Effects NBOMe drugs vs. the "classic" 2Cs?

[Anon0631]

I don't get what people love about 2c-e. I've tried it at low, medium and high doses and to me it's the most boring of the 2c compounds I've tried (2c-c, 2c-b, 2c-i, 2c-e, 2c-t-2). It seems to me to be like the other 2c compounds but lacking in any emotional aspect that makes the series sparkle. Sure it's visual but if that's what you're after, tryptamines will get you further. I would prefer 2mg 25d-NBOMe any day.

 

[kidklmx]

Judging from the one report by Any Major Dude, 25E-NBOMe doesn't seem to be lacking in the emotional department. Possibly worthwhile as the alkylated seem a lot more benign (25D) than what we've come to expect from 25C and 25I.

But I think the neutralness is it's primary strength, allows for a much more objective view.

 

[Anon0631]

So, yesterday while utterly full of the joy and wonder of 2c-t-2, I spent some time thinking about this question and reframed my opinion.

When the phrase "psychedelic" is used (for me anyway), it invokes expectations of "things like LSD". NBOMes do a better job at falling into that category than 2c compounds. But if you re-categorise what you're judging to "things related to MDMA" then 2c compounds shine. With this frame of reference, rather than taking a +++ dose and looking for a crazy ride, you take a ++ dose and explore a more gentle side of emotions and subtleties.

I think this philosophy is encoded into the dose recommendations in PiHKAL. I always assumed that Shulgin was a bit of a lightweight which is why I would tend to use his highest dose recommendation as a starting point. But in fact, he's not stating a range of doses at which its possible to handle the compound safely, but rather what doses express what he designed the drug to do.

I think what interested Shulgin (at least the sense I have after reading PiHKAL), was how to turn a quiet afternoon at home into a magical experience. And the creative choices he made while designing his compounds were influenced by this.

Obviously all of this is strongly coloured by my personal relationships to various substances.I hope this makes at least some sense. I'm still integrating my thoughts from a very rich day.

 

[lamanogaucha]

Very slightly edited...

...rather than taking a +++ dose and looking for a crazy ride, you take a ++ dose and explore a more gentle side of emotions and subtleties.

I think that this philosophy is encoded into the dose recommendations in PiHKAL. I always assumed that Shulgin was a bit of a lightweight, which is why I would tend to use his highest dose recommendation as a starting point. In fact, he's not stating a range of doses at which it's possible to handle the compound safely, but rather, what doses express what he designed the drug to do.

I think that what interested Shulgin (at least this is the sense that I have after reading PiHKAL) was how to turn a quiet afternoon at home into a magical experience; the creative choices that he made while designing his compounds were influenced by this.

Excellent observation. I've been moving toward that outlook lately, not only with many of the compounds found in PiHKAL, but with many of those in TiHKAL too.

 

[Incunabula]

I think this philosophy is encoded into the dose recommendations in PiHKAL. I always assumed that Shulgin was a bit of a lightweight which is why I would tend to use his highest dose recommendation as a starting point. But in fact, he's not stating a range of doses at which its possible to handle the compound safely, but rather what doses express what he designed the drug to do.

I think Shulgin was up in his years when he discovered and tried many of the compounds in TIHKAL and PiHKAL. I think it's natural to become more "lightweight" when you get older. He says so himself in an interview I've read. I think it was the one in Vice.

If you look at DOM for instance, he includes dosages up to 10 mg. Obviously because it's a drug many people have tried, and that more is known about. I think it's also proabably a bit of HR from his side that the more unknown compounds, that only he and a few others have tried, have dosage recommendations in the low end.

 

[Anon0631]

I think my revelation (if you can call it that), was that I always assumed that Shulgin created all the possible compounds that he could think of in a certain class (phenethylamines for instance). In fact that's not really how he operated at all. He approached development of drugs the way one would breed a rose. Incrementally working towards his own understanding of an ideal. And therefore the compounds he created are as much an expression if his own sensibilities as a painting would be an expression of an individual artists' sensibilities.

If another chemist had spent 30 years making their own PiHKAL in parallel to Shulgin, their substances would have been completely different - the way two different artists portfolios would be.

Because of this, it helps to read the first half of PiHKAL if you want to understand what the man is like. From memory (it's 20 years since I read the book), the Shulgins spend much of their time making soup, gardening and pottering around the house, listening to the radio. Sometimes they gather with friends and value flowing conversations and word games. Food seems to feature more heavily than alcohol in their social gatherings and they really value their intimate, sexual connection when alone.

He made compounds that fit with his own quiet, contemplative lifestyle. Ones that aren't designed to smack you over the head but creep into your senses.

