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Does any particular drug use or withdrawal cause muscle wasting (=loss of mass) ?

But even the wikipedia page suggests that clonazepam affects serotonin and acetylcholine. It does some things that most benzodiazepines don´t do.
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If you read the reference, all the benzodiazepines tested reduce the release of ACh in a select part of a cat's brain... this is far from it effecting ACh in the muscles.

The amount of released ACh was determined in 15-min samples by a bioassay on a segment from isolated guinea-pig ileum. It was found that benzodiazepines applied i.p. in doses of: 5 mg/kg (Diazepam), 10 mg/kg (Clonazepam) and 0.5 mg/kg (Flunitrazepam) decreased the ACh release in the effluent flowing out through the cannulated aqueduct.
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6133407

This leads me to believe it's not an unique effect that clonazepam has, it's probably related to downstream effects from all benzos. I don't think it's a result of benzos binding to acetylcholine receptors either, or that would have been discovered in binding screens.
 
Well, if benzodiazepines are going to reduce neurotransmitter release by reducing the chloride current, wouldn't they reduce most neurotransmitter release?
 
There's a lot of neurotransmitters to consider but generally speaking, yes, benzos decrease nervous activity via positive modulation of GABA-Ar - perhaps a better way to phrase it would be to say that benzodiazepines have a depressant effect on the CNS (as opposed to an excitatory/stimulant one). I think the primary effect, though, is still modulating GABA-A activity, and most of the other effects are downstream, caused by the increased GABA activity.

It's important to not get blinded by making generalizations about whether this "increases release of neurotransmitters" or otherwise though, because it is also useful to look at *where* in the brain the changes in neurotransmitter levels happen, as well as what NT's exactly, the relative effect size, etc.
 
Cotcha Yankinov,

For the most part, no. The doc isn't cooperative. Of course, hormone levels tend to fluctuate and which ones would I have checked ?
I once had a TSH test. I wanted more, but since it was within the range (3.3) t3, reverse t3 and t4 were not checked.
Needless to say I have very limited confidence in the local healthcare system.

Folks, this isn't just about the therapeutic effect of clonazepam. There is long term use (homeostasis!), probably some kind of interdose withdrawal ... likely tolerance withdrawal (?) The drug is partly paradoxical.

After long term use one could expect effective downregulation of GABA, upregulation and sensitization of glutamate, alterations in serotonin, acetylcholine and norepinephrine release/neurotransmitter systems (various sources), alterations in HPA axis activity and other hormones.

Sekio, agreed the primary effect is on GABA. As a side note, originally I took this drug as a muscle relaxant and I didn't feel much aside from the muscle relaxation while it obviously does much more.

The phenomenon of muscle wasting is a bit extreme and strange. It started a few years ago, quite limited at the time. It's worse in winter.

I am not gonna say anything about the state of my taper here ... (FYI, the phenomenon also occurs when there is no tapering)

theGirlWithBlueHair, I wish I could reverse that process !
 
I can only add anecdotal information, but after reading this and considering it, I have to think this concept could be related to dramatic loss in muscle tone/mass when I was forced to cold-turkey in jail. I had a 6-year habit, the last 2 years taking between 6-12 mg a day depending on my resourcefulness. Like so many proper benzo jags this culminated in incarceration. I was extremely fit when I was hemmed-up, I had been framing houses, typically six 12 hour days a week, eating between 6000 and 8000 calories a day to fuel such activity. So shredded I had veins popping in my abs and back muscles, i was pretty happy with my physical condition. 3 weeks of hellish withdrawals in jail, hallucinations and psych distress included, resulted in 15 pounds of weight lost, along with a complete loss of muscle tone, and I;m talking going into jail built like an olympic swimmer, comming out less than a month later looking like a lazy flabby early-puberty teenager.
I have mostly considered this as a result of change in diet and activity level, and of course those are major factors, but now I have a rabbit-hole of reading to do. I really felt like i was being "consumed," and I really appreciate the information provided in this thread, it's a great departure-point to do my own further reading and maybe discover some more revealing answers.
 
I lost ridiculous amounts of weight from opiate wd.

I was already skinny at the time so it was to the point where a 6 foot man's size 32 jeans were baggy.

My stomach and bladder were like concaved looking.
 
Increased dopamine (D1 + D5), according to that somewhat inapplicable study, potentiates increased muscle mass, not wasting.

OP I think you already know that some drugs both in use and in withdrawal can lead to wasting. Stimulants and opiates are particularly notorious I suppose.

However neither conclusion is foregone. If you're able to eat well and exercise plenty, that may attenuate any tendency towards LBM decline, even in opiate WD with low testosterone levels. You don't actually need testosterone to increase LBM.

Also, in use stimulants have contradictory effects - although they can raise cortisol, there's evidence they suppress myostatin, and so significantly shift the balance in favour of muscle retention and fat loss. Hence perhaps many of the ripped muscular club-going guys you see around.

Again much of this depends on how much sleep you're getting, how much exercise, how much stress you're under, how many calories and how much protein you eat, and so on. In other words a complex picture, from which you may struggle to derive any conclusive answers.
 
If the withdrawal symptoms destroy your motivation to exercise then the answer is ABSOLUTELY.
 
Anything more than 'pathetic' exercise (like walking 400 metres), even a 15 min workout in the gym will cause adverse effects ... In some ways, it seems I'm in a (mostly) permanent state of overtraining.
 
Kdem said:
Anything more than 'pathetic' exercise (like walking 400 metres), even a 15 min workout in the gym will cause adverse effects ... In some ways, it seems I'm in a (mostly) permanent state of overtraining.
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That doesn't even make sense.

Eat more food, get more rest, and train harder actually. You won't wither away lol.
 
I've had severe deconditioning and some neuropathy (neurologist at one point prescribed aggressive standing, just had to stand for 5 minutes a couple times a day, I couldn't lift my arm above my head for more than 20-30 seconds, I didn't move my right hand for 3 months, couldn't even sit in a chair for more than 10 minutes because my spine was so weak, I would get very lightheaded even just sitting down and going from laying down to sitting) so let this be a testament to just how bad deconditioning can get, and also I can testify that you will definitely get some "adverse effects" when conditioning out of this. You do have to find a level of exercise that is anabolic but you have to push yourself a little bit if you want to grow.

Mentioning specific issues that you currently have or adverse effects after exercise would be helpful to a doctor/physical therapist.
 
Not that long ago I was outside for about an hour, a bit physically active although I wouldn't call it 'exercise'. I got a hormonal reaction. I'm not sure what happened, my muscles felt rigid/affected afterwards and I seemed to suffer a deterioration of my physical condition/muscles (?) for a few days after. Sleep issues as well. A rather strong reaction for minor activity.

As a side note, when I once tried diazepam and went back to clonazepam I noticed profound anticholinergic effects. Reminded me a bit of promethazine. So I wonder if there is some cholinergic effect that could take place, or if clonazepam's effect on serotonin (upregulation of serotonin transporter, serotonin depletion, perhaps increased brain catecholamines, perhaps oversimplified) has something to do with this. I'm very sensitive to anticholinergics.

It was never this bad before I went on lorazepam BID, while I always took clonazepam once a day. I seem to be in some kind of 'withdrawal' from the lorazepam, the clonazepam is 'weaker' ever since.
 
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