Does MDMA have the hard comedown at lower doses?

[mdaniel80]

I've only taken MDMA once in my 20s. No idea how much but the comedown about 4 hours after taking it came on quick and was severe. Instant suicidal depression. I never touched it again but now in my 40s Ive taken an interest. The emerging studies and attitude toward therapeutic psychedelics (and MDMA) has got my attention. SO, is there always a massive comedown / mood drop when it wears off? Is it possible I took a high amount? It may have been cut too as that was the 90s and we werent testing shit.

Also, is it accurate that 10mg is the threshold for effects? https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/MDMA

 

[G_Chem]

I’ve got quite the history with MDMA. I’m one of only a few people I know IRL or online that has been at it as long as I have. Usually people burn out fairly early on from too large of doses.

MDMA has a fairly narrow window of safe dosing (as do most empathogens) but you get it right and it’s magic with very little negative in return.

10mg is threshold but not enjoyable in the slightest. MDMA has a certain dosage threshold for the euphoric/empathy inducing effects to emerge. 70-80mg is about as low as you want to go. I’d say 80mg of pure MDMA gives a good taste of what it has to offer while also having minimal side effects. I never dose anyone with less than 100, and usually 120. 120mg is the magic dosage it seems for most people, but there are anomalies in both directions. The most I’ve seen someone need is 180mg at once.

I don’t really get comedowns if I follow some basic rules that I’ve learned over the years. Here’s a thread on rules to not “lose the magic” which refers to a permanent MDMA tolerance (likely due to neurotoxicity) but can also apply equally to helping reduce comedowns.

https://bluelight.org/xf/threads/gc’s-guide-to-not-losing-the-magic.910721/

For me I’m mid 30’s, the next day is a chill wash out period where I’m tired and lazy but overall still somewhat content. Perfect for watching movies and smoking bud. After 2-3 days I’m usually able to return to work and life like nothing happened.

-GC

 

[mdaniel80]

You may as well not do it. At low doses, MDMA's serotonergic effect is far weaker - the primary effects of MDMA only occur past a certain threshold so 50 mg will feel more like a bit of coke or speed than a decent dose of MDMA.

lol are you trying to sell MDMA to staff members in a harm reduction forum? Cmon bro

 

[mdaniel80]

I’ve got quite the history with MDMA. I’m one of only a few people I know IRL or online that has been at it as long as I have. Usually people burn out fairly early on from too large of doses.

MDMA has a fairly narrow window of safe dosing (as do most empathogens) but you get it right and it’s magic with very little negative in return.

10mg is threshold but not enjoyable in the slightest. MDMA has a certain dosage threshold for the euphoric/empathy inducing effects to emerge. 70-80mg is about as low as you want to go. I’d say 80mg of pure MDMA gives a good taste of what it has to offer while also having minimal side effects. I never dose anyone with less than 100, and usually 120. 120mg is the magic dosage it seems for most people, but there are anomalies in both directions. The most I’ve seen someone need is 180mg at once.

I don’t really get comedowns if I follow some basic rules that I’ve learned over the years. Here’s a thread on rules to not “lose the magic” which refers to a permanent MDMA tolerance (likely due to neurotoxicity) but can also apply equally to helping reduce comedowns.

https://bluelight.org/xf/threads/gc’s-guide-to-not-losing-the-magic.910721/

For me I’m mid 30’s, the next day is a chill wash out period where I’m tired and lazy but overall still somewhat content. Perfect for watching movies and smoking bud. After 2-3 days I’m usually able to return to work and life like nothing happened.

-GC

thanks. ROA - oral?

 

[plumbus-nine]

I recently did a low dosage of 5-MAPB or 6-APB (forgot which one), was eyeballed but I'd guess around 40mg's (insufflated), and while it was a bit subtle, it had a definitely serotonergic empathogenic quality to it and was very enjoyable. No comedown, the effects just subsided after some hours. I would say the comedown off empathogens is linear to the dosage.

Read somewhere on the board here that MDMA suppresses an enzyme which is required to replenish serotonin, and this will contribute to the hangover. As the x-APBs are structurally very similar to MDMA, I don't know whether they share this activity or not.

 

[mdaniel80]

I recently did a low dosage of 5-MAPB or 6-APB (forgot which one), was eyeballed but I'd guess around 40mg's (insufflated), and while it was a bit subtle, it had a definitely serotonergic empathogenic quality to it and was very enjoyable. No comedown, the effects just subsided after some hours. I would say the comedown off empathogens is linear to the dosage.

Read somewhere on the board here that MDMA suppresses an enzyme which is required to replenish serotonin, and this will contribute to the hangover. As the x-APBs are structurally very similar to MDMA, I don't know whether they share this activity or not.

Hmm. WHich enzyme and can it be substituted? Maybe microdosing psilocybin day after since it mimics serotonin rather than simply agonizes it.

 

[plumbus-nine]

Hmm. WHich enzyme and can it be substituted? Maybe microdosing psilocybin day after since it mimics serotonin rather than simply agonizes it.