TiHKAL is much more of a rush job. He explored all possible variations on a set of known variables rather than breaking new ground and creating a new synthetic lexicon.

 

[kidklmx]

I don't think our understanding of SAR goes far enough that it can really be compared to an artist's painting, not even Shulgin's, but maybe his preferences to certain chemicals made him focus a bit more on certain structures. However, he did explore an extreme amount of possibilities within a class. Just look at the Shulgin Index, and that's not even the full extent of that because there's going to be a volume II. His goal with designing a new chemical is seeing how a subtle difference in the molecule changes the reaction in the body completely. He said something like this in 'Dirty Pictures'. The man is fascinated by chemistry and pharmacology, he's not doing what he does to make his sunday afternoons more enjoyable.

You're right though, his goal with taking psychedelics is certainly different from most of us here. I like his approach, and he certainly can be considered an artist with his work.

 

[.:Holy::Toast:.]

I don't get what people love about 2c-e. I've tried it at low, medium and high doses and to me it's the most boring of the 2c compounds I've tried (2c-c, 2c-b, 2c-i, 2c-e, 2c-t-2). It seems to me to be like the other 2c compounds but lacking in any emotional aspect that makes the series sparkle. Sure it's visual but if that's what you're after, tryptamines will get you further. I would prefer 2mg 25d-NBOMe any day.

Really? I found 2c-e to have the most substance in that regard.
Very visual yes, also very emotionally powerful

 

[flat-line]

I am not a big fan of 2Cs, I just find them rather shallow. But.. 2CE, Love it. The depth and clarity is so beautiful, most psychedelics for me the internal refection gets clouded by emotion and thought patterns. 2CE is so neutral and clear.

2CE is inconstant for me I can take 24mgs and be mild, a month later take say 16mgs and wow.. As far as a general walk in the park/enjoy a music festival it is not that great, but for a dark rain day review my life 2CE would be my pick.

 

[Anon0631]

I don't think our understanding of SAR goes far enough that it can really be compared to an artist's painting, not even Shulgin's, but maybe his preferences to certain chemicals made him focus a bit more on certain structures. However, he did explore an extreme amount of possibilities within a class. Just look at the Shulgin Index, and that's not even the full extent of that because there's going to be a volume II. His goal with designing a new chemical is seeing how a subtle difference in the molecule changes the reaction in the body completely. He said something like this in 'Dirty Pictures'. The man is fascinated by chemistry and pharmacology, he's not doing what he does to make his sunday afternoons more enjoyable.

I'm not sure I agree. His research was informed entirely by the subjective effects he experienced when trying each substance. To my knowledge he didn't use rats trained to discriminate for LSD and pigs in FMRI machines. He used himself and his friends and family.

A hypothetical chemist using the same method who didn't find the effects of DOM interesting but enjoyed taking MDA might have put their research efforts into discovering Methylenedioxy amphetamine analogues rather than 2,5 dimethoxy phenethylamine analogues. We might have seen a whole lot of substances like 5-APB and a hundred or so currently unknown compounds that lie down that route.

Equally if this chemist threw a sulphur atom at the 4 position of 2c-h and didn't like the subjective effects, (s)he wouldn't have gone on to make 2c-t-2, 2c-t4, 2c-t-7, the HOT series, Aleph and the other 20 odd 4-thiowhatever-2,5-dimethoxy compounds

What I'm saying is that however much Shulgin knows about structure/activity relationships, his research direction was informed by whether he liked what he tried and that is dependent on his personality and lifestyle. Multiply these decisions by 179 and you have a pretty unique expression of the man himself.

 

[thizzkid]

I agree with holy toast on the emotional part of 2ce, just saying.

Ive done 2ce, 2ci and 2cb as well as 25i, 25c and 25b-NBOMe's all multple times and I have to say that I honestly think there are very few similarities other than the kinds of similarities that all psychedelics share (ie; tracers, morphing, color enhancement) but each have those aspects to varying degrees of intensity. As far as emotion goes with these drugs, I'd definitely say that NBOMe's have always lacked in emotion and can be very cold even, particularly 25i. They produce thought-loops much more frequently than the 2c's and the comeup can often be fast and intense for a lot of people. I honestly think theres something wrong with the NBOMe's as a whole. I've great experiences on each but they cause more adverse reactions in much higher a percentage of first time or even veteran users than any other psychedelic(s) I've seen.
I would always prefer a real 2c to an NBOMe
that being said here are my words on each;

2C-x's:

2cb: Very colorful and friendly; the most colorful of the 2cs ive tried. of all the drugs I listed here, NBOME or 2c-x, 2cb is the easiest going and the most promising for a good time imo. Warm like mdma but not a roll, certainly a trip. High doses (ie:45-60mg) seem to mimic LSD almost but with a clearer head. This ties with MDMA as my 3rd favorite drug behind Mescaline and LSD. Breathing smooth visuals, and smiling faces all around guaranteed. Combines with LSD and or MDMA/MDA for incredibly euphoric trips that nothing else iv'e done has produced.

