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Does knowledge gained from psychedelia truly count as knowledge?

gevo

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Nov 8, 2015
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I'm looking to write my philosophy dissertation paper entitled: Does knowledge gained from psychedelia truly count as knowledge?

Knowledge I define as 'justified belief' and psychedelic knowledge as 'belief that seems justifiable arising from/in the circumstance of being under the influence' (I know these need work for greater clarity)

Your opinions, philosophical or otherwise would be greatly appreciated :)
 
What do you mean? Of course it counts. I learn a ton about physics during some trips, but rather than learning what to think, you're learning how to think. A new way of thinking about things rather than new things to think about. This, of course, leads to discoveries made on your own, having used psychedelics as a tool to learn something yourself. I find this true for the psychology-themed and philosophical thoughts brought to me during trips as well.
 
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I completely agree! But for example one person argued (not my view, but from an objectivist, somewhat rationalist stance) that it goes something a bit like:
these are halluncinations (just for example) --> chemicals can affect brain function --> there are chemicals --> there are brains --> there are perceptions --> brain function can affect the way one experiences one's own perceptions --> these perceptions don't correlate to reality --> rationally and reasonably these hallucinations are not reality due to [FONT=Helvetica, sans-serif]logical inference...

Thanks for your response![/FONT]
 
The model of DNA was hypothesized on LSD. Anyway, psychedelics put you into alpha/theta brain wave states, and studies showed that people in these states while sober were able to learn/master tasks 30% faster than people in ordinary waking states. Non-linear thinking can lead you to valid conclusions you never would've reached with a linear thought process. There is some science behind it.
 
I completely agree! But for example one person argued (not my view, but from an objectivist, somewhat rationalist stance) that it goes something a bit like:
these are halluncinations (just for example) --> chemicals can affect brain function --> there are chemicals --> there are brains --> there are perceptions --> brain function can affect the way one experiences one's own perceptions --> these perceptions don't correlate to reality --> rationally and reasonably these hallucinations are not reality due to logical inference...

Thanks for your response!

When people argue that a brain under the influence isn't experiencing reality... clearly they haven't done any psychedelics! I've felt while tripping LSD that I suddenly see the world exactly as it truly is, and that in my daily sober life, all the bullshit that modern society forces upon us clouds my true understanding of life, and that everything is in fact more unreal whenever I'm in a sober state of mind. I have never achieved a clarity of mind without either departing from city life for an extended period of time, or ingesting psychedelic drugs. The hussle and bussle of modern life isn't reality. Reality is a clear mind, be it with the aid of nature, or the aid of psychedelics... but certainly not a mind dwelling within the trappings of today's society.
 
As suggested by the other posts, people for sure get tangible positive effects from psychedelics. In the same way CrypticArc gets some physics insight, all we have to do is look at art and music that came from the psychedelic 60's and beyond. For sure these subjective experiences have produced objective gems that we all can appreciate. So even though it is in the mind, the outcome can be an objective experience, object or theory. So one mind can produce something from these experiences that another mind can appreciate. To me that's big.
 
knowledge gained from psychedelics or hallucinogens on the whole only counts if you use it when you are sober...
 
That's the other thing I was going to say! It only counts if you apply it.
 
Am I the only one who has absolutely no fucking idea exactly what knowledge or understanding I'm gaining while tripping? hahaha I mean it's like someone handing me a PhD with the subject completely missing. I learned a whole lotta....something.
 
I completely agree! But for example one person argued (not my view, but from an objectivist, somewhat rationalist stance) that it goes something a bit like:
these are halluncinations (just for example) --> chemicals can affect brain function --> there are chemicals --> there are brains --> there are perceptions --> brain function can affect the way one experiences one's own perceptions --> these perceptions don't correlate to reality --> rationally and reasonably these hallucinations are not reality due to logical inference...

Thanks for your response!

This is obviously a faulty argument. The hallucinations have nothing to do with the knowledge gained. Also, the knowledge is entirely gained from your brain. It is no different in theory from a sober brain. So, this boils down to straight epistemology.

This seems like a horrible topic to write a dissertation on (let alone a paper) since there is no sound objection. But, if you are talking about discovering things that you can only access from psychedelics, such as when people perceive something deeper about reality that is impossible to prove, that is a different topic. But it is equally bad to write about, because the obvious answer is no.
 
OP, knowledge is knowledge, no matter how it's gained. Every experience is something to learn from too.

I think speculation isn't really knowledge though, except if it's strong and well informed.

The more you know...
 
Seems tricky, most of it is insight and not knowledge especially not empirical.

