Need Help Do seizures always make you lose consciousness and are they always/usually dangerous/life threatening?

[Antares]

The thing with it not necessarily being worth bringing up to doctors is mostly just from my own experiences. I've had a lot of medical problems, done a lot of medical tests, and got answers for very few of the problems. I don't know if this is the experience most people have with doctors. Though I do think if it's actually seizures, you're not going to have any luck. But it's just, if you're already going to a doctor, it doesn't seem like there's any reason not to ask them about it. I don't know if they would call your psychiatrist or not. I've only had a pharmacist even suggest that she might call mine, but then again, I've never been honest with any doctor about any of my drug use.

Also I really am thinking now that it probably couldn't have been a seizure. Most seizures are over within like, two minutes. Anything that's more than 5 minutes is considered a medical emergency I think (and I've heard are more difficult for the person to come out of even with meds). I also don't think you'd be able to make the decision to go and take a klonopin if you were in the middle of any kind of seizure, because either you won't be mentally there or you won't be physically there.

The glutamate surge thing made me wonder if you've ever had these episodes without it being close to alcohol use. Some googling around and found this from a site: "Several studies have identified an increased glutamate release in ‘binge drinking’ animals in NAC during ethanol ingestion" so it honestly could even just be that, and the episodes are new to you not because of the kratom or phenibut, but because of the built up damage from just the alcohol. Even if it's just the morning after, it could be like a rebound thing that's just getting more extreme over time. The fact that klonopin helps it really pushes me in those types of directions too.

 

[Mycophile]

The thing with it not necessarily being worth bringing up to doctors is mostly just from my own experiences. I've had a lot of medical problems, done a lot of medical tests, and got answers for very few of the problems. I don't know if this is the experience most people have with doctors. Though I do think if it's actually seizures, you're not going to have any luck. But it's just, if you're already going to a doctor, it doesn't seem like there's any reason not to ask them about it. I don't know if they would call your psychiatrist or not. I've only had a pharmacist even suggest that she might call mine, but then again, I've never been honest with any doctor about any of my drug use.

Also I really am thinking now that it probably couldn't have been a seizure. Most seizures are over within like, two minutes. Anything that's more than 5 minutes is considered a medical emergency I think (and I've heard are more difficult for the person to come out of even with meds). I also don't think you'd be able to make the decision to go and take a klonopin if you were in the middle of any kind of seizure, because either you won't be mentally there or you won't be physically there.

The glutamate surge thing made me wonder if you've ever had these episodes without it being close to alcohol use. Some googling around and found this from a site: "Several studies have identified an increased glutamate release in ‘binge drinking’ animals in NAC during ethanol ingestion" so it honestly could even just be that, and the episodes are new to you not because of the kratom or phenibut, but because of the built up damage from just the alcohol. Even if it's just the morning after, it could be like a rebound thing that's just getting more extreme over time. The fact that klonopin helps it really pushes me in those types of directions too.

I don't think these are seizures either. I think you are probably right that they are more extreme gaba rebound. The answer is NO...they have never happened by themselves without me having drank the previous day/being hungover. I have always gotten very bad gaba rebound hang-anxiety, but it is now physical symptoms. Cdin mentioned the DTs, but can this be the DTs if I am Klonopin and I only drink like twice a month?

The only thing that HAS happened to me when not close to drinking is that for the past week I've been in mild Kratom WD, and most days (didn't really happen much today, just a little, and there was another day it didn't happen, but it's happened several days in a row) while i am waking up, I will get cold and shiver just a little bit even though it's not cold. It's like a MUCH milder version of what happens with these other episodes. It's like I'm half asleep, waking up, and for some odd reason I get cold and shiver a little. However...I am thinking it could be Kratom WD cause can't Kratom WD cause the chills? Don't people wake up in Kratom WD? It DOESN'T happen if I wake up at night to piss, only once it gets to be noon or later and close to times I might dose. Could mild kratom WD somehow mimic the gaba rebound issues? Isn't that kind of odd? Or do you think this stuff happening means i have permanently damaged my brain?

