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Does DMT bend around objects?

Synaps3

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Sep 14, 2011
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I've never tried DMT before, but I think I'll probably take it at some point. I've experienced 4-aco-dmt and 4-ho-mipt a few times, but not enough to discern this. I'm trying to get a feel for the 'depth' of DMT. Do the visuals noticeably wrap around objects (considering you're using a low dose and not in hyperspace) or is it just layered on top of your vision? I think having it wrap around something may indicate some type of intelligent design.
 
There is no need for intelligent design type explanations, your imagination and visual cortex just get massively flooded and stimulated - for example you may see eyes / faces / entities because we have specific detection systems in particular parts of our brain. When stimulated they cause you to feel you are seeing / detecting eyes, faces or life-forms.
Your normal vision gets taken over by other visual output coming directly from the brain being stimulated by DMT.
 
for example you may see eyes / faces / entities because we have specific detection systems in particular parts of our brain. When stimulated they cause you to feel you are seeing / detecting eyes, faces or life-forms.

That makes sense, but would something as simple as a corner or round object have some type of detection that the DMT might activate?

It would probably just alter your depth perception now that I think of it, so the answer is probably yes.
 
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...OK, I get it, but only if the amount of 5ht2a receptors is greater in the visual cortex than in the depth perception part because if not then your 'actual' depth perception would be too fucked to work right.
 
Yes, we also have parts of the brain that are related to patterns and geometry, although I'd personally say that this involves interplay.

Anything that is in some way essential to our survival...
- eyes / face for understanding facial expressions of other individuals in ancient tribes so that the reaction to danger the tribe encounters can be shared quickly by all tribe-members - primal social activities had advantages that worked like this
- life forms so that in the jungle a dangerous animal can be identified quickly, even if camouflaged - this can also save your life
... or just fundamental to abstraction of our world so that we can make a map in our mind by using shapes and spatial relationships etc.

is governed by important and probably specialized aspects of the visual cortex I think.

DMT is considered extra extraordinary and I think it is - but mostly in the sense that it seems to stimulate our visions to the extreme.. and because our mind creates a stream of consciousness and constantly tries to make sense and has the subconscious and your personality involved, we try to come up with some dream-like story sequence that tries to bring together the shapes and entities etc and makes it as coherent as possible... which is a challenge and clearly has bizarre results.

I don't think that it necessarily devalues what we think of DMT if we believe that we interface with parts of our own psyche. That is still amazing and can still be profound, there is a lot of wisdom and power buried there! In that sense you may surprise yourself if it is unlocked and communicated with!

I think it is denial and wishful thinking that there is something supernatural, extraterretrial or extradimensional about DMT experiences. A lot of related substances are known to act in the brain and mess with our perception, some more potent than others. With the milder ones it can be a lot more clear that buttons are pushed in our brain, we can see behind the curtain and presumably understand how the drug acts. It seems silly that once it gets a lot more complicated, intense and harder to understand, suddenly the explanation is sought in magical explanations. Considering that there is a decent explanation for the milder experiences... it is incredibly likely that very similar substances act in similar ways and are not keys to spacetime travel, out of the blue.

What I will say is that traveling through your own psyche in such experiences - while not supernatural - still has all those promises of being incredible and extraordinary like traveling to other, more physical, worlds beyond our own.
And in that world of your mind, there is a 'god' that generates everything there ever was in that world and ever will be and that is the core of that spirit-mind. I think that mind dimension is where things are seemingly warped, but our physical laws of nature remain untouched.

-----

@ your question: IMO it takes a certain level of dissociation to lose your depth perception because as long as you are not dissociated from your feeling of being located / oriented in a certain way in your environment, I think that feeling is encoded rather pervasively in your proprioception.
When the experience gets strong enough for the experience generated in your 'minds eye' to overrule your sensory experience - then you break through and are fully immersed as they say. In that way, IMO all psychedelics are ultimately also dissociative.

