DXM Polystirex to regular DXM

[rentmitchum]

Alright I was interested in knowing from people with a wider range of experience in chemistry if they have any info on this..

I've read on.. totse or something.. I forget where.. here it is:

http://www.totse.com/en/drugs/otc/dxmpolistirexs168881.html

It's basically a way to take the polystirexed DXM out of the Delsym.. so you'd just be left with.. granules of DXM poly with less syrup ingestion.

It's been my understanding Delysm has regular hydrobromide in it as well.. so you get a more immediate dose and then the polystirex likely degrades enough to release more near the end of the initial dxm.. so...

I was wondering if anyone knows if possibly adding something to make delsym more acidic could degrade the plastic like stomach acid does to make it more immediate. This was my idea, I don't see much talk about it searching.. From back in my Agent Lemon days, I seem to remember if you left the DXM Hydrocitrate sitting too long in the acidic solution, the DXM would slowly convert to DXO the longer it sat.. so..

If you made Delsym more acidic, or if you used the method on that totse link to get the DXM out (although I think with that method you'd lose the non-coated DXM if that's how delsym is.. that was just my understanding of delsym.. otherwise people using it therapeutically would have to wait awhile for any relief) then could that degrade the plastic coating enough to dose it all at once?

Also the main reason, if I remember right, for wanting to not use Delsym is because redosing on DXM inhibits it's own metabolism, doesn't it? Like the way I remember it (I haven't used DXM in awhile, excuse my forgetfulness) is that ideally, you want a mix of DXM and DXO. When you dose, the effects are from DXM and then the active metabolite DXO. When you redose, DXM use inhibits it's own metabolism, so a redose results in more of the DXM effects and it can't turn into DXO as readily, or it's the other way around.. I'm not certain, maybe the problem with redosing was it all turns into DXO and there's not enough DXM effects... I'm not sure but I think it was the first way.

So do you think acidifying a solution of polystirex would possible degrade the plastic enough to avoid the problems associated with Delsym use (the same problems as redosing on DXM) or do you think the acidification of the solution would turn the DXM into DXO.

What I don't remember is if DXM only turns into DXO when it's freebase. I remember it being talked about for the last stages of Agent Lemon (like if you wanted to store agent lemon for later) when it's freebase in naptha, and then you can evap and have freebase, or add citric acid (like country time or lemon juice) to get a solution with DXM Hydrocitrate. So the question is, will Hydrobromide start turning into DXO from making the solution more acidic in an effort to dissolve the polystirex.

I know this sounds like more effort than it's worth, but I ask for a friend who doesn't get online much who would like to know if Delsym could be a source of DXM for him.

Even if not the most practical, this could be considered useful info for someone out there.. and it'd be good info to have available for people in the future who wanna know.. I'm also curious if it's possible..

Thanks, I'd appreciate your input. Please excuse my limited knowledge of chemistry, and note I haven't actually done the agent lemon extraction or used DXM in quite awhile.. but I'm trying to find out this info for someone else.. so if my info sounds off then that's sorta why..

edit- also, if you know another way other than mine to make poly into an non coated form, lemme know.

 

[nuke]

From back in my Agent Lemon days, I seem to remember if you left the DXM Hydrocitrate sitting too long in the acidic solution, the DXM would slowly convert to DXO the longer it sat.. so..

You need a strong acid to cleave an aryl ether; citric acid will not work.

To convert from the polysulfonated salt all you should need to do is mill the tablets finely and then put them in a basic aqueous environment with some ethanol (eg, aqueous MgOH and a little ethanol).

 

[MattPsy]

MgOH? Eh? That would be Mg(OH)2, but why magnesium hydroxide..?

 

[nuke]

MgOH? Eh? That would be Mg(OH)2, but why magnesium hydroxide..?

Right, it's second right from the left. It's OTC in most places (milk of magnesia), and it's an easily ingestible base, while at the same time also a strong base. The sulfonic acid to which DXM is bound should be displaced.