Also, have you had to quit drinking? And if so, how did you deal with it? The idea of NEVER going to a bar and NEVER being able to relax with wine or beer...I can't imagine that.

What if I actually am able to get off my Klonopin at some point and I stop drinking for a few years? Could it then be possible to drink? Do you really think i should never have ANY alcohol at all?

 

[someguyontheinternet]

Kratom has been associated with incidence of seizures in the literature so that's very possible. Are you able to quit kratom?

 

[Mycophile]

Kratom has been associated with incidence of seizures in the literature so that's very possible. Are you able to quit kratom?

I could (REALLY don't want to), but if you look at the recent posts (I've also gotten some PMs that say more) I really don't think Kratom has much if anything to do with this. I don't think they are seizures, I think they are gluatamate surge/gaba-rebound with akisthisia at times from drinking on Klonopin over the course of years, and the first time, on Phenibut also.

Everyone is telling me I have to quit drinking, and I can't imagine how I'll do it if that's true. I think it would honestly be like losing a friend, or WORSE. I lost a good friend years ago, and right now I'm thinking that's easier. I don't really know if it's a 100% guarantee I have to do this and NEVER drink again, but I'm attempting to accept it. It's only easier at the moment because I am on kratom, and if I do have to quit, then I think Kratom will be of help to me. The problem is, I don't want to get totally dependent on it and do it everyday, and it has its own drawbacks, so I'd attempt to make it like a 2-3...maybe four doses MAX per week kind of thing.

I don't know how anyone quits drinking. I'm gonna need some help...

 

[someguyontheinternet]

Why do you feel the need to drink?

 

[Keif' Richards]

This is definitely one of those questions that I feel is beyond what we should really be answering here on Bluelight. I just worry about discussing such serious medical phenomena with the objective being to answer "is it deadly or not?".

This is probably something you could ask some medical folks over at Reddit or even your doctor. They probably know more about it than we do. I can say I've had seizures from Alcohol and I never suffered serious harm (that I'm aware of). I know plenty of other people who have had literally a dozen seizures in their life(s) either from Alcohol/Benzodiazepines, Stimulant overdose or some other drug-related cause.

That's really the only thing I would want to say on the subject.

 

[Mycophile]

Why do you feel the need to drink?

Umm, because i love how it feels, because it makes other drugs, especially weed, feel a lot better, because there are certain things i like to enjoy while drinking, because it helps with stress, and because it makes socializing easier, although I honestly haven't drank with people for a while.

I'm surprised this is even a question. Did you drink or did you used to? Because I think the answers are usually similar for pretty much any drug that someone likes.

 

[Mycophile]

This is definitely one of those questions that I feel is beyond what we should really be answering here on Bluelight. I just worry about discussing such serious medical phenomena with the objective being to answer "is it deadly or not?".

This is probably something you could ask some medical folks over at Reddit or even your doctor. They probably know more about it than we do. I can say I've had seizures from Alcohol and I never suffered serious harm (that I'm aware of). I know plenty of other people who have had literally a dozen seizures in their life(s) either from Alcohol/Benzodiazepines, Stimulant overdose or some other drug-related cause.

That's really the only thing I would want to say on the subject.

I understand how you feel. But does that mean you want me to stop discussing this with other people on here? Because I think I'm benefitting from talking to some of them. I'd think they can/I can if we want to.

I will probably be asking people on Reddit. Didn't know they had medical forums so thanks. And I am pretty sure I'm going to start going to AA and/or NA. One way or another, I need some support, and it needs to be in person, because at the very least I should be drinking less, and at the most, not at all...which scares me to have to admit to myself. These "episodes", whatever they are, just can't be good. But I have a hard time imagining myself NEVER drinking. I do have a naltrexone prescription for this reason, and the 2 times i did drink on it were completely unenjoyable, so that helps. However, i LOVE Kratom and think that will make it easier to quit/cut down, and you obviously can't take Kratom on Naltrexone, so that is tricky. My birthday is coming up in a couple weeks too, and I don't know what I'll do. My tendency would always be to drink. IF I'm dumb enough to do it, it will be less than usual.