We often confuse knowledge with convictions based on impressive experiences that give us the overwhelming feeling that it makes sense and that 'we get it'. I think that we have brain functions that register things like novelty (claimed by Dave Nichols), the feeling that we 'get it' / making sense (Promoted in philosophy of science). But how we try to achieve understanding is often via metaphors of abstract mechanics, e.g.:
We believe we can understand how the behavior of (physics of) gas molecules work or radios, but we do so by metaphors: "its kinda like atoms are billiard balls" or "its kinda like a radio sends waves that are received". Those are actually false metaphors that help us piece the puzzle together a bit more, help us work with the theory better in practice only up to some extent... but we give ourselves way too much credit thinking we actually understand. In reality, things like that are way more complicated.

It feels evident to me that this also happens all the time with people having psychedelic revelations, much more so because of:
- Our endless underestimation of the vast illusions brought forward even in sober experience, let alone when brain regions are artificially stimulated!
- The experiences being subjective, yet feeling often more convincing than most of our other 'realizations'.

My point is that from psychedelic experience you get a bizarre disparity in development in thought and belief systems. If you ask me, what experienced trippers DO tend to get good at, is not so much knowledge but rather insight and wisdom that applies to what personal meanings we attach to things like life, death and truth, insight in ourselves and how we feel we relate to the world and fellow human beings... but often NOT actually understanding of complicated fields of knowledge.
Sometimes, yes, it does lead to valid scientific and philosophical insight mostly because of amplified creative out-of-the-box thinking but that is way overshadowed by the FALSE belief systems we come up with in our open minds sensitive and susceptible to suggestion. We cannot distinguish this properly, are oblivious to that fact, and give it the benefit of the doubt because we felt so much novelty and feelings of 'getting it'. Look around this forum, people can really lose themselves FAST in strange ideation and theories that have entirely too little merit to be actually credible or plausible. We WANT to believe and we WANT to understand and 'get it', there is evolutionary advantage to that and long has been. That is not a substitute for actual knowledge. The wisdom and personal growth we do experience, tends to inflate our egos, negating part of our 'spiritual progress' and further thwarting skepticism.

Our consciousness can expand rapidly and often with the advent of psychedelics, but (thinking of) knowing is not understanding is especially not realizing let alone self-actualizing. We have blind spots for that all over the place.
It would probably be more wise to focus on what is revealed that we don't know and cannot really understand and leave the actual knowledge to careful and properly paced scientific endeavor, to realize the provisional nature of our models of understanding and be humbled. That often teaches us so much more, and can help our mentalities to challenges of life and society, our inner peace. We can achieve a lot there and much more reliably, that kind of thing is fortunately not dependent on how real or unreal the experiences were that promoted it.
 
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It's almost as if I have to go back and look up what knowledge means now, heh.

I kind of saw it as knowledge in the same vein as knowledge from solving a problem. But that's a wonderful post, Solipsis. :) I would say you have a better grasp at concepts than I do.

Life is complicated, that's for sure. On the spiritual front, I feel like it's never ending...even now, I see so much that I have to improve on in other areas too. Perhaps we are all destined for futility, in a sense. :)
 
why would the psychedelic state of mind be inferior to the sober state of mind?

the sober experience of consciousness also is chemical reactions in your brain, you know. you're just messing with how it processes information when you trip. and different people have different experiences of consciousness, why would one be less valid than the other?

that and also, you seem to dismiss phenomens happening during a trip as hallucinations, and assume that when sober we do have a good picture of 'reality' or think rationally at all. but that's definitely NOT the case.

it's hard to go deeper into this without defining knowledge but, uh, if i learn for example to cook something while tripping, how come does that not count?
 
Nobody said it was inferior, but when you are talking validity, truth and knowledge (let's put aside the sage wisdom and insights) "messing with processing of information" as you say could be easily seen to suggest that the knowledge we may think we gain may be compromised as it is by definition also messed with.

While psychedelia is different from "true deleriant hallucination", I'm - for example - still pretty sure the explanations for seeing kaleidoscopic colors are much more plausibly found in the affected visual cortex processing; considering one of the most certain thing we know about psychedelics is that they are chemicals that influence brain function... more plausible than, say, that we can finally "see colors in a wider spectrum that is ultimate reality". That is definitely a more romantic idea, but there are many more similar phenomena like migraine aura's with zigzag OEVs, and those also only tend to be explained as magical or divine by tribes unaware of neuropharmacology. Ancient beliefs will also have to confront Occam's razor.

The point of that is: while seeing things like colors you've never seen before is interesting and offers insight in many things like the workings of our visual cortex in different modes, any knowledge we think we gain from that is tentative and instead more likely to be misinterpreted in ways we would love to be the truth.

In that sense, experiencing more sensory illusions and cognitive delusions can give us a whole lot of insight into the illusory nature of many things we experience sober and take for true and for granted.
Therefore I agree with you(!) that when sober we don't have a true picture of reality either because it is always subjective to begin with, observation in itself is empty (as a machine may do) and pointless; interpretation always colors our perception, once we determine what we choose to look for, functionally, we are already filling in things that are not strictly there.

