Drugs and the perception of time

[Kdem]

Recently I switched from clonazepam to lorazepam.

Now, when I exercise time appears to move much more slowly, sometimes extremely slowly. For a day or so. There is still some aftereffect that lasts for days. There can be some killer insomnia as well.

Does anyone have similar experiences, and how would the withdrawal of clonazepam do this ? I have never experienced this after stopping a different benzodiazepine.

 

[PsychedelicWizard]

Many drugs do this. I'd say cannabis is the most notorious for it, amphetamines really tend to speed it up but can massively slow it done in high doses, but it is virtually impossible to really record this, as perception itself cannot even be easily verified, let alone perception of time, which is the least understood concept of all on this planet.

Cannabis has an interesting thing in that it makes one lose track of time entirely. Three hours might feel like thirty minutes, and there's no sense of appropriate time for various activities, like brushing your teeth taking an hour versus a few minutes, doesn't even seem unusual to someone who is really quite stoned. Amphetamines make time seem to pass a lot faster, although they don't seem to alter the concept of time allocation, which is different.

So some drugs will slow it down or speed it up, others will change the allocation of time as a concept to various activities, and some of them will lead to complete loss of time-based memory (benzos and alcohol blackouts in high doses), where one can black out and wake up hours or days earlier with no memory, it is a very strange feeling.

It gets even more bizarre if you mix and match drugs. Someone who goes on a meth bender for a few days, then blacks out on benzos and wakes up to smoke some weed will have a really messed up feeling of time, especially if one stays inside on a computer the whole time. It is a really surreal experience as your perception of current time, memory of past time, and allocation of time are all altered, which leads to a fundamental shift in consciousness.

It might be interesting to realize that time itself is an illusion, recorded by observing matter, although perception is based in both matter and energy, and drugs alter matter, but drug use leads to altered conscious energy, and observing time with these variables altered in different ways will change the result.

 

[IbizaJoe]

When it comes to "time slowing down" -effect, LSD has been the most potent drug to achieve this effect. I totally lose perception of time and simple 10-12hour trip can feel like days in it's duration. This effect can be substantially maximized by smoking copious amounts of Cannabis during the LSD trip, but tends to make the effects of LSD much less enjoyable and less "vivid" for me. It literally felt like "stealing time" when I reflect on that experience.

Then again, high doses of LSD also caused "auditory hallucinations" when all music and voices sounded as if they were played from a reversed tape. This effect has puzzled me since I literally perceived some random music on radio played backwards. Then again, I had been awake for +20 hours and snorted some amphetamine before dropping the acid.

 

[Lazaraus45]

DMT is another one notorious for slowing down time, according to some anecdotal reports, 20 minutes can feel like weeks, unfortunately as Psychadelic Wizard said there's no objective way to measure perception of time, I imagine withdrawal from clonazepam could go either way, you'd be less sedated which could make time feel as though it's going faster, although you might also feel incredibly rough and anxious and usually negative experiences seem to feel longer

 

[Kdem]

Would anticonvulsants like carbamazepine counteract this effects from the withdrawal from clonazepam ?

 

[Epsilon Alpha]

So I've seen a couple articles on what effects the subjective perception of time. There's quite a bit of biology on the perception of time, wikipedia has an article here.

This paper shows that D2 activation in the pFC is related to a slower perception of time.

Pharmacological experiments in both animal and man show that the estimation of time is affected by dopamine [1]. Specifically, the duration of time intervals is underestimated if D2 dopamine receptors are inactivated, while other dopamine receptors such as D1 have no such effect [2]. The mechanism for this phenomenon and its receptor specificity is unknown. To provide a possible explanation, we use a biophysical cortical model of time perception, and incorporate the currently known effects of D2 modulation on cellular and synaptic properties. The model relates time estimating to the slow increasing of firing rates [3] which is observed in cortical areas such as the prefrontal cortex [4]: If firing rates increase monotonically over the range of several seconds, the rate at any instant in time provides a code for the time elapsed since the start of the increase. We incorporate the effects of D2 in the prefrontal cortex, namely a decrease in both NMDA and GABA peak conductances [5]. This modulation turns out to affect the slope of the rate in such a way that increasing D2 activation yields a steeper increase, and vice versa. Thus, blocking D2 receptors indeed yields a bias towards slowing the internal clock (Fig. 1). Furthermore, we discuss the effects of the D1 dopamine receptor and its missing influence on clock speed.

