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Miscellaneous Drugs as medicine vs medication?

Mjäll

Bluelighter
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
3,700
I am entertaining a slight abstraction bias (some might say maña) and have concluded that daily medication with drugs is an absurd concept.

Acknowledging my bias i realize that this isn't necessarily true. However, it would be nice since then the problem of distinguishing psychiatric medication from drug abuse would disappear. Everyone could strive clearly toward responsible drug use, alone and together.

I find that the best drug highs are the few and far between, with the more cognitively dynamic drugs - i.e psychedelics, dissociatives, cannabinoids and perhaps empathogens. I suspect that it's wise to avoid any drug that mostly serves to linearly amplify perceived well-being one way or the other. I am skeptical toward daily prescribed benzos, stimulants, opioids, SSRI's etc. I find that the experiential cognitive benefits of psychedelics and dissociatives are what brain medicine is actually about. To chronically overload a neural parameter fighting desensitization is a failure. To produce a transformative experience from a single or a few relatively harmless drug administrations is a great success.

The main problem is emotional hang-ups affecting neural functioning, i guess my hypothesis would entail. You can work the funk out, ayahuasca style. I've never done that personally but similar on other stuff. Work it out, and regain mental balance. Don't try and compensate with receptor spam every day...

What do you think? Any experience with drug abuse or psychiatric medication? Any justifications or criticisms?

This thread is not meant as an attack on anyone whether an abuser or psychiatric patient or neither. I am curious about your thoughts and ideas on this.
 
To me there is a pretty clear difference between drug use and medications. One is designed to make you feel better than normal, prescribed medications are designed to only make you feel normal, not above baseline. At least that is their designated use.

Psychedelics are somewhere in between for me and a lot more unpredictable. I became psychologically addicted to them at one point, I became addicted to their use for escapism from my problems which it ended in complete disaster and permanent neural damage with lasting problems years later.

Psychedelics have been both more constructive AND more deconstructive in my life, in my experience and my use of them, compared to the pills a doctor will give you. Or even other street drugs...

I support their use in psychiatry... but also am hesitant to fully endorse it. There is always a potential someone will be treated with them and end up loving it so much then end up abusing it. (just like any psychoactive medication)

I think we have a lot to learn about neurology before we start fully endorsing them for any such purpose, but I am very excited about their current progress in psychiatry in some countries even though I don't intend on ever using them for that purpose again.

I love psychedelics... but damn, they fucked my brain up permanently* after overusing them...

*I have seen a major return to normalcy after a few years, but never back to baseline. I believe this to be serotonergic brain damage, which is known to be permanent and lasts forever, according to a few papers I have read as well as other examples of people who abused serotonergic drugs and are still abnormal decades later (whom I know and talk to). Although, there were several more factors which played into this and it wasn't the drug alone. Alcoholism, various other drugs, chronic sleep deprivation, extreme stress, poor nutrition... misuse...... etc, etc, all of which cause neurological changes on their own... and then the tryptamines and lysergamides were the straw on the camel's back for me....
 
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Well... I would not say it's an absurd concept, personally, at least not in the present day - I could envision a time in which it might be considered an absurd concept.

Firstly, though - the primary "problem" that you highlight, the distinction between "psychiatric drug use" and "drug abuse" is not one that I recognise. In fact, the very concept of drug abuse is, IMO, an absurd framing of the situations in which people are using more drugs than is good for them. Additionally - it is highly relative. For many people, drug abuse simply means using ANY drug that one is not prescribed by a medical professional. It can mean simply deviating slightly from the advice, or legally sanctioned dosage pattern, given by a medical professional. There might be a world in which the term could be used in a benign way, but in the world as it is, in the present day, such a powerfully negative term as abuse only serves to reinforce the illusory lines drawn by advocates of prohibition. The fact is - IMHO - there is no clear line.

Psychoactive drugs are used to alter one's perception of consciousness - in some cases, one's default state of mind, no matter what the root cause may be, is not a desirable state to either the unfortunate individual experiencing it, or human society at large. In some cases, this can be corrected with an exogenous chemical agent. Not perfectly, of course - but nothing is perfect in this reality, and "good enough" is, in many cases, good.

In other cases, one's default state of mind is a perfectly adequate one - but the mind in question seeks to explore alternative modes of consciousness. Human minds are curious and novelty seeking by nature, and the very substrate of consciousness itself is not exempt from our desire to explore. Again - exogenous chemical agents are one of many routes to achieving this goal.

