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Dopamine Neurone Degeneration or Dopamine Receptor Downregulation

TheHedonist99

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On the instance of mild anhedonia, are there any distinguishing factors between a lack of dopamine yet sensitive dopamine receptors and a surplus of dopamine but desensitized receptors? In this instance, it wouldn't be drug induced. I ask as I am considering taking L-DOPA to raise dopamine levels on the presumption that I am lacking in dopamine, but it could simply be that my dopamine levels are fine, just that my dopamine receptors are desensitized (in which case L-DOPA would only downregulate the receptors even more). Cheers
 
Is there adequate proof of anhedonia being directly related to either low dopamine or downregulated DA receptors? Seems much more complex than that and my brief searches showed some correlation but nothing definitive.
 
i think it would be better if you approached anhedonia from another way OP, psychological instead of neurochemical...
 
We can't even say for sure dopamine leads to pleasure, I think opioid recptors are much more involved.

Although to answear your question, I dont see much difference between the two when it comes to psychological states, dopamine desensitization is very close to dopamine down regulation.
 
We can't even say for sure dopamine leads to pleasure, I think opioid recptors are much more involved.

Although to answear your question, I dont see much difference between the two when it comes to psychological states, dopamine desensitization is very close to dopamine down regulation.

Sorry I should have made it clearer - essentially I was wondering if I had low dopamine levels or low dopamine receptor densities, though I think it's near impossible to tell the difference
 
L dopa is not a good idea, a MAOB inhibitior makes much more sense, although I personally wouldn't miss with either
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I have the feeling that there are differences between receptor desensitization and hypodopaminergic state... this is a hard to grasp topic though. And of course it's true what former posters have said, that anhedonia can result from hypodopaminergia (see neuroleptics) but also from a bunch of other mechanisms. It's generally more a sign of that your mind is out of equilibrium. There are states of anhedonia where psychostimulants will just 'wire' one and feel very cold, mechanic, etc. but also others where it's really a matter of DA.. think it's also much a matter of different brain regions.

You'll never be really out of dopamine, or you couldn't move your muscles at all -> parkinson's.

Why do you think that your condition is related to low dopamine? Can you explain this a bit more? Previous drug experiences, medications, etc.

NMDA antagonists are good at 'restarting' the brain somewhat, see the research on ketamine for treatment resistant depression. But this is very experimental and by no way something that has to work always.
 
I have the feeling that there are differences between receptor desensitization and hypodopaminergic state... this is a hard to grasp topic though. And of course it's true what former posters have said, that anhedonia can result from hypodopaminergia (see neuroleptics) but also from a bunch of other mechanisms. It's generally more a sign of that your mind is out of equilibrium. There are states of anhedonia where psychostimulants will just 'wire' one and feel very cold, mechanic, etc. but also others where it's really a matter of DA.. think it's also much a matter of different brain regions.

You'll never be really out of dopamine, or you couldn't move your muscles at all -> parkinson's.

Why do you think that your condition is related to low dopamine? Can you explain this a bit more? Previous drug experiences, medications, etc.

NMDA antagonists are good at 'restarting' the brain somewhat, see the research on ketamine for treatment resistant depression. But this is very experimental and by no way something that has to work always.

I think could have low dopamine, as I have the genes for it (members of family with Parkinson's) and also, as the Parkinson's involves low dopamine, receptors are more hypersensitive, which may explain how I get HUGE highs from weed for some reason (two puffs and I'm spinning). Also, my orgasms are pretty weak, which may be as I have little dopamine to release.
 
If you're still getting high off of CB1 activation you might take that as a sign you have dopamine in your vesicles, could localize whether dopamine is responsible or not for the high with a dopamine antagonist (should also make your anhedonia much worse should it be lack of dopamine related).

This might sound retarded but play along.. theoretically you could try to tell the difference between receptor problems and lack of dopamine problems with pre-synaptic vs. post synaptic binding right?? Pre synaptic binding would depend on having dopamine in the vesicles to fire where as post synaptic binding the dopamine cell could fire regardless of dopamine in vesicles? The problem with this would lie in the post synaptic binding not having much effect with the action potential connecting to the cells on down the line because those cells either wouldn't have dopamine in vesicles or the post synaptic drug wouldn't have bound there.. Am I retarded?

If you are feeling spendy there is the DAT scan... Will likely become cheaper with time. It could help you pin down whether you are having lack of synapse problems in the pre-frontal cortex etc. or dopamine producing cell body problems/dopamine projection problems. Would love to know if there was really a way to figure out what was going on with the receptor down regulation..

COMT is important as well, MAOB is something else to consider but inhibitors of COMT are a mainstay of Parkinsons treatment, "In the brain, COMT-dependent dopamine degradation is of particular importance in brain regions with low expression of the presynaptic dopamine transporter (DAT), such as the prefrontal cortex. This process is supposed to take place in postsynaptic neurons, as, in general, COMT is located intracellularly in the central nervous system"

I think if there is a significant shortage of dopamine coming from the substantia nigra itself this could be revealed with some temporary drug induced Parkinsons (insert neuroleptic here) but Parkinsons is similar to liver failure in the sense that it only really becomes apparent clinically once you are almost there (many of the cell bodies in the SN are gone). Some symptoms can precede others by many years, REM sleep disorders are typically the first and can appear more than a decade before onset of clinical Parkinsons, loss of smell is another one.