Found the thread where it's mentioned. The name is 5-hydroxytryptophan decarboxylase. (So will, if I understand it right, even supplementing with 5-htp not help)

Idk about psilocybin, it doesn't agonize all serotonin receptors but is afaik pretty specific to 5ht2a.

 

[mdaniel80]

Found the thread where it's mentioned. The name is 5-hydroxytryptophan decarboxylase. (So, if I undertand it right, will even supplementing with 5-htp not help)

Idk about psilocybin, it doesn't agonize all serotonin receptors but is afaik pretty specific to 5ht2a.

Ya simply agonizing 5ht(r) wouldnt work if there was an enzyme blocking or antagonizing them. I guess the psilo may work depending on the specific 5ht(r) agonized by MDMA and blocked by the enzyme. This is a rabbithole, here I go (love it).....

 

[maoriwarrior]

Almost 20 years of once weekly MDMA crystal use here, & it's very rare that I get a comedown at all ( except the odd time where I've gone a bit OTT or had too much booze) Also, I consider my general mental health to be very good.

Perhaps some of the reasons why I don't suffer with a comedown- I test my gear, I don't usually drink more than 2 or 3 alcoholic drinks, I am consistent with my dose at 150mg, I don't redose, I don't use any other drugs apart from the occasional spliff, I keep myself adequately hydrated, and I exercise regularly.

 

[plumbus-nine]

Ya simply agonizing 5ht(r) wouldnt work if there was an enzyme blocking or antagonizing them. I guess the psilo may work depending on the specific 5ht(r) agonized by MDMA and blocked by the enzyme. This is a rabbithole, here I go (love it).....

Agonizing 5ht receptors would substitute for serotonin I imagine but you'd need an agonist which hits all receptors like serotonin does instead of psilocybin which is selective for 5ht2a.

 

[G_Chem]

thanks. ROA - oral?

Yup. Reason being, some of the MDMA metabolizes to MDA in the body which gives the full effect. Many people may be saying to themselves “well I don’t like MDA.” Thing is a majority of the MDA produced metabolically is the S-isomer, which when we look at PIHKAL and elsewhere we see it’s like a more intense version of MDMA that lasts a little shorter.


Also I don’t know if I mention it in the thread I link, but I’ve found low/moderate doses of psychedelics help negate any negativity as well. This works even after the fact. Say I’m 2-3 days out and for some reason still don’t feel right, I’ll do a small bump of K and a small hit of DMT.

The K brings to maturity neurons already present (hence its ultra quick antidepressant effect) but isn’t great for neurogenesis. DMT induces the neurogenesis and has a modulators effect on serotonin that’s out of my pay grade to elaborate on.


I’m actually planning my “NYE” roll right now. It’s never actually on NYE cuz I’m getting old I guess lol, but probably around Christmas time. Typically this is the only at home roll I do all year so I try to really make it unique.

-GC

 

[Jabberwocky]

I've only taken MDMA once in my 20s. No idea how much but the comedown about 4 hours after taking it came on quick and was severe. Instant suicidal depression. I never touched it again but now in my 40s Ive taken an interest. The emerging studies and attitude toward therapeutic psychedelics (and MDMA) has got my attention. SO, is there always a massive comedown / mood drop when it wears off? Is it possible I took a high amount? It may have been cut too as that was the 90s and we werent testing shit.

Also, is it accurate that 10mg is the threshold for effects? https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/MDMA

1. If you had to come down 4 hours after taking MDMA, it probably wasn't MDMA.

I have probably taken 400 or 500 pills, and most of that was between 1998 and 2001.

Back when it was all MDMA, I never rolled less than 6 hours and it was basically pure wafer or baby aspirin size pills. It wasn't a lot of crap going around.

I also never had a crash unless I took three or four pills in one night and didn't hydrate and didn't take vitamin c beforehand and all that other stuff.

2. I've never lost the magic. When I have ascertained that it's been pure, MDMA it has always come through.

Same subjective effects since 1998 to just a short while ago.

Accordingly I have taken Molly or pills that somebody else had taken and it was safe (they didn't get sick and they didn't die, lol) but it wasn't ecstasy it wasn't MDMA. It was a reasonably close analog but it wasn't.

3. Your experience with a horrible anxiety ridden crash/suicidal ideation after 4 hours is not normal at all. It could be something specific to you, but that's not what happens normally. I think your theory that it was cut with something or was not MDMA is probably a valid theory.

4. If you took a really huge dose and by that I mean two or three pills then yeah that crash could happen but you would not have done at 4 hours. You would have been rolling until 8 or 10 hours with three pills.

5. 10 mg does nothing except taste shitty while you're holding in your mouth. They say 2 mg of Valium is the threshold dose yeah right. The real threshold dose to feel anything from MDMA. I put around 35 mg. And I feel something. I mean the back of your head is tingling and maybe you get a little extra sensation going on down at the y.