In both cases, administration of a drug is an attempt to achieve a given objective. Drug use is rarely framed in these terms because the idea that an individual could set a goal in their mind that can only be achieved by taking a certain drug implies an association between drug use and achievement, and the pervasive cultural stigma against the idea that taking any mind-altering substance could possibly be any kind of achievement forbids the association of drug use with fulfilment of an objective, for this could be read in a positive light, and drugs are bad, mmkay?

An individual who finds it hard to exist within their own mind, for whom life is an endless toil of suffering - and, I will stress, it matters not whether or not an external observer would look at their life and be able to tell that they were suffering - who has had no luck with doctors, new hobbies, lifestyle changes, and is endlessly pursued by a seemingly irrational, unjustifiable feeling of dread, sadness, fear... who takes an illicitly acquired benzodiazepine and feels some momentary relief, and can pick themselves up the next morning to live another day... well, they are an abuser.

I will now try to dissect your thinking in more detail.

However, it would be nice since then the problem of distinguishing psychiatric medication from drug abuse would disappear.
Just to drill the point home - this is not, in and of itself, an important problem. If you can't tell whether something is abuse, then I find it very hard to see why it is worth even paying attention to. This is a problem only for those who continue to cling to the complete mess of a legal framework by which drugs are controlled - or not, as the case may be - and whom are engaging in endless mental gymnastics to find a distinction that does not exist.

I find that the best drug highs are the few and far between, with the more cognitively dynamic drugs - i.e psychedelics, dissociatives, cannabinoids and perhaps empathogens.
This is a purely subjective perception that you can only really be sure applies to you. Of course, many people for whom psychedelics are the most interesting class would agree with you, but the paranoid schizophrenic prone to violent psychoses when unmedicated, especially if they have committed a serious moral crime during one of these psychoses, while unmedicated - or, even worse, while "medicated" with a low dose of a substance from any of the classes you mentioned - would strongly disagree.

I suspect that it's wise to avoid any drug that mostly serves to linearly amplify perceived well-being one way or the other.
There is no such thing as a linear amplification of perceived well-being, because well being is a multifaceted psychological phenomenon. That said - I'll agree it's wise to avoid drugs that, I guess, make you happy without actually having any reason to be happy except that you have just taken the drug in question - IF your life is satisfactory otherwise, and you are capable of experiencing happiness without this drug, and are not, for example, close to committing suicide because of overwhelming, inescapable sadness.

I am skeptical toward daily prescribed benzos, stimulants, opioids, SSRI's etc.
Hmm... while the pharmaceutical industry is not exactly a paragon of moral virtue... it is also not an entirely unscientific, arbitrary entity. The fact that such prescriptions exist is a consequence of positive results from a vast quantity of rigorous research to treat psychological maladies, and they are effective. Are there problems with many of these approaches? Sure. Is the science entirely reliable, free of influence from capitalistic bias? Probably not. Nonetheless, there are a very large amount of individual substances in the classes you mentioned, each with their own nuanced differences, benefits, and negatives. You may be skeptical, many medical professionals who prescribe them, and scientists who've studied them at the behest of eye-bleedingly monied manufacturers may be skeptical - it doesn't mean they don't have any useful functions.

I find that the experiential cognitive benefits of psychedelics and dissociatives are what brain medicine is actually about.
Frankly - and I do not mean this rudely, but this is a prolific bias that exists within communities who favour psychedelic and dissociative drugs - subjective experience with any given drug does not give you any real insight into what "brain medicine is actually about". I will say I think that psychedelic research specifically probably is one of the most promising avenues into expanding our understanding of the nature of consciousness - but not at the exclusion of, for example, even the most basic dopaminergic stimulant.

To chronically overload a neural parameter fighting desensitization is a failure.
Many people who have had debilitatingly sub-optimal modes of consciousness but been essentially cured by one of the aforementioned basic stimulants, say, racemic amphetamine, or even an SSRI, or some dose of a benzodiazepine that they have taken successfully for years without significant decline and with sustained benefit - would strongly disagree with you. If you mean, it's a failure, as in, it's not a CURE, to the point that the individual in question would not need any substance anymore - well, maybe, but medical science is simply not at the point to achieve this yet. We are doing our best, as a species, with the tools available to us. Some of these tools are relatively "simple" drugs.

To produce a transformative experience from a single or a few relatively harmless drug administrations is a great success.
If there was a drug that could do this reliably, sure. Right now, there isn't one, although I can guess which class of substance you're thinking of. Psychedelic research is in it's infancy and the psychedelic experience is NOTORIOUSLY unreliable.