As I and others have mentioned, we don't think these are probably seizures as much as glutamate surge/gaba rebound type activity and akisthisia one time, but who knows for sure.

It's kind of a bit scary hearing you say that many people have had plenty of seizures and did no harm to themselves though, cause that kind of talk almost makes me think it's ok to drink, and I'm starting to think that it probably isn't. For 20 years I had been told it was generally better not to drink on Klonopin, but most people didn't stress it enough in terms of real damage. Now I'm afraid it's probably catching up to me, and I don't want to find out what the long term results could be. But if I go to AA and NA I could get some support there. I don't know. I'm having a very hard time with this, and I can't say I know exactly what's going to happen or what I'm going to do, especially since I've drank twice WITHOUT it happening since the original 2 episodes, but then it did happen last time. I know what the realistic answer is now, that I shouldn't drink, but how on earth to NEVER drink for the rest of my fucking life?!?! I can't even imagine it. I really really don't know...

 

[Antares]

Like I've said, you could just try to cut back on the alcohol if you're that against quitting it. I'm not sure if anyone ever actually said you have to quit completely. But the catastrophization about what we've said about what you should do with your alcohol use, and your frantic questions about how you can manage to quit alcohol completely seriously does point to you having an unhealthy attachment to/reliance on it.

I've never had to quit or intentionally cut back on alcohol, because I've never been a super heavy drinker due to the physical toll just being really huge on me and making me averse to drinking more than once every couple of months (and probably far less amounts than you do when I do drink). Never even had a hangover or any serious effects from it, but I've got some other medical stuff that gets very exacerbated by anything that dehydrates or messes with the autonomic system like alcohol does. I've also never been someone who enjoyed social drinking or bars. I'm the kind of weirdo who puts on music and reads a book in bed when drunk. AA can probably connect you with people who understand your love for it and style/enjoyment of using it better, and they'll have better advice for taking control of your use, whether it's quitting or just drinking less.

I have no idea how long the damage would take to be repaired. If your gaba receptors are what's fucked, it might not ever heal completely. Messing with alcohol or benzos too much seems like it can just make those receptors permanently oversensitive. But also, like... if you can manage to quit alcohol for a few years, you might as well quit forever. Even one year is a long time, you know? Plus, let's look at the best case scenario with the temporary quit thing. Let's say all the damage heals during that time. If you just start drinking again the same way you do now, this issue is just going to come back because the damage is going to build up again.

I think you should probably bring it up to your doctor. It sounds like the worrisome episodes are probably caused by the alcohol (and the mild shivers you got from kratom alone might just be light withdrawal from it, like you suggested, since that is indeed one of the symptoms). So if you don't want to bring up kratom or phenibut, I think that's probably going to be okay. You do have to be honest about the alcohol, and I think it's definitely important to also mention klonopin ends these episodes once it kicks in.

 

[paranoid android]

I had a seizure on coke and was wide awake so no you don't always lose consciousness

 

[Mycophile]

I had a seizure on coke and was wide awake so no you don't always lose consciousness

But I still think this might not have been one and was probably something kind of different.

What were your symptoms? Were they anything like mine? (Drop in temperature, shaking and shivering, akisthisia?) And could you have had the presence of mind to realize what was happening and intentionally go and take some klonopin (TWICE) to make it stop?

 

[paranoid android]

But I still think this might not have been one and was probably something kind of different.

What were your symptoms? Were they anything like mine? (Drop in temperature, shaking and shivering, akisthisia?) And could you have had the presence of mind to realize what was happening and intentionally go and take some klonopin (TWICE) to make it stop?

My symptoms where i lost muscle control and couldnt stop seizing basically. I couldnt get up to walk to take any klonopin

 

[Mycophile]

My symptoms where i lost muscle control and couldnt stop seizing basically. I couldnt get up to walk to take any klonopin

Yeah, you had a seizure. I don't think that's what happened to me. Hope you are ok.