 

[Epsilon Alpha]

Recently I switched from clonazepam to lorazepam.

Now, when I exercise time appears to move much more slowly, sometimes extremely slowly. For a day or so. There is still some aftereffect that lasts for days. There can be some killer insomnia as well.

Does anyone have similar experiences, and how would the withdrawal of clonazepam do this ? I have never experienced this after stopping a different benzodiazepine.

The paper I posted earlier links increased rates of neurons firing to a slower perception of time, I'd hazard a guess that if you have less net inhibition with your new meds you may have a faster perception of time due to increased firing.

 

[serotonin2A]

...unfortunately as Psychadelic Wizard said there's no objective way to measure perception of time...

It is true that there isn't a device that you can hook someone up to in order to directly quantify their internal "clock speed". But a variety of experimental methods have been devised to assess the perception of time in humans. Some of the methods suffer from confounds, but in general it is possible to measure the subjective experience of time. For example, you can have subjects estimate how long an interval is, have them to try to reproduce a standard duration from memory, ask them to reproduce an interval immediately after it is presented to them, or have them compare two intervals and assess whether the durations are identical or different.

 

[Epsilon Alpha]

It is true that there isn't a device that you can hook someone up to in order to directly quantify their internal "clock speed". But a variety of experimental methods have been devised to assess the perception of time in humans. Some of the methods suffer from confounds, but in general it is possible to measure the subjective experience of time. For example, you can have subjects estimate how long an interval is, have them to try to reproduce a standard duration from memory, ask them to reproduce an interval immediately after it is presented to them, or have them compare two intervals and assess whether the durations are identical or different.

We have pretty good proxies for brain activity and time perception
There's a very neat diagram on page 5 of this one that shows which areas are correlated with various effects on time perception

Its kind of unsettling how so many things that are vital to consciousness are built off of various other more basic functions

Kdem, what doses were/are you on for the benzos?

 

[dopemaster]

You did just switch from a long acting benzo to a very short acting one.

Clonazepam lasts a long time and shit Ativan lasts like 30 minutes to an hour. Sorry I typed the brand names.

That would fuck my sleep schedule up bad.

 

[Nom de Plume]

In my experience, all GABAergics, in doses worth taking, noticeably slow time perception. In point of fact, it's one of the reasons I misuse 'em, and why I'm drunk from liquour and high off clonazepam this very moment; for when life slows down, I can both better appreciate it and anticipate it.

 

[dopemaster]

Shit I wish life would slow down.

Every day you get older the day goes faster.

But seriously I have a rx for 6mgs of clonazepam and well one day I ended up in the hospital and I had not had any clonazepam for almost 24 hours. That is a high dose. The doctor gave orders to give me ativan and it has a half life of maybe an hour. The nurses where bringing me 2 ativan an hour that night and I almost died. By the time another doctor was on shift I was severely dehrydrated and unable to get out of bed.

So yes I can tell you switching from clonazepam to lorazepam will fuck your day up. In your case its just insomnia. Welcome to the club, its called everyone.

But still if you were good on clonazepam I would go back to the doctor and switch back. A short acting benzo like lorazepam/ativan is used for acute panic attacks and mri/ct scans. IMHO it sucks balls. Its half life is an hour and clonazepam has a half life over a day but lasts about 4-5 hours as apposed to 30-60 minutes.

Why do I give a fuck about benzos so much? Because I know how the are rx'd and more importantly mis-prescribed. So you got a raw deal on the medication switch. If you need something for acute panic attacks I would suggest xanax but even in my case I chose clonazepam.

Doctors will make some stupid ass choices regarding other people's health and sometimes you got to do your own homework. If a medication doesn't work out for me I go right back and tell them.