The main problem is emotional hang-ups affecting neural functioning,
No, the main problem is that on the spectrum of possible conscious experiences, some people are unfortunately saddled with extremely difficult ones. Emotional hang-ups may be a component of some of these, sure, but this is a symptom, not a primary factor. Emotions are secondary phenomena within the space of consciousness, thus it cannot be said that emotions are the "main" problem in any context. This is my intuition, in any case, there may be some extreme outlier scenarios where this is not entirely correct, but, the secondary nature of emotional phenomena upon the primary phenomenon of consciousness itself is a given.

You can work the funk out, ayahuasca style.
You sure about that? What about all the people who tried to do that and ended up with lasting psychological injuries? What about the ones who died? What about those who don't have access to ayahuasca? What about those who did everything right, were lucky enough to have a great experience... but it did not solve their psychological issues in the long term?

Work it out, and regain mental balance.
Ah yes, the irrefutably obvious solution to everything that, strangely, people just aren't doing. "Just work it out"... thanks man, I'll remember that next time I'm struggling with something. ;)
 
To me there is a pretty clear difference between drug use and medications. One is designed to make you feel better than normal, prescribed medications are designed to only make you feel normal, not above baseline. At least that is their designated use.

Psychedelics are somewhere in between for me and a lot more unpredictable. I became psychologically addicted to them at one point, I became addicted to their use for escapism from my problems which it ended in complete disaster and permanent neural damage with lasting problems years later.

Psychedelics have been both more constructive AND more deconstructive in my life, in my experience and my use of them, compared to the pills a doctor will give you. Or even other street drugs...

I support their use in psychiatry... but also am hesitant to fully endorse it. There is always a potential someone will be treated with them and end up loving it so much then end up abusing it. (just like any psychoactive medication)

I think we have a lot to learn about neurology before we start fully endorsing them for any such purpose, but I am very excited about their current progress in psychiatry in some countries even though I don't intend on ever using them for that purpose again.

I love psychedelics... but damn, they fucked my brain up permanently* after overusing them...

*I have seen a major return to normalcy after a few years, but never back to baseline. I believe this to be serotonergic brain damage, which is known to be permanent and lasts forever, according to a few papers I have read as well as other examples of people who abused serotonergic drugs and are still abnormal decades later (whom I know and talk to). Although, there were several more factors which played into this and it wasn't the drug alone. Alcoholism, various other drugs, chronic sleep deprivation, extreme stress, poor nutrition... misuse...... etc, etc, all of which cause neurological changes on their own... and then the tryptamines and lysergamides were the straw on the camel's back for me....

Isn't it so that the line is blurred when an addict needs his/her drug just to feel normal? I think this complicates things a lot, by offering a justification for daily drug use. Also, many people use drug combos that are a mix of recreational drugs, addiction maintenence drugs and psychiatric medications.
 
Well... I would not say it's an absurd concept, personally, at least not in the present day - I could envision a time in which it might be considered an absurd concept.

Firstly, though - the primary "problem" that you highlight, the distinction between "psychiatric drug use" and "drug abuse" is not one that I recognise. In fact, the very concept of drug abuse is, IMO, an absurd framing of the situations in which people are using more drugs than is good for them. Additionally - it is highly relative. For many people, drug abuse simply means using ANY drug that one is not prescribed by a medical professional. It can mean simply deviating slightly from the advice, or legally sanctioned dosage pattern, given by a medical professional. There might be a world in which the term could be used in a benign way, but in the world as it is, in the present day, such a powerfully negative term as abuse only serves to reinforce the illusory lines drawn by advocates of prohibition. The fact is - IMHO - there is no clear line.

Psychoactive drugs are used to alter one's perception of consciousness - in some cases, one's default state of mind, no matter what the root cause may be, is not a desirable state to either the unfortunate individual experiencing it, or human society at large. In some cases, this can be corrected with an exogenous chemical agent. Not perfectly, of course - but nothing is perfect in this reality, and "good enough" is, in many cases, good.

In other cases, one's default state of mind is a perfectly adequate one - but the mind in question seeks to explore alternative modes of consciousness. Human minds are curious and novelty seeking by nature, and the very substrate of consciousness itself is not exempt from our desire to explore. Again - exogenous chemical agents are one of many routes to achieving this goal.

In both cases, administration of a drug is an attempt to achieve a given objective. Drug use is rarely framed in these terms because the idea that an individual could set a goal in their mind that can only be achieved by taking a certain drug implies an association between drug use and achievement, and the pervasive cultural stigma against the idea that taking any mind-altering substance could possibly be any kind of achievement forbids the association of drug use with fulfilment of an objective, for this could be read in a positive light, and drugs are bad, mmkay?