Compare with salvia, an atypical dissociative and visionary drug... which is a lot more known for fucking with your sense of where you are, which tends to make things 2D and in doing so ruins your depth perception usually in an early stage of the trip's intensity. I'd say earlier than with DMT. Same thing with a lot of typical dissociatives.
So yeah I guess that tells us something about what is encoded by the highly 5-HT governed systems i.e. rather general perception and what is encoded by NMDAR i.e. conceptual information including apparently proprioception. But, there is probably overlap as those systems are wired into each other to make the big picture.
 
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That was an interesting read Solipsis, thanks.
The funny thing about DMT is that the CEV's are so complex that I have a hard time believeing it's created by a human mind...
I found light dose OEV's to run like threads on the object's surface, no melting and such like on lsd.
 
Low dose DMT for me rarely gives me OEVs like pattern overlays or fractals. If they are there, it's very faint like the last dregs of a mushroom trip. It's more the like world is tinted by a strange, cinematic yellow light that casts dimensional shadows. Small lights make tracers and become infinitely complex and meaningful (ie, my internet router becomes a busy space port with lots of tiny spaceships docking and taking off). On higher doses of DMT I'm too lost in the visual journey to be aware of my surroundings.
 
Interesting read indeed Solipsis. It's not often you read a text of DMT demystified from someone who has actually taken it =D !
But, don't you think that there are more questions surrounding DMT which cannot be answered by just saying it's the reptilian brain? Like, why do so many people report small elves and leprechauns? Why are people finding themselves in a dimly lit room? Why the zany atmosphere/bugs bunny cartoon-theme? What other drug has those qualities? What are those qualities anyway...?
And the complexity of the DMT hallucinations are unlike anything else. More complex than ordinary world for sure. I also experience them as wrapping around things, like octopus arms... But that's just a minor thing compare to the entities, I think.
Given it a lot of thought myself, I can't say I have any answers other than I'd like to think it's the good ol brain but I can't quite convince myself...

PS. OEVs on a lower dose kind of resembles me of the Saint Basil's cathedral esthetically, absolutely gorgeous.
 
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I believe you can see round corners on DMT. Just don't test it with a speeding truck.
 
Solipsis?????? as if its all imagination and a reflection of your mind what dmt breakthrough create. as if the brain can make that. its quite clear that you leave your body and experience pure awareness without the boundaries of our self created reality based on our 5 senses and our thoughts.

you clearly visit realm that is so remote from us that its impossible to imagine. Theres a part of those experience that is real and true, just like our material reality is real.
and then the entities, the 4 dimension awareness, the bliss, the light.

I guess some like to pretend its all in the brain to denial something they dont want to look about life, but its not only the brain creating the experience. Your own mind is the creator of it all, and your mind is real and comes with whole lot of responsibility.
 
Oh Solipsis, such a freaking great post man <3

Solipsis?????? as if its all imagination and a reflection of your mind what dmt breakthrough create. as if the brain can make that. its quite clear that you leave your body and experience pure awareness without the boundaries of our self created reality based on our 5 senses and our thoughts.

How is it more likely that DMT actually transports us to another dimension, then that it alters the biochemical functioning of the brain to create the sensation of inter-dimensional travel? The brain is able to use raw electromagnetic data to create a visual world, and is doing it right now for me and you. This suggests it has incredible abilties in terms of creating utterly convincing, cohesive illusions out of unbridled, raw, chaotic data. There is no reason at all to suggest that this suddenly flies out the window when you smoke DMT. I think you might be underestimating the brain :)

you clearly visit realm that is so remote from us that its impossible to imagine. Theres a part of those experience that is real and true, just like our material reality is real.and then the entities, the 4 dimension awareness, the bliss, the light
.