If you want a mild roll, 70 to 80 mg like was stated above would be good.

The supposed optimal dose is about 120 mg for a woman and about 150 mg for man.

I'm not a doctor so don't take my advice as any kind of medical advice. However, if you can get pure MDMA like being used in a test or experiments, titrate it up 20 mg, 30 mg, in 10 mg increments giving yourself days or weeks in between, until you get to a level that you are getting effects but you're not getting bad side effects.

But most of all you have to fully believe that it's not going to happen to you again or else you will have a shitty roll and you will be anxious and heart palpitations and norepinephrine and adrenaline will be surging more than normal on e and it will just be a shitshow.

Hope that helps. I'm sorry you had a bad experience. Ecstasy is the best drug that I've ever taken except for some of the benzofuran that David Nichols developed, the 5 & 6 APB, and the 5 & 6 APDB.

Used to be able to order them from RC suppliers. They they would come airmail.

I have to say that I can't remember which compound it is, but one of those four the time that I took a nice dose. It beat the snot out of MDMA.

Honestly in my opinion it was better - it was longer, and better, and I just wanted to love the whole world and I wanted them to come rub on me and kiss me and I wanted to listen to music and I wanted to tell everybody how much I love them.

And there was no come down at all. And you can literally do it again the next day and nothing's less.

Now one of those is like MDA on steroids plus MDMA. It's not really speedy but it is super trippy when you take a big dose and it lasts for like 24 to 28 hours. It was crazy.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Yup. Reason being, some of the MDMA metabolizes to MDA in the body which gives the full effect.

It doesn't matter what route of administration you use, it all gets metabolized by the liver sooner or later. Insufflation, or IV administration, or plug it up your booty just means a difference in total bioavailability and initial effects from the dose.

The bioavailable amount will still be converted to a small percentage of MDA by your liver.

And if you want to get the most bang for your buck, then you should bang it. IV administration is 100% bioavailable which means none of it gets lost down your guts it all goes to your liver after it goes to your brain once, and the maximum amount that can be converted to MDA would happen from you shooting it into your veins.

**** I do not advocate IV administration of MDMA*****


Now the amount of MDA from a normal dose of MDMA is not enough to even cause any threshold effects. It's about 3-5% based on comparison of plasma levels of MDMA and MDA in human subjects. (Which would give you less than 10 mg of MDA)

152 PHARMACOKINETICS OF ECSTASY (MDMA) IN HEALTHY SUBJECTS​

de la Torre, R.; Ortuno, J.; Farré, M.; Mas, M.; Roset, P. N.; Menoyo, E.; Segura, J.; Camí, J.

"by R de la Torre · 1997 · Cited by 2 — and t1/2 (9. 53 vs 9.12 h). Comparison of AUC0-24h for MDA was about a 5% (3-5% range depending..."

---- It's behind a paywall so all I could do is snatch part from the search return.

There's a reference in clinicaltrials.gov of up to 10% MDMA is converted to MDA. So now you get 15 mg of MDA from 150 mg dose. Or maybe 30 mg of MDA from a 300 mg dose.

But again, that's if you shot it in your arm.

It'll be less if you booty bump it, less again if you swallow it, and less again if you snort it.

That means to get any effect from MDA as a byproduct of MDMA metabolism you would have to IV about 5 or 600 mg of MDMA. To get 50 or 60 mg of MDA.

The amount of MDMA that is metabolized into MDA at normal doses does not contribute to any psychoactive effect, regardless of the route of administration.

MDMA by itself has mild psychedelic action.

 

[Lil'LinaptkSix]

I am of the opinion that any drug will be less of a comedown in regard to quantity used.
The higher we go up the farther the fall.
Just my experiences.

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

I can't say I've ever had a 'hard comedown' from MDMA. I've never really understood the 'suicide tuesday' that many ravers experienced. But to be fair, they used to go hard, often mixing with Amphetamine and/or coke.

Decent MDMA on it's own often produces an 'afterglow' that leaves you feeling a little blissed out for a day or so. Don't get me wrong, there's often some pay back involved, but in my experience, it's usually just an 'out of sorts' feeling for a couple of days max.

But yeh, low doses (especially 10mg) is just a fuckin waste of time and drugs. You need to hit that threshold dose forit to be worthwhile.

 

[crazyhairman]

I'm no Dr or scientist, but it really just depends on a lot of factors. I noticed in my own experience there was a sort of "sweet spot" dosage range 50-200 mgs that if done with reasonable responsibility left me with maximum benefit with little to no negative mental state.

But that's not to say the hundreds of other self explorations into mdxx were painless or even safe. I made a lot of mistakes in my younger years. Mixing MDMA and other substances and or adulterates can sometimes boost certain aspects of effects, however this nearly always ends with your body and mind picking up the tab.

Unless you are even sure you had good quality clean MDMA 20 years ago.
Not even taking into account your very unique mental history, there's way too many variables to consider.