 

[Tchort]

DXM Polisterix is just Dextromethorphan Hydrobromide coated in edible plastic.

Here is a list of the inactive ingredients in Delsym:

Citric acid, edetate disodium, ethylcellulose, FD&C Yellow No. 6, flavor, high-fructose corn syrup, methylparaben, polyethylene glycol 3350, polysorbate 80, propylene glycol, propylparaben, purified water, sucrose, tragacanth, vegetable oil, xanthan gum

The easiest way to turn the extended release DXM Polistirex into immediate release Dextromethorphan Hydrobromide, you would extract the granules of DXM Polistirex from the suspension using a method like the one in the text file, dry the granules by tamping down on them lightly with a paper towel, putting the now dry granules of plastic coated DXM Hbr into a mortar & pestle, and crushing them into a fine powder. Now you're left with a pile of finely ground DXM Hbr and edible plastic, which can be put into a drink, gelcaps, etc. and consumed.

Keep in mind, Dextrorphan is a Schedule I drug in the US. If any DXM Hbr degrades into DXO, you now have possible felony possession of a CDS on you. Also, while going through all of this trouble, DXM HCL is considered by some to be more pleasant with less side effects than DXM HBR. Converting DXM Hbr to Hcl is a snap, may be worth the trouble.

 

[nuke]

You just violated the Lomonosov-Lavoisier law (conservation of mass). There is no hydrobromic acid in the polistyrex salt of dextromethorphan. The drug is bound to a sulfonic acid group in a polystyrene resin. The resin can also be solvated through other means, but the easiest way to liberate the dextromethorphan should be as a freebase in the presence of a strong base. You could also solvate it first in something non-polar if you wanted to be thorough, but I think some ethanol should be enough.

 

[Hammilton]

DXM Polisterix is just Dextromethorphan Hydrobromide coated in edible plastic.

nonsense

 

[QuasiStoned]

I'm P450 CYP2D6 deficient so I can't metabolize the DXM -> DXO. I wish there was a relatively simple way to do that because I have a feeling DXO would be a lot easier on my body than DXM.

DXM has too much Sigma activity and not enough NMDA antagonism to make it a worthy experience for me.

 

[colors]

the easiest way to liberate the dextromethorphan should be as a freebase in the presence of a strong base. You could also solvate it first in something non-polar if you wanted to be thorough, but I think some ethanol should be enough.

so you could go straight from the polistyrex granules > dissolve in ethanol > consume ... is that what you're saying?

 

[nuke]

It's possible; the polystirex is also more soluble in ethanol, but I would add a little base to make sure they dissociate completely and accelerate the solvation. But technically you shouldn't need the base anyway...

 

[colors]

i'm a bit confused :/ if the poli dissolves in ethanol, why would you want to basify it?
if it doesn't, then i understand you would freebase it first with the MOM and then dissolve the resulting base in ethanol, so that it could be absorbed by the stomach.

i'll try this out and post back. love delsym!

 

[nuke]

I'd start with maybe a half gram of the polistirex salt if you have the powder milled finely, boil the water, add enough EtOH to make the solution 5% and only a little milk of magnesia (half a teaspoon), add the powder, stir repeatedly, consume when it's cool enough after another good stir. Polystyrene is somewhat soluble in ethanol while mostly insoluble in water.

If this doesn't work, I'd say mixing in a little limonene (a cheap, non-toxic essential oil and non-polar solvent) with the polystirex salt, then once it appears dissolved, then adding that to warm water. The DXM sulphate should leave the solvated polystyrene and enter the H2O, at which point you can drain off the limonene and they dry the aqueous solution to get DXM sulphate crystals.

 

[colors]

sry i completely edited the previous post. you could reply to the revamped version if you feel like humoring my dumb ass. thx

 

[nuke]

i'm a bit confused :/ if the poli dissolves in ethanol, why would you want to basify it?