 

[Keif' Richards]

Hey @Mycophile

No, there's nothing wrong with you discussing this sort of stuff here. We are happy to support you with what you're going through. We just have to advise taking everything here with a grain of salt. We don't ever want to be responsible for someone making a decision with their life using advice, that we are not eligible to be giving. If you are asking me about drugs, at this point, I can say I feel pretty comfortable with the accuracy of the advice I give. If we are talking about more complex medical issues, that changes.

There are different forms of seizure, though what people experience in scenarios involving sedative/hypnotic-withdrawal, this is almost always going to be a tonic/clonic seizure or otherwise what most would call a "stereotypical seizure". If you are experiencing a tonic/clonic seizure, then you would typically have very little to no control over your body.

My experience involved a powerful twitching/convulsing of my body for a couple of seconds, gradually stepping up to complete loss of control. For instance, I was sitting up in my bed and I remember the sensation of convulsing and realizing I was falling forward. I had a brief moment where I brought my arms up as if to cushion my fall only to fall forward essentially paralyzed with "t-rex arms" in front of me and I imagine a look of horror on my face. It's just scary losing control of your body, though it's not a traumatic memory looking back on it.

It sounds like what you're describing is more like withdrawal. I will say though that my experience with seizures from Alcohol withdrawal felt almost like a linear progression of shaking/twitching, tachycardia and so on that ended with a seizure that felt like an amplification of all of the symptoms I had already been feeling. I already felt like my body and mind were out of control. The seizure was just the greatest extent of that feeling.

I respect everyone's opinion. My own opinion though is that Alcoholics have an extremely slim chance of every drinking in a non-destructive way after developing a serious addiction in the first place. I've met a lot of Alcoholics and I am one myself. I can tell you honestly that I have never met a serious Alcoholic who simply "figured it out" and reverted to drinking Alcohol normally, happily without serious consequences. I've heard people claim they have it under control plenty of times, though these have always ended in failure and this usually takes a matter of days or sometimes a month at most of trying to limit themselves. Not only that, most Alcoholics I've known who have done the limiting thing describe the experience as nothing short of mental torture. My honest opinion is that once you have this problem, you're either not going to drink Alcohol at all or it's going to be seriously detrimental to your life.

I'm a member of AA and I go to 3-4 meetings a week and this is after a fairly long period of stability with my addiction. I don't know if it's the perfect program or anything. I do know that AA is literally everywhere. It's extremely easy to access, even more so now that meetings are online. You can go to a few in-person meetings and then use the online meetings to fill in the gaps, which is what I usually do. Online meetings are good, but like you, I feel there is a huge value in seeing people face to face. AA is the only program I've ever been through in which nobody was being paid and the program was run solely by Alcoholics/Addicts with no other agenda other than being happy and helping others to do the same. It's such an old cliche, I know, but you have to talk about your feelings. As addicts, we often let stuff rot inside of us for long periods of time until it's too late. AA is a venue for talking about these things and clearing out these feelings before they do damage to you.

If you ever want to talk about the program or anything else, you can always message me! Good luck and keep us posted!

 

[Mycophile]

Hey @Mycophile

No, there's nothing wrong with you discussing this sort of stuff here. We are happy to support you with what you're going through. We just have to advise taking everything here with a grain of salt. We don't ever want to be responsible for someone making a decision with their life using advice, that we are not eligible to be giving. If you are asking me about drugs, at this point, I can say I feel pretty comfortable with the accuracy of the advice I give. If we are talking about more complex medical issues, that changes.

There are different forms of seizure, though what people experience in scenarios involving sedative/hypnotic-withdrawal, this is almost always going to be a tonic/clonic seizure or otherwise what most would call a "stereotypical seizure". If you are experiencing a tonic/clonic seizure, then you would typically have very little to no control over your body.

My experience involved a powerful twitching/convulsing of my body for a couple of seconds, gradually stepping up to complete loss of control. For instance, I was sitting up in my bed and I remember the sensation of convulsing and realizing I was falling forward. I had a brief moment where I brought my arms up as if to cushion my fall only to fall forward essentially paralyzed with "t-rex arms" in front of me and I imagine a look of horror on my face. It's just scary losing control of your body, though it's not a traumatic memory looking back on it.