An individual who finds it hard to exist within their own mind, for whom life is an endless toil of suffering - and, I will stress, it matters not whether or not an external observer would look at their life and be able to tell that they were suffering - who has had no luck with doctors, new hobbies, lifestyle changes, and is endlessly pursued by a seemingly irrational, unjustifiable feeling of dread, sadness, fear... who takes an illicitly acquired benzodiazepine and feels some momentary relief, and can pick themselves up the next morning to live another day... well, they are an abuser.

I will now try to dissect your thinking in more detail.


Just to drill the point home - this is not, in and of itself, an important problem. If you can't tell whether something is abuse, then I find it very hard to see why it is worth even paying attention to. This is a problem only for those who continue to cling to the complete mess of a legal framework by which drugs are controlled - or not, as the case may be - and whom are engaging in endless mental gymnastics to find a distinction that does not exist.


This is a purely subjective perception that you can only really be sure applies to you. Of course, many people for whom psychedelics are the most interesting class would agree with you, but the paranoid schizophrenic prone to violent psychoses when unmedicated, especially if they have committed a serious moral crime during one of these psychoses, while unmedicated - or, even worse, while "medicated" with a low dose of a substance from any of the classes you mentioned - would strongly disagree.


There is no such thing as a linear amplification of perceived well-being, because well being is a multifaceted psychological phenomenon. That said - I'll agree it's wise to avoid drugs that, I guess, make you happy without actually having any reason to be happy except that you have just taken the drug in question - IF your life is satisfactory otherwise, and you are capable of experiencing happiness without this drug, and are not, for example, close to committing suicide because of overwhelming, inescapable sadness.


Hmm... while the pharmaceutical industry is not exactly a paragon of moral virtue... it is also not an entirely unscientific, arbitrary entity. The fact that such prescriptions exist is a consequence of positive results from a vast quantity of rigorous research to treat psychological maladies, and they are effective. Are there problems with many of these approaches? Sure. Is the science entirely reliable, free of influence from capitalistic bias? Probably not. Nonetheless, there are a very large amount of individual substances in the classes you mentioned, each with their own nuanced differences, benefits, and negatives. You may be skeptical, many medical professionals who prescribe them, and scientists who've studied them at the behest of eye-bleedingly monied manufacturers may be skeptical - it doesn't mean they don't have any useful functions.


Frankly - and I do not mean this rudely, but this is a prolific bias that exists within communities who favour psychedelic and dissociative drugs - subjective experience with any given drug does not give you any real insight into what "brain medicine is actually about". I will say I think that psychedelic research specifically probably is one of the most promising avenues into expanding our understanding of the nature of consciousness - but not at the exclusion of, for example, even the most basic dopaminergic stimulant.


Many people who have had debilitatingly sub-optimal modes of consciousness but been essentially cured by one of the aforementioned basic stimulants, say, racemic amphetamine, or even an SSRI, or some dose of a benzodiazepine that they have taken successfully for years without significant decline and with sustained benefit - would strongly disagree with you. If you mean, it's a failure, as in, it's not a CURE, to the point that the individual in question would not need any substance anymore - well, maybe, but medical science is simply not at the point to achieve this yet. We are doing our best, as a species, with the tools available to us. Some of these tools are relatively "simple" drugs.


If there was a drug that could do this reliably, sure. Right now, there isn't one, although I can guess which class of substance you're thinking of. Psychedelic research is in it's infancy and the psychedelic experience is NOTORIOUSLY unreliable.


No, the main problem is that on the spectrum of possible conscious experiences, some people are unfortunately saddled with extremely difficult ones. Emotional hang-ups may be a component of some of these, sure, but this is a symptom, not a primary factor. Emotions are secondary phenomena within the space of consciousness, thus it cannot be said that emotions are the "main" problem in any context. This is my intuition, in any case, there may be some extreme outlier scenarios where this is not entirely correct, but, the secondary nature of emotional phenomena upon the primary phenomenon of consciousness itself is a given.


You sure about that? What about all the people who tried to do that and ended up with lasting psychological injuries? What about the ones who died? What about those who don't have access to ayahuasca? What about those who did everything right, were lucky enough to have a great experience... but it did not solve their psychological issues in the long term?


Ah yes, the irrefutably obvious solution to everything that, strangely, people just aren't doing. "Just work it out"... thanks man, I'll remember that next time I'm struggling with something. ;)

Here is a long reply basically picking apart every possible aspect of my post.