Actually, you're right, what I posted doesn't make a lot of sense in retrospect. I thought it might solvate faster in the presence of a lot of electrolytes, but I'm not sure it would (which was probably why Matt was confused too). A hot solution with some ethanol might be enough, and barring that, I think the d-limonene would work, and hopefully yield pure crystals of the sulphate! Not to mention d-limonene is pretty cheap, easily available, and readily dissolves polystyrene.

 

[rentmitchum]

Wow, thanks for the all info and interest in the topic nuke. The response to this was exciting.

Even though I'm asking for a friend, it's still fun to read about for me. He basically wanted me to post a topic because I know a little more about chem than he does and have done the agent lemon extractions and some other things in the kitchen in the past. Still, this is a really interesting read.

So I still have some questions, but a lot of good ideas are being thrown around.

Is Delysm, the DXM, is it DXM freebase molecules bound to polystyrex? I mean, I'm not a chemist, but is the polystyrene version of DXM considered a "polystyrene salt"?

Like it's my understanding that when DXM is reacted with hydrobromic acid, it becomes a "hydrobromide salt form" of DXM.. So when polystyrene is added, is that considered a "polystirex salt" form? That's probably wrong, it sounds wrong, but I wanted to know just so I'm using the right terminology.

So when you do whatever reaction you need to get DXM on it's own, it's freebase? Or is the form of DXM bound to the polystyrene DXM Sulphate? I think we've established it's not HBr, right?

If it's sulphate, is that because of the reaction of the freebase, when it is free from the poly, reacting with d-limonene?

D-Limonene is available in chem type supply places, or is it sold as something else like naptha is paint thinner? If answering that (or my asking it) was against the rules I apologize in advance, and no one needs to answer it.. I can look that part up.

So the main thing I wanna know is, does the limonene dissolve the poly, and then what. Is the DXM in it's freebase form, then the limonene turns it into sulphate? Or is it DXM Sulphate with the plastic bound to it, so the limonene's only role is dissolving the poly?

I'm pretty sure you're gonna end up saying that DXM Sulphate is what you're left with after the poly is gone and the limonene doesn't make it sulphate.. because limonene wouldn't make the sulphate salt of DXM, you'd need sulfuric acid for that, right? This is what I think is right with my limited chem knowledge. Thanks for bearing with me, better-at-chem-people

Oh and if you removed the non-polar limonene, that'd remove akin to naptha right? like it'd float on top of the water? Except this time, the goodies would be in the water part unlike agent lemon. The poly would be in the limonene?

Could you then basify the DXM sulphate and make it freebase and evaporate to DXM freebase powder? Does anyone have experience with dosing with the sulphate form of DXM? Is that what is in Zicam? Is that what was in those Thin Strips? Are there any new products with DXM Sulphate that I'm unaware of? This really is for a friend of mine, lol, like I haven't been into the DXM scene since Zicam was brand new.. and I hear Nite is gone now.. so.. yea That's probably enough questions for now

Thanks a lot for all the feedback. My friend was happy with this topic's response. If I can figure out a decently easy way to do it and explain it to him, he thinks it could be useful.. and it looks like it would be useful for several other Bluelight users as well.

and again thanks a lot, I like the enthusiastic and extremely intelligent replies. I'm gonna have to start posting more for my own interests and not just my DXM pal's chem questions. haha

 

[nuke]

Wow, thanks for the all info and interest in the topic nuke. The response to this was exciting.

Even though I'm asking for a friend, it's still fun to read about for me. He basically wanted me to post a topic because I know a little more about chem than he does and have done the agent lemon extractions and some other things in the kitchen in the past. Still, this is a really interesting read.

So I still have some questions, but a lot of good ideas are being thrown around.

Is Delysm, the DXM, is it DXM freebase molecules bound to polystyrex? I mean, I'm not a chemist, but is the polystyrene version of DXM considered a "polystyrene salt"?

It's DXM sulphate trapped inbetween polymerized styrene (polystyrene). It dissociates slowly from the plastic in your body when you consume it. Polistirex comes in cationic and anionic forms to salt with either basic or acidic pharmaceuticals. Usually sulfuric acid is in the anionic form.