It sounds like what you're describing is more like withdrawal. I will say though that my experience with seizures from Alcohol withdrawal felt almost like a linear progression of shaking/twitching, tachycardia and so on that ended with a seizure that felt like an amplification of all of the symptoms I had already been feeling. I already felt like my body and mind were out of control. The seizure was just the greatest extent of that feeling.

I respect everyone's opinion. My own opinion though is that Alcoholics have an extremely slim chance of every drinking in a non-destructive way after developing a serious addiction in the first place. I've met a lot of Alcoholics and I am one myself. I can tell you honestly that I have never met a serious Alcoholic who simply "figured it out" and reverted to drinking Alcohol normally, happily without serious consequences. I've heard people claim they have it under control plenty of times, though these have always ended in failure and this usually takes a matter of days or sometimes a month at most of trying to limit themselves. Not only that, most Alcoholics I've known who have done the limiting thing describe the experience as nothing short of mental torture. My honest opinion is that once you have this problem, you're either not going to drink Alcohol at all or it's going to be seriously detrimental to your life.

I'm a member of AA and I go to 3-4 meetings a week and this is after a fairly long period of stability with my addiction. I don't know if it's the perfect program or anything. I do know that AA is literally everywhere. It's extremely easy to access, even more so now that meetings are online. You can go to a few in-person meetings and then use the online meetings to fill in the gaps, which is what I usually do. Online meetings are good, but like you, I feel there is a huge value in seeing people face to face. AA is the only program I've ever been through in which nobody was being paid and the program was run solely by Alcoholics/Addicts with no other agenda other than being happy and helping others to do the same. It's such an old cliche, I know, but you have to talk about your feelings. As addicts, we often let stuff rot inside of us for long periods of time until it's too late. AA is a venue for talking about these things and clearing out these feelings before they do damage to you.

If you ever want to talk about the program or anything else, you can always message me! Good luck and keep us posted!

Thanks man. Yeah, I know what you mean about alcoholics never really being able to control it. I'm a different sort of alcoholic than some cause I only drink like every other weekend, give or take, but when I do it's always binge drinking. Now there is The Sinclair Method which I'm sure you've heard of, and I have a Naltrexone prescription, but 1) I'm already doing damage so I don't think INTENTIONALLY drinking on it in order to force myself to lose the desire is even a good idea 2) I can't imagine myself deciding to take one before drinking period 3) I often have Kratom in my system so i can't due to risk of precipitated WD. But...just saying...some of the few people I've heard who claim they learned to control it were using The Sinclair Method. If i can ever get off prozac I'll try Ibogaine, but that's a big IF.

It's really more just like, I can't imagine myself NEVER EVER drinking alcohol again. I'm trying to accept now (easier since I'm on Kratom...) that at the very least I should never drink alcohol or take drugs like Phenibut, or IF I do drink, it should be as little as possible, but I can't see myself NEVER slipping up. So, I don't know exactly where that leaves me (I guess where most alcoholics are?) I would say that IF I'm ever able to control myself to ANY extent it will be out of fear of these episodes occurring and knowing that the less I drink the less likely they will be to happen. Since I was able to get mildly drunk twice lately without them happening because I drank comparatively less, then I know it's possible, and if I know it's possible I can't say I'd be confident that I'd NEVER do it. If I were to be stupid and still drink sometimes, but it always happened when I had 2 bottles of wine but rarely did when I drink 1...then I'd be lying if I said I'd never drink 1, and I honestly COULD imagine myself getting to that point where I've finished one and thinking about the 2nd one and MAYBE stopping out of fear when I think about what could happen.

I don't know. I'm just rambling. I mean, I don't know how long you have been sober, but did you literally NEVER get drunk or at least have some alcohol since you first decided to quit?

 

[Keif' Richards]

Hey @Mycophile sorry I haven't been available for a few days. I've been a little stressed out related to some work stuff. Anyways...

You're not rambling. It's difficult to put a lot of these complex feelings into words. I know it's taken me years to actually put my finger on certain things in a way that was coherent both to myself and other people.