The DMT experience is as real and true as any other experience. In fact, for many, it is even realer or truer. But the beauty and truth of the experience does not mean that it ocurrs somewhere non-physical and does not mean that supernatural other realms and beings exist. It is a byproduct of our evolutionary history, that we seek to find hidden significance in things- to sniff out danger, to discover an ambush, to find a secret spring in a desert, to anticipate coming rain- and its not really a functionality that we can switch off. We just do it constantly, and DMT seems to exacerbate this tendency ....:)

I guess some like to pretend its all in the brain to denial something they dont want to look about life, but its not only the brain creating the experience. Your own mind is the creator of it all, and your mind is real and comes with whole lot of responsibility.

You're really not saying anything that different. I'd like to see how good a trip (or life) someone has without a brain.

Why do you create a duality between the physical and non-physical? I assure, no such distinction exists objectively; these arguments, that physicality and spirituality are at odds, are just a symptom of the troublesome human brain. DMT, by working through physical means, can provide us with an experience that is outside of words and time and place; it is a physical susbtance that can provide a non-physical and unquantifiable experience; the two co-exist, and are only seperate in the human "mind".
 
Clearly the power of what different parts of our brain are tasked to do are normally just about as extremely understated as the transcendental explanations can seem overstated. Or vice versa if you are a believer with opposite convictions. It's up for everyone to decide for themselves what they believe in, of course, but whatever the truth turns out to be this shit is complicated.

My view is this one: a lot of these things are demystified - I think there are neurological explanations for a lot of very strange phenomena that involve hallucinations (think hypnogogic / hypnopompic, etc) with wide ranges of content, content that indeed includes elements also seen in DMT trips, just combined differently. If DMT is so powerful that it unites a lot of different kinds of hallucinations, it can still be explained, the leap to make is just bigger. But the fact that if we try hard a lot can still be pieced together should hold our attention, not the parts we cannot piece together yet. It is a similar discussion with evolution vs. intelligent design in that some people seem to be drawn more strongly towards skepticism that encourages to find the truth despite the missing parts, not fold under the pressure of uncertainty to go to the more emotionally satisfying argument that overthrows our thinking on grounds of such esthaethics and the ethereal ghost of sensibility.
I think that it is just because of brain coherence: the parts communicating together forming a complex circuit with output just seem staggeringly bigger in number with DMT - so indeed there is your unity. The self transforming (to me mostly natively shapeless) elves may have their origin in our childhood where we may have deeply associated playfulness with the kind of creative operations the elves seem 'tasked with'. And while bliss, rapture and ecstacy (yes I have witnessed these with e.g. I.M. 5-MeO-DMT) feel to be of spiritual nature, I don't think trying to explain it would even be *that* difficult - intense pleasure combined with very deep meditative calming of all the rest should be sufficient to achieve it. Again, I don't want to devalue it's transformative beauty by saying it can be explained - but thinking that something worth worshipping is betrayed by explanation is orthodox ideation, which seems like the real sin!
To depart from jaia's kind words: yes I think it takes more courage to demystify DMT despite everything it has going for itself, than to allow yourself to believe the illusion. It may take more work to find scientifically backed explanations, but in the end those are much more consistent with everything we know - even if believing is more consistent with everything we think. Don't pretend that you have Occam's razor on your side.

I think the number of entity contacts that can be somehow linked to our own emotional / subconscious state are vast, and this compells me to think those we cannot link or explain are as well. What the mind does is project in the first place, so if complex mentalities are projected onto entities, no wonder this can be convicing. And the entities are inherently wired / defined to be experienced as not-ourselves! That is the whole point.
Just like I remember that experiencing a god-like presence has both been triggered by electrically stimulating a certain lobe as well as been explained with evolutionary reasons (it has value to 'imagine' a divine operator behind something like fruit falling from a tree just so that you don't experience it as coincidental and inconsequential - there was a better way to formulate the explanation though..), I think that there are many circuits we have gained over time that are normally wired together beautifully and in such a way that it is hard to take a step back and see what is actually going on with it, we don't know better and we are convinced that we are seeing the world even, rather than the movie we generate by receiving input from it....
It is so awesome that when something like DMT comes along that rewires it's activity profoundly, yet apparently still enables or induces our ability to integrate it into experience that feels not lucid but superlucid (I'd say there is the real magic), we don't even tend to believe that our brain is misleading us.
But honestly, we rarely do.
 