Like it's my understanding that when DXM is reacted with hydrobromic acid, it becomes a "hydrobromide salt form" of DXM.. So when polystyrene is added, is that considered a "polystirex salt" form? That's probably wrong, it sounds wrong, but I wanted to know just so I'm using the right terminology.

So when you do whatever reaction you need to get DXM on it's own, it's freebase? Or is the form of DXM bound to the polystyrene DXM Sulphate? I think we've established it's not HBr, right?

If it's sulphate, is that because of the reaction of the freebase, when it is free from the poly, reacting with d-limonene?

D-Limonene is available in chem type supply places, or is it sold as something else like naptha is paint thinner? If answering that (or my asking it) was against the rules I apologize in advance, and no one needs to answer it.. I can look that part up.

Limonene is so called lemon cleaner, a probably non-toxic solvent similar to toluene. It's not soluble in water, like naphtha. It's also sold food grade as a flavourant. It smells intensely citrusy.

So the main thing I wanna know is, does the limonene dissolve the poly, and then what. Is the DXM in it's freebase form, then the limonene turns it into sulphate? Or is it DXM Sulphate with the plastic bound to it, so the limonene's only role is dissolving the poly?

I'm pretty sure you're gonna end up saying that DXM Sulphate is what you're left with after the poly is gone and the limonene doesn't make it sulphate.. because limonene wouldn't make the sulphate salt of DXM, you'd need sulfuric acid for that, right? This is what I think is right with my limited chem knowledge. Thanks for bearing with me, better-at-chem-people

Oh and if you removed the non-polar limonene, that'd remove akin to naptha right? like it'd float on top of the water? Except this time, the goodies would be in the water part unlike agent lemon. The poly would be in the limonene?

Could you then basify the DXM sulphate and make it freebase and evaporate to DXM freebase powder? Does anyone have experience with dosing with the sulphate form of DXM? Is that what is in Zicam? Is that what was in those Thin Strips? Are there any new products with DXM Sulphate that I'm unaware of? This really is for a friend of mine, lol, like I haven't been into the DXM scene since Zicam was brand new.. and I hear Nite is gone now.. so.. yea That's probably enough questions for now

Thanks a lot for all the feedback. My friend was happy with this topic's response. If I can figure out a decently easy way to do it and explain it to him, he thinks it could be useful.. and it looks like it would be useful for several other Bluelight users as well.

and again thanks a lot, I like the enthusiastic and extremely intelligent replies. I'm gonna have to start posting more for my own interests and not just my DXM pal's chem questions. haha

The limonene dissolves the polystyrene, and the sulphate salt of DXM, being mildly water soluble, precipitates out from the non-polar layer into the H2O. You then discard/save for later use the non-polar layer. Drying the aqueous solution yields DXM sulphate. You'd probably be best off doing this with a lot of DXM polistirex. You could then get the freebase but the sulphate should work just as finely.

Styrene is soluble in ethanol too, so that's why I wrote about the ethanol solution.

 

[johanneschimpo]

Why not just buy a bottle of cough syrup/cough gels containing only DXM HBr?

 

[nuke]

Why not just buy a bottle of cough syrup/cough gels containing only DXM HBr?

The advantages would be that it's really easy to make powdered dxm from the polistirex syrup and that DXM HBr is not available in certain places.

 

[Ylide]

Uh, I'd just like to point out that your anion is covalently bound to the polymer in polistirex, and a positively charged DXM isn't just going to diffuse away from the polymer unless some ion exchange takes place

 

[nuke]

Uh, I'd just like to point out that your anion is covalently bound to the polymer in polistirex, and a positively charged DXM isn't just going to diffuse away from the polymer unless some ion exchange takes place

Oh, that makes sense, like sodium alkyl benzene sulfonate. In that case, I'm not sure. If you acidified the H2O would the DXM prefer the aqueous phase? Or would you have to basify first with something that caused the polistirex to move into the aqueous phase, discard the water, then precipitate the DXM out with an acid?

Sorry rentmitchum, it's more complicated than I thought.