So really whatever is going on is between you and your doctor. So sort it with your doctor and there is a good chance if you say nothing it won't get sorted. Of course be polite as fuck and just say what is going on.

 

[Kdem]

We have pretty good proxies for brain activity and time perception
There's a very neat diagram on page 5 of this one that shows which areas are correlated with various effects on time perception

Its kind of unsettling how so many things that are vital to consciousness are built off of various other more basic functions

Kdem, what doses were/are you on for the benzos?

Clonazepam 2 mg and lorazepam 4 mg. A day.

 

[Kdem]

You did just switch from a long acting benzo to a very short acting one.

Clonazepam lasts a long time and shit Ativan lasts like 30 minutes to an hour. Sorry I typed the brand names.

That would fuck my sleep schedule up bad.

I am suprised. Do you have a very high benzo tolerance ?
Lorazepam used to act 12 hours, now it's less.

Sometimes I can feel time 'race' in the first hour after taking lorazepam. Exercise related ?

Of course there is a difference between lorazepam oral and IV.

 

[Kdem]

2 mg lorazepam is not nearly enough to cover for 6 mg clonazepam, which is equivalent to 12 mg to 24 mg lorazepam, possibly 30 mg ! Differences aside.

The switch to lorazepam did indeed fuck up my life. Not in the beginning, for some reason it used to last longer. But it also used to be sedating, have amnestic properties, hypnotic properties. Which are all gone now. I stayed on it too long. Not I'm looking for something else. Just tapering off would be good but I think I might be having issues (problematic reactions) with diazepam. I never tried a full taper though. Clonazepam is hard to taper, just the way I react to the drug.

 

[Epsilon Alpha]

Clonazepam 2 mg and lorazepam 4 mg. A day.

Hmmm, well there goes the straight assumption that you have less net inhibition assuming these doses. Using this quick conversion chart you technically should have roughly the same level of inhibition with the benzodiazapines. You mention at one point using 6mg clonzepam in another post, so if that is the case the theory checks out, especially given the insomnia and symptoms relatively indicative of mild benzodiazapine withdrawal.

If 2mg was what you were on after a long and careful taper, then that makes me think perhaps it may be related to GABA-A subunit selectivity though I don't know any specifics on that. Anticonvulsants in theory may help with this, however, I have my doubts about using it clinically as you'd be juggling several drugs to make up for the side effects and eventually need to taper off again unless you wanted to be on anticonvulsants for life. Definitely ask your doctor about this at your next appointment even if just to keep them informed. If there is one thing I learned in psych block its that we can't help if we don't know.

Out of curiosity have you ever tried pregabalin or gabapentin?

 

[Kdem]

Hmmm, well there goes the straight assumption that you have less net inhibition assuming these doses. Using this quick conversion chart you technically should have roughly the same level of inhibition with the benzodiazapines. You mention at one point using 6mg clonzepam in another post, so if that is the case the theory checks out, especially given the insomnia and symptoms relatively indicative of mild benzodiazapine withdrawal.

If 2mg was what you were on after a long and careful taper, then that makes me think perhaps it may be related to GABA-A subunit selectivity though I don't know any specifics on that. Anticonvulsants in theory may help with this, however, I have my doubts about using it clinically as you'd be juggling several drugs to make up for the side effects and eventually need to taper off again unless you wanted to be on anticonvulsants for life. Definitely ask your doctor about this at your next appointment even if just to keep them informed. If there is one thing I learned in psych block its that we can't help if we don't know.

Out of curiosity have you ever tried pregabalin or gabapentin?

The person using 6 mg is someone else !

About the net inhibition: they still are different drugs. Clonazepam has a more even effect during the day, lorazepam has a short peak, followed by a strong effect of about 4 hours.
Recently, when I took lorazepam time was flying for about one hour after I took the drug. But the passage of time throughout the day is more normal on clonazepam. Lorazepam tends to make time seem to move slow.
(peaks and valleys?)

Lorazepam really is a different drug, it had hypnotic and sedating properties it holds no longer. Maybe clonazepam is sedating, but in a different way.
I'll talk to the doc but he really doesn't have a clue about these matters, sadly.