2ci: The closest 2c-x to 2cb, but slightly less colorful and visual.....until you close your eyes that is. That's also not to say oev's aren't there, the tracers from 2ci are some of my favorite in the psychedelic world and the visuals are very happy and its probably even more of a smiley drug than 2cb, but the closed eye patterns can be incredible. This ones dosage seems to vary more among the population than 2cbs but still isnt as radical as 2ce in this manner. Most people describe this drug as stimulating, but I have found that in the doses I take (30-45mg) it is very much the opposite and makes me very lazy and gives almost a stoned feeling. Ive found myself blazing in my car on 2ci and I ended up killing the battery because I was too lazy to go back inside and just decieded to listen to music for 6 hours until my car died haha. NBOMe's were certainly more stimulating, particularly 25i-nbome.

2ce: AH this one....the first time I did this drug I wasn't sure why it was one of shulgins half-dozen instead of 2ci, but as I continued to play with it it showed its softer side and I've had some of my most incredible trips on 2ce. Its certainly the most emotional of all the 2cs in my book, whether that be happy or otherwise....Shulgin called this his "difficult child" and with good reason. It can be intense, but if you look for the brighter side of the trip it will take you there. Not for beginners most likely, or someone just trying to "get fucked up". This is a special one and you need to make friends with it before it will treat you nicely. on another note, Iv'e combined each of the 2cs i tried with mdma and all of them combine wonderfully, but I called the MDMA + 2CE trip a sparkle flip because there is some kind of just pure magic about it. Not as colorful as a candyflip, but can be even more powerful emotionally. My most intense open eyed visuals have been produced from combining a nasal dose with an oral dose
of 2ce + MDMA (both oral and nasal for both drugs) and was one of the most wonderful trips I've ever experienced.

25x-NBOMe's

25b-NBOMe: An interesting drug, probably tied with 25c in my opinion but each have their place. Very colorful like its parent 2c-x but lacking the forced happiness allowing the trip to any direction emotionally. A very thought-loop producing drug, which if the emotion is negative, can lead to catastrophic results at low doses. I have an experience like this with my friend who freaked out and then went unresponsive at only 1mg. The story is here http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/679079-25B-NBOMe-warning-bad-trip-non-fatal-overdose-1000ug
Then again though, like I said, the whole NBOMe family seems sketchy to me now....

25i-NBOMe: This one....I have only ever had kinda-good experiences on this drug. A sharp comeup, intense tracers (which I usually love but theyre like almost too crazy with this drug) not much color enhancement, but a lot of morphing visuals. People seem to try this most often and enjoy it the least often of all the nbomes, but I think that's because of availability. Probably one of my least favorite drugs overall; its one draw is that its dirt fucking cheap.

25c-NBOMe: Like I said, tied with 25b-nbome. Not as colorful as 25b though, but the open eyed visuals are probably cooler overall. Not a very mental drug, certainly not like 25b, and is probably the most light-hearted and LSD-like of the NBOMe's IMO. One aspect of this drug that is very unique to it is that it has the most odd, silly CEV's I've ever seen. They are very vivid but make no sense, for example, one that sticks out in my memory was a CEV where there was boy dressed in like stereotypical like little boy clothes with like red shorts and a striped shirt with one of those propeller-topped hats holding a spiral-circle lollipop and he said "hey I'm mike!", turned around, and when he turned around he was some how an alligator.....hahaha things like that.

All in all if you have access to both, go for a 2c-x, the come-up is longer and smoother and allows you tog get acquainted with it whereas the NBOMe's throw you into a full blown trip within 30 minutes and aren't always that nice about it. Visuals are crazier on NBOMe's but kinder to the user on 2c-x's. NBOME wins the price game though....they are so fucking cheap i cant believe it. But that price is not worth the price of the skethyness I associate with NBOME's and because of that 2c's are my better IMO

I hope this helped! haha

 

[slownerveaction]

After being graced with some 25C-NBOMe experiences, I have to admit that the N-akylation of 2C-C really saved 2C-C from the waste bin. For the most part I just don't enjoy 2C-C but the same structure as part of the NBOMe compound is spectacular if somewhat understated. There's a certain viscerality to the 2C parent class that wasn't captured in the 25C-NBOMe experiences but for the increased quality of experience of 25C-NBOMe over 2C-C I'd be hard-pressed to say that I cared.