Learning how to cook while tripping is not knowledge gained FROM psychedelia but a skill / information gained WHILST tripping. Psychedelia can stimulate creative imagination, that can allow us to come up with for example ideas for recipes we never thought of before but that again is not something we suddenly know, just something we intuitively think could be interesting to pursue and it very well may be.
But if during a trip you have CEVs of something compelling happening, that is not necessarily more or less true that something different we imagine or dream even if it more complex, novel or convincing than normal.
What should actually be convincing is what holds up when we test it and attack it. How many people have the guts to really experiment, test and attack their beliefs and see how well they hold up?

As I said a few times now: the issue is with filtering what is sensible which is very hard or impossible to keep up with realtime. I have extensive experience with losing skepticism in favor of creative imagination (during periods of very frequent tripping), and that is not supportive of theories or models that are true or purposeful. More on this as a tangent:
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In my experience I had a lot of ideas and plenty of them were unfounded even if they became very intricate.. I could easily see how further down the road you might find delusional schizophrenics who may have incredible ideas which are alas not properly filtered properly to distinguish consensus reality (best we got to stay somewhat sane) from pure fantasy. Cf. John Nash. Some theories are exceptionally elegant and prove to hold up when you test them. I occasionally have/had just regular level good ideas [nothing that worldchanging] but hardly if ever knowledge that was 'revealed' to me. Instead I just found I had to parse my ideas all over again with due skepticism to test them and throw all the rubbish out.
Since then I vowed to stick closer to theories that are skeptical and honestly admit our limits, human blind spots and logical fallacies, and other big traps that we fall into en masse (similar to things illusionists exploit). It costs more energy and is sometimes sadly disillusioning (which is the point as the word itself says!), but I feel there is always more merit in those theories that hold up much longer than the wild fantasies that are the very first resort for most people. For example to explain DMT trips as truly alien / other-dimensional, which just like many religious revelatory myths need fargoing assumptions that have absolutely zero basis other than that they are compelling. When you start picking at wild theories like that they fall apart unless you make even more incredible assumptions. I appreciate that believers of that, like religious people, may be glowing with wonder... and I also appreciate that the world is infinitely more bizarre, and wondrous and complex than we fathom.... but that does not give us a carte blanche to just come up with whatever... instead what we provisionally take as true and scientifically founded is built on progressively testable hypotheses.

I don't prefer to boldly defend science but instead as I suggested I take pride in being humble about what we may hope to actually take for knowledge. That is a much healthier vantage point than any arrogant or greedy relishing of complex unchecked ideation. We can all feel blessed to have psychedelics but let's not congratulate ourselves with just any psychedelic revelation thinking that a compromised filter means that true reality can finally be seen unbridled and in all its glory.

It's not all illusion and hallucination either.

Just take advantage of all psychedelic inspiration, honest self-inquiry and skepticism and sieve until you retain only what is agreeable with all modes.



So yes: creative imagination for ever more farfetched, complex, interconnected ideas certainly happened when I tripped a whole lot, but none of it was gained knowledge until I combined it with skepticism and research. That is why I conclude that insight can be gained and creativity in art, science, philosophy and other fields may be stimulated... but knowledge is not gained FROM psychedelia, just a jumble of ideas both valid and invalid that need to be filtered sooner or later, because deep, profound and out-of-the-box thinking may be awesome but it is just from big leaps between neuronal branches of your mind that is indifferent to validity. And that is why it starts counting as knowledge only when it is processed some more and reality-checked.
One of the nice things it did for me is catalyze my tendency to think of absurdist jokes and cartoons fueled by hyperassociation.
 
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I separate my psychedelic insights into 2 categories: spiritual experiences and applied knowledge. In terms of spiritual experiences, I have had experiences which have changed my life and altered my belief system. I FEEL as if this is true knowledge, but I don't use it as proof of anything, except to myself. I understand that though I seem to have experienced something transcendent that is more real than ordinary reality, I could be wrong, so I leave room for that and wouldn't try to tell someone I have proof of anything because of it.

The other type of knowledge I have gotten from psychedelics is knowledge about myself, situations, humanity itself, and so on that I got as a result of the change in thought process that psychedelics cause. This type of knowledge in my opinion truly counts as knowledge, as long as you have reflected upon it while sober and determined it to be valid. I've had plenty of false insights as well but I definitely feel that my use of psychedelics has aided in my development as a logical and insightful person.
 
The question is completely illogical, IMO. Or at least, the way it's stated. Is knowledge knowledge? Is a cake a cake?

A better question would be, "Is it possible to gain legitimate knowledge via psychedelics?"

I'm not dissing your idea, by the way, I'm just saying you need to reword it.
 
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