No experience with gabapentin or Lyrica, a doc I talked to didn't like it.

Out of curiousity, how would diazepam or tranxene compare to lorazepam or clonazepam ?

 

[Epsilon Alpha]

The person using 6 mg is someone else !

About the net inhibition: they still are different drugs. Clonazepam has a more even effect during the day, lorazepam has a short peak, followed by a strong effect of about 4 hours.
Recently, when I took lorazepam time was flying for about one hour after I took the drug. But the passage of time throughout the day is more normal on clonazepam. Lorazepam tends to make time seem to move slow.
(peaks and valleys?)

Lorazepam really is a different drug, it had hypnotic and sedating properties it holds no longer. Maybe clonazepam is sedating, but in a different way.
I'll talk to the doc but he really doesn't have a clue about these matters, sadly.

No experience with gabapentin or Lyrica, a doc I talked to didn't like it.

Out of curiousity, how would diazepam or tranxene compare to lorazepam or clonazepam ?

So I've been doing some digging and as no clear cut data exists or is accessible to me I've got two main theories:

1) You undergo short term very mild benzo withdrawal on lorazepam causing issues with your colour vision and time perception, a trial of another benzo may tell us more depending on your reaction compared to its pharmacokinetics
2) Its something to do with specific binding affinities of each drug which have not been reported in the literature I've seen. The best support I have for this is unfortunately just the opinion of my old pharmacology professor.


Could you give an extensive write up of the differences you feel between the two drugs?

 

[Kdem]

I don´t know about extensive, but I´ll try ...

Lorazepam at first: more sedating, hypnotic properties, amnestic properties, lasting about 12 hours, stimulating appetite. Later: sedation, hypnotic properties, amnestic properties mostly gone, appetite plus or minus.

Color perception is hard to tell, colors may seem brighter in some withdrawal state, or at higher doses, hard to tell. Must be related to prior clonazepam use. I suspect that the cholinergic system is involved. Serotonin ?

Clonazepam: generally more stimulating, longer lasting, colors are normal if the dose is correct. In many ways a more neutral drug, it feels less like a ´benzo´.


I can exercise fine on clonazepam. It feels like fine, anyway. But in any withdrawal state or any other drug I´ve tried, there are issues after doing more than mild exercise. Time perception, killer insomnia that even a hypnotic won´t touch, muscle rigidity, cognitive issues.
I have little experience with anxiolytic benzos.

There is some theory out there about conazepam´s unique effect on the thalamic reticular nucleus. I wouldn´t be surprised if that explained a lot. But why clonazepam affects that area and lorazepam does not ?

I´ve read the theory about ´benzos affinity to the GABA(A) receptors´, with a reference to a book (ingentaconnect ... but I´m not going to buy it). The binding affinity of lorazepam and clonazepam should be about the same, so I don´t understand why the drugs are so different. I wonder if actual numbers would tell more.

Clonazepam used to last a day, in the beginning lorazepam used to last about 12 hours.

 

[Epsilon Alpha]

I've never heard of this unique effect on the thalamic reticular nucleus, nor could I find anything with a quick search. Got any more info on it?
Benzo's tend to have slight subtype specificity and are actually a rather "privileged structrue" meaning small tweaks can completely change what it binds to (eg: tryptamine backbones in wildly unrelated drugs).

As for the hunger, I think I may have finally found a mechanism! So both lorazepam and clonazepam are 1,4 benzodiazapines, which have been shown to be CCK receptor antagonists (agonism of CCK receptors is anorexic). Now I'm no expert in structural activity relationships, but lorazepam seems to be a much closer fit to the antagonists detailed in this paper as it lacks that nitro group and has the added hydroxyl group at its 3 position. Now while no direct info exists on lorazepam or clonazepam binding to the receptor as best I can tell, this may explain some of the differences noted by you.

You might find more by searching if CCK receptors have any other CNS effects as they're widely expressed, but I don't have time to spend researching with finals coming up.

Edit: here's some more of the papers I looked at

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2528863/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8455720/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3365725/