Alcoholics come in different flavors. There are people who never drink while they are at work, but completely binge every day at 5:00pm sharp. There are folks who only drink on the weekends and such, yet there lives are utterly controlled -> devastated by Alcohol. You see, I do not understand either of these, as they were not my experience. If I'm drinking, I'm drinking around the clock and shake badly in between drinks. My main point here is that all of these varieties of Alcoholism can ruin someone's entire life.

Regarding psychology/emotions, Alcohol was never my drug of choice, Opiates were, predominantly Heroin. Like you, I saw no future in which I would never use Heroin. I knew it was possible. I thought life without my Opiates would be empty, depressing and not worth living. I had always hated my life before I started using Heroin, why would it be any different if I stopped? I ultimately found that this was not the case for me. I was just incredibly deluded mentally and physically as a result of my dependency.

I think these feelings become more deeply entrenched as I would go through the cycle of withdrawal. I internalized the idea that Opiates took me from misery to warmth and safety. As time goes by, it becomes very difficult to imagine a world in which you never again use the drug.

I went through periods of heavy Alcohol use too. As you know, I've experienced withdrawal, seizures and so on. They say Alcohol is one of the most vicious addictions and I absolutely believe this. 3 months of heavy Alcohol abuse would wreck me in a way that a decade of Opiate usage couldn't. Opiate withdrawal was painful, miserable, but Alcohol withdrawal was a nightmare, fear, panic and in my experience, a feeling of imminent doom that is extremely real.

I know some people do return to normal Alcohol consumption. I don't like propagating this sort of story personally, as I feel these cases are rare exceptions to how things actually tend to go. In general, most Alcoholics cannot ever consume Alcohol in a way that is not destructive to their lives.

To answer your last question more specifically, I've been in recovery for a while now, though it was absolutely not a perfect process. I started the process in earnest about 6 years ago. This date was the last time I ever injected Heroin. I relapsed several times in the first 2-3 years. I would often get to about 6 months of sobriety, then I would relapse over something stupid - for instance, I went on a date and was feeling a little nervous so I had a double whiskey. Within a couple of days, I was drinking to blackout, using Cocaine and so on. These relapses would be brief, not lasting more than a few days before I got back on the horse.

Then, about 3 years ago is when I really started hitting it hard. I went to a 12-step meeting every day during this time. I made a commitment to honesty and kindness in my life. I was taking Methadone as well, which helped tremendously.

So the past 3 years have been what I would call a B+ all things considered. I use Cannabis daily for instance, though I don't smoke more than a half ounce at most per month, so it's not a compulsive thing. I definitely did lean on Cannabis though. It was my "drug" that I used whenever the cravings to use Heroin were strong. It made me feel like I was still able to get high, which made the whole process seem less empty and tragic. I use psychedelic drugs on an intermittent, but regular basis. I've taken MDMA in this time.

It's not perfection, but it is enough for myself and my family to be happy. I know today that if I were to go have a couple of shots, I would more than likely lose complete control over myself and initiate a serious relapse. I have boundaries that I know can't be crossed.

Look who's rambling now! Let me know if this explains things

 

[TheUltimateFixx]

Thanks. I REALLY don't want to quit drinking or kratom though. I'm going to sleep so I'll read this tomorrow, but from what little I've described, do you think I'll have to?

And when you had these symptoms, what caused them? Did you get a scan? Do you think I need to tell doctors what I took? Cause I don't want to be banned from pain killers for life since kratom is an opioid. I could get injured cause I have before doing martial arts, and I take Klonopin and don't want to be labeled an addict.

What if I just didn't use kratom and alcohol in close proximity to eachother? Couldn't the kratom increase likelihood of seizure? Some sources say it does. I never had this from booze or kratom or phenibut by themselves, just together.

You absolutely should get checked out and you absolutely DO have to be honest with the doc about your drug use, otherwise he won't be able to make a correct diagnosis. Drug use can both cause or exacerbate symptoms, you gotta fess up if you wanna find out what's really wrong with you.