But dopamine is not the only matter, dopamine can fire through heterodimers and through 5-HT2A for example, so serotonin is something else to look into. 2A is implicated all over the place in depression, whether or not you want to use the word depression or anhedonia could change views on things regarding whether it's lack of dopamine or too much 2A etc. Theoretically if someone's 2A is firing off a lot of dopamine this could lead to dopamine receptor down regulation in those associated cells. Then a psychostimulant that releases dopamine through a 5-HT2 pathway may not have as much dopamine effect because those would be the specific dopamine receptors that are down regulated. And then in that case a more global dopamine increase would work better (to reach beyond the cells that are down regulated from 5-HT2 interactions). Anhedonia can be from lack of many things and too much of some things me thinks.

There is of course the psychological side of things, if you're interested in that I recommend mindfulness meditation which if you develop Parkinsons down the road will be useful anyways. Vipassana/meditating on the breath is wonderful. It will help your sleep which can improve mood regardless.

Family history wise, was there anything environmental (pesticides in particular) that your fam was exposed to that could explain the Parkinsons or has it been isolated to genetics? Much neurodegenerative disease other than Parkinsons?
Sorry for wall of text :p
 
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A genetic predisposition to develop Parkinsons later in life does not imply that you have "low dopamine levels". Parkinsons involves way more than just loss of DA activity in the s. nigra., and it is unlikely you have unnoticed early-onset Parkinsons with exclusively mental and no motor symptoms.

highs from weed for some reason (two puffs and I'm spinning). Also, my orgasms are pretty weak, which may be as I have little dopamine to release.

Neither of these are really indicative of any sort of problem. Certainly not "low dopamine levels". Most cannabis these days is actually incredibly high in THC (15%+ is seen all the time, tops out at almost 30% THC w/w...) and unless you have an established tolerance (i.e. unless you are a chronic pothead) one or two hits is probably more than enough to get the average individual high these days. With "high grade", maybe even too high.

If you are whackin it to porno and not having a , shall we say, immersive stimulatory experience lasting more than 20 minutes then of course you are going to have underwhelming orgasms, there is really no such thing as a free lunch, you gotta work for it .... it could also be related to frequency of orgasm, if you try to abstain for sexual activity for 3-7 days and see how it works? Also, there are all sorts of techniques one can apply to delay the act of orgasm itself, which usually results in intesification of the experience, so that's also worth checking out too.

Mild ahedonia is also not indicative of DA dysfuction as much as it is a sign you need to find more entertaining usage of your time :) I would save your money and not buy too much L-DOPA, go buy a romantic meal for a date or something instead, see what that does.

You should also keep in mind there are multiple "reward/happiness" chemicals involved in the human body... dopamine is only really for helping adjust the brain's prediction of "unexpected" rewards. - like if you unexpectedly found $20 on the street. There are other chemicals that regulate other types of pleasure... cannabinoids and endorphins/opioids have been shown to be released in response to excercise and physical activity, and there is actually some evidence phenethylamine is released in response to excercise too (acting as TAAR1 agonist and also a NDRA, like amphetamine.)
 
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Thanks sekio, advice taken. I'm not a chronic pothead at all, I don't smoke too often. As for your advice about porn, I have to say you were entirely right - whacking without porn is soooooo much better than with porn (I tried last night incidentally). However I do think I have a dopamine problem. For example, if I were to win a million pounds unexpectedly, I wouldn't be happy, I would just feel like "Yeah, this is good". Any ideas as to how to solve this (and I'm being serious, I wouldn't even smile after winning a million dollars suddenly)?
 
That and the fact that I have virtually no motivation to do things, including basic hygiene (kinda disgusting, but even if I stink like shit, I don't have the urge to shower like most would. I force myself to do it).
 
I agree with sekio, I think regular cardio (4 times a week for 20-30 minutes) has incredible benefits for the brain if you're convinced it's not a psychological thing.. Might have a hard time getting the will power up to do it (and if it's hard for you that's a sign that you need it) but anyways, dopamine is not the only source of motivation/pleasure I believe, you can help your brain with aerobic exercise but what if it's psychological 0.0
 
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That and the fact that I have virtually no motivation to do things, including basic hygiene (kinda disgusting, but even if I stink like shit, I don't have the urge to shower like most would. I force myself to do it).

This sounds like a way to get depressed and if depression was all about boosting serotonin or dopamine levels, the problem of depression would have been solved long time ago. Aside from buprenorphine and ketamine there is really no revolutionary treatment available, however, having experienced depression on and off for my whole life I've realized there is no chemical, already known or yet to be synthesized or discovered, that could magically cure depression unless it's really a matter of a biochemical problem. Otherwise depression and anxiety seem to always involve the state of your social interactions with people in some way, no drug can substitute for that, you need people. Most of processes going on in your body you can't really control, at least directly, but there is a great potential in self-development/self-actualization by which you can fix your mood/existential problems without using any drugs, drugs actually disturb self-actualization with some exceptions but drugs are not necessary at all and if they can induce states of mind that facilitate self-actualization, it doesn't seem to be universal for everyone. I've been through hell thanks to my chemical quest for inner peace, it was a lot of pain, but honestly speaking no physical pain can compare to lonely restless "soul" or however you want to call it.
 
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