Do you think most standard psychiatric medication exists to successfully abate "endless toil and suffering"? I get your point in theory but in practice this is generally not the case. Generally people are liberally given antidepressants, stimulants, mood stabilizers, benzos and antipsychotics in the hopes that this will improve some diffuse condition that likely results from emotional distress, without any great success. So, you're pretending that these medications are given in cases of terrible suffering and do work to ameliorate that suffering. My impression is that they are given very liberally in cases of variable suffering of variable origins, and overall don't work well enough to motivate this frequency of use.

Allow me to rephrase my question, avoiding the absolutes which seem to have added confusion:

Remaining open to the possibility that chronic daily psychiatric medication could be good in some cases, do you agree or disagree that this kind of medical paradigm tends to be overrated and that we could probably benefit more from a paradigm of trauma-healing psychedelics and dissociatives, in the context of chemicals being applied to emotional problems? I have presented arguments for this idea. I'm not really interested in discussing asymptotes and absolutes. So, to reiterate: I concede to you that there may be cases where chronic daily psychiatric medication is a good and necessary idea, but i insist that this is far from the type case of modern psychiatry.

You seem to read a lot more into my post than i wrote there. I wish to kindly inform you that this kind of behavior does not work on me. For instance, you start telling me about ayahuasca purges gone wrong. Why? Have i claimed that purges never go wrong? No. Have i claimed that every problem can be solved in this way? No. What i claim is that in very many cases, people with emotional diseases could benefit from building a relationship to carefully spaced sessions with psychedelics and dissociatives as an alternative to daily neurochemical adjustments like a band-aid. Another thing you seem to make a big number of is my use of the word "addict". Do you really think i am in agreement with big pharma and mainstream psychiatry on addiction? No. I'm simply using the word to denote a problematic or unwanted extent of use, at the discretion of the user himself/herself. Having a word for taking too much drugs doesn't mean you're siding with repressive tyrants.

Another way to summarize this: Psychiatric illnesses are often about our thoughts and emotions, so it makes sense to use drugs that allow us to confront, heal and reprogram our thoughts and emotions. (We should primarily use means other than drugs - but as far as drugs go, first priority should be given to those that are relevant to emotional healing rather than those that are relevant to various other generally simpler aspects of neurology)

Your idea that emotions are generally downstream from chemical balance is unfounded, as you point out yourself.
 
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I wouldn't say I'm "pretending" anything, I used extreme examples to expose the problems with your bias, which, it appeared to me, was something that you yourself acknowledged, and invited challenge.

Is psychiatric medication overwhelmingly effective? Of course not. Are there likely to be better options? For sure. It's just that what exactly these better options are is not currently known, as in, extensively studied, reliably effective for a wide range of individuals with a wide range of psychological maladies. We'll get there - hopefully. Medical science is just not quite there yet.

I don't think I actually disagree with you to any significant degree, as far as the general sentiment which as I understand it is that many psychiatric drugs are misprescribed, overprescribed, often ineffective, moneyspinners for the pharmaceutical giants... Psychedelic drugs do offer other windows into the mind that are currently being explored, of course, have been explored for aeons if not always under the conceptual magnifying glass of the scientific method... I do think it's likely that the kind of neurological, neurochemical, psychological, whatever, changes that can be induced by the latter class have a far greater potential to be lasting, sustainable, and to give us new insight into the nature of mind that we all possess, and how to treat it when it appears to be malfunctioning.

So, yes, I would agree with you that humanity would benefit were psychiatric medicine to make better use of the vast pharmacopeia available to us as a species, and yes, I think psychedelics and dissociatives should probably be a big part of that arsenal.

What I felt the need to push back on was what I perceived as an overly simplistic view of a complex problem. You didn't say that ayahuasca purges always fix everyone's problems, sure, but my perception was that you give too much weight to the transformative experiences that can result from powerful psychedelic experiences, while being fairly dismissive of medicines that admittedly, are a psychological band aid, a lot of the time, but are also orders of magnitude less unpredictable.

I actually did not use the word "addict" once, I assume you meant "abuse", and I appreciate your apparent indignation at being put in the same boat as the prohibitionist mafia but this was not my intention. I focused on it only to illustrate that the words we use matter, and the language of prohibition is so pervasive and ingrained in our collective cultural consciousness that we've become blinded to the problems with this language, and habitually or unthinkingly say things that reinforce subconscious biases that serve the objectives of prohibitionists. "Drugs and alcohol" is the most obvious and easy to understand example - but there are other more subtle ones, and they should be called out when we see them.
 
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