believe that psychedelics are neurologically and physiologically damaging (despite 60 years of research actually suggesting quite the opposite), the reality here is that the binary is not ‘Teenagers use psychedelics’ or ‘Teenagers use nothing’. Many of them are drinking heavily, smoking tons of cannabis (which we KNOW is very harmful to brain development). Many are smoking tobacco and using heavier drugs. And many also suffer from mental illness, which is generally quite neurologically damaging. A huge portion also suffer from childhood abuse and trauma, which is arguably one of the single most damaging external factors in almost every possible way.
Not to mention social media/internet/pornography addiction, lack of exercise, extremely unhealthy high sugar diets, etc.

So we know that psychedelics pull people away from these issues. Even if you believe that psychedelics are harmful for teenagers neurologically (which the burden of proof is on you to prove), the question is - Is taking psychedelics likely to be more harmful than allowing thee issues to continue? Which science so far has shown that the answer is definitely not.

I also think the brains doesn’t stop developing until around age 25, so most of us have probably tripped as children when it comes to brain development

Brains never stop developing.
But the vast majority of neurological development is completed by 16-18.
Also see:

the increased neuroplasticity that younger people have may actually be a good thing, as it means that children and teenagers can repair any resulting unwanted neurological changes far faster and more easily than an adult.

Can you explain why you think that the fact that the brain is still developing would make psychedelics harmful to teenagers?

@Neuroborean:

It is also important to keep in mind that psychedelics often drag people away from potentially far more damaging substances like nicotine, cannabis, and alcohol. The kind of teenager who is using psychedelics at a young age is probably also using other drugs that are far, far more damaging to the body, brain, and mind.

I would wager that many of the substances that most Western teenagers are putting their bodies are FAR, FAR more damaging than the extremely physiological safe classical psychedelics, wouldn’t you?

I agree that the safer, harm reducing strategy would be to NOT give children psychedelics

I wouldn’t call 16-18 year olds ‘children’.
The reality of it is that most teenagers today are struggling with mental illness and drug use, both of which are FAR, FAR more damaging to the mind and body than psychedelics. And most people cannot afford therapy, and even for those who can therapy is unsuccessful 40-70% of the time.

So what do people do then? Take daily SSRIs, or take psychedelics 1-3 times? I generally don’t think that putting a drug in your body daily for the rest of your life (or even a month straight) is healthy.

Psychedelics are also great at helping people discover their purpose in life. And our society does not afford us the leisure of waiting until 25 to decide. It expects everyone to have made up their mind by 17-18. I don’t see that changing anytime soon, and I think that psychedelics are amazing for helping someone to choose a path to go on in life regardless.

 

[Ismene2]

I can't think of any reliable evidence that suggests older people would give younger people psychedelics deliberately - I think young people have found a way to them by themselves.

And I don't buy this hippy idea that in the past south americans were all sat round tripping together like some big Woodstock. I think it would have been a minority pastime even in those societies too.

I love tripping more than most and I know it ain't for 99% of the people I meet on any given day. That goes for every society in history.

 

[arrall]

And I don't buy this hippy idea that in the past south americans were all sat round tripping together like some big Woodstock. I think it would have been a minority pastime even in those societies too.

It was generally a one time ritual undertaken by somebody when they turned ~14-18.
Some african cultures use iboga, which is infinitely more dangerous than classical psychedelics, and even then they lose less teenagers than we do to teenage alcohol overdoses.

 

[pupnik]

referencing thousands of years practice without documentation is speculative.
but hey, 14 is half of 28, and often 28 was considered old, and 12 was usually adult enough to start breeding.
This is different now, we have school (hopefully) and the literate dimension of our lives can be invaluable.
We live longer, and still we seem more hurried. This rushing about is countered by psychedelics and that in itself is a big plus.

Anyway, what happened in simpler ancient societies, was different than what happens in 2022.

At least some drinking might be avoided by legal pot. This is a huge plus, but still there are so many people suffering serious brain damage by teenage drinking and never recovering + drinking and drugs is not better than drinking alone.

the issue of neuroplasticity and psychedelics is more towards fringe science; much more study is required to examine brain tissue, and brain tissue with psychedelics specifically, but neuroplasticity is not to be considered a magic bullet that heals everything as the media portrays it. Some neuroplasticity is observed in healthy brain tissue, but it is not well understood - it is correlational but not clearly how.

Meanwhile there are serious moral issues about age:

• driving age,
• voting age,
• age of consent,
• child support provisions &
• child labor laws.
• there are rules about child actors as well,

and all these protections can be fairly examined to assess policies around psychedelic drugs and age.

for me, I have considered that sexual exploration and psychedelic exploration are near to each other in impact and consent issues.

 

[arrall]

At least some drinking might be avoided by legal pot. This is a huge plus, but still there are so many people suffering serious brain damage by teenage drinking and never recovering + drinking and drugs is not better than drinking alone

And psychedelics pull people away from both cannabis and drinking, do they not?
Cannabis use is FAR more damaging than psychedelics use.

If people claim that psychedelics are damaging to teenagers, then the burden of proof is on them to prove that.

 

[pupnik]

And psychedelics pull people away from both cannabis and drinking, do they not?
Cannabis use is FAR more damaging than psychedelics use.

If people claim that psychedelics are damaging to teenagers, then the burden of proof is on them to prove that.

as it about changing laws that exist the burden of proof is upon MAPS who helps the transition

 

[arrall]

as it about changing laws that exist the burden of proof is upon MAPS who helps the transition

Well MAPS has proven quite extensively that psychedelics are incredibly safe and have numerous medical benefits. We’ve seen that result consistently in research over the past 60+ years. And MAPS therefore is advocating that even teenagers who can understand the gravity of taking a psychedelic be allowed to trip under careful supervision, as I linked above. They are treating it like the birth control pill, and I’d imagine that there are far, far greater safety concerns with the pill than with psychedelics. But of course, the pill is still better than a teenager having a child. Hence why it is allowed.

So the burden of proof is now on those who disagree with teenagers being allowed to trip to disprove what MAPS is saying. Which nobody here seems to be able to do.

 

[TripSitterNZ]

perfectly fine. Tim leary and ram dass use to give 9 year olds LSD

 

[pupnik]

@arrall when MAPS can explain the teenage question clearly enough for a six year old or senator Manchin, we will be in heaven.

 

[arrall]

@arrall when MAPS can explain the teenage question clearly enough for a six year old or senator Manchin, we will be in heaven.

Well the video I linked is from their Canadian division, and thankfully north of the border our politicians do not have the mental capacity of 6 year old children.

 

[porkstock]

Birth control directly prevents pregnancy
Psychedelics do not prevent use of other drugs or any of the more dangerous teenage stuff that you mentioned. They can spark change but it take a lot of sober mental work.

 

[pupnik]

hey @arrall
I'm Canadian too.
apparently anything too complex for a six yr. old to comprehend needs to be more carefully articulated, or it needs the kind of mob appeal that twitter can produce, which nobody understands exactly, and which requires the epitome of moderation.
Occasionally Canada seems inspired.

@porkstock
most importantly "Birth control directly prevents"+unwanted+difficult+dangerous+unplanned+" pregnancy" empowering women of all ages, specifically teens.
it might be hard to equate the body's indiscriminate procreation disposition to the mind's indiscriminate addiction disposition