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all good, we all have different view on the experience. but I strongly feel that our awareness is not connected to the brain and that when you take a high does of dmt, the brain is totally bypassed and you are aware of thousands of alternate realities, ect because you indeed totally bypass that brain of ours. its like you destroy all what your awareness is normally concerned about.


even within our human awareness sober, there are ways to bypass the effect the brain has on our awareness to change the nature of our awareness. Yes, one can think its that you use the brain in many different ways, but I dont think the brain is the master here, our awareness is, the brain follows.

but this is getting into deep believes about the nature of ourselves and what we are. I just dont think im merely a brain and a human, im much more then that.
 
yes, on low doses things can appear wrapped in a psychedelic geometric wrapping paper.
just take another hit and open up your gift.
 
i rather leave psychedelic experiences the magic that they deserve. scientifically explaining it just seems quite boring. i'm not a huge fan of science but i enjoy ideas from it.

what's the world without enigma?

and yes dmt does bend around objects i guess. I've seen someone's aura ball up and fly around me if that counts?
 
I am prepared to accept that consciousness is a fundamental property of the universe.
This appealed to me:

http://www.ted.com/talks/david_chalmers_how_do_you_explain_consciousness?language=en

Nevertheless the brain is still a conductor, and as long as we can stick to answers more anchored in science I think we ought to. How convincing things feel to me IMO should always be tested by how incredibly well the brain can follow illusions. It is desillusioning to see how fooled we can be, but I think the skepticism it provokes helps with a more mature quest for the truth. That is at least how my beliefs and thoughts about this topic were shaped and I don't judge people who have differing opinions.

It is hard to weigh the truth against feeling like there is magic in the world. I don't think scientific explanations are meant to make things boring, usually the explanation only starts to hint at a link but the actual intricate workings behind it can be truly fascinating when you keep going. Even if there is a little dip when an illusion is being poked through.

I am reminded by Mulder and that 'I want to believe' poster.

And also that classic quote: "...Now my own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose." by Haldane, and

Science Nature is stranger than fiction.
 
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science based on our changeable consciousness isnt science. science cannot study consciousness at all, and never will be as its not totally related to the brain, or only partially revealed by brain activity.

the mind and the body are separate. the mind tells you to write, and the body follow.
we are too concern about the body, not enough about the content of our consciousness
 
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Solipsis do you believe in Science, Religion,Solipsism, something else or what? Don't wanna start a argument but I'm simply wondering?
 
It's alright to ask, but tbh I don't like being pigeonholed.. ;)
I guess I am both very rational / analytical which gives me a high affinity with science, but I have also had mystical experiences on psychedelics, and have practised 'barebone' Zen-Buddhism which is not a religion since it hardly tells you to do anything (let alone believe) but letting go of beliefs but rather to just sit, meditate, experience. I've been on retreats and experienced things that reminded me a lot of LSD's effects which I found very interesting and suggestive.
Also I love mysticism because it is honest to go and experience ineffable things for yourself rather than revelations which are instead telling someone else what to believe based on experiences that person hasn't necessarily had. Which is a huge basis for miscommunication. Sure it is good to encourage lofty moral values but I despise indoctrination by churches.
 
nice same here. I've sort of devised my own religion as well. Based on a book called "Conversations with God" It contains fantastic ideas. Like the idea of good and evil not existing n shit.

Together with hallucinogens it gave me a sense of GOD. The sense that I lost during my time with pharmaceutical drugs that just empty the soul and promote hedonism.
 
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