Do NOT inject

[BloSs0m]

no, becasue chances are higher that if i was to take option b, that he may just do it anyway!

if ur saying take any IV related threads off then thats ridicuclous.. because i may have just learnt those facts about paracetamol overdose from here!

id take option a, because then id tell my mate straight up they could die blah blah blah, and then my mate could make the educated decision. Its not my place to go round telling people what to do.

And BL is not the place to order people around and dictate to them what they should and shouldnt do... we should provide the information for them to make the descision for themselves...

ok runner... when u were little did u feel like a tool when ppl told u what to do, becasue they believed that u were too young to make your own descions.

Dictating to your friends what to do and what not to do, and especially calling them fucking morons isnt the way to keep them as your friends...

having IV related threads is virtually the same as using pill reports... H. A. R. M . R. E. D. U. C. T. I. O. N

id prefer to have the facts told to me straight up adn then i can make my own descion based on reliable information from a reliable source. Rather than having everything spellt out and spoon fed to me as if im a child...

it human nature to rebel when being forced into a situation or opionion. People generally dont like being called fucking morons either.

 

[Runner]

no, becasue chances are higher that if i was to take option b, that he may just do it anyway!

I don't see the logic in your statement. You are saying chances are higher he will do it if you take my option B. But if you take your option A, he will just follow through with it as planned just as all the IV users follow through with it as we speak, do they not? If option B is taken, and the person is told outright that something is not a good idea ALONG with the why its not a good idea, there is a good chance the person will reconsider it.

if ur saying take any IV related threads off then thats ridicuclous.. because i may have just learnt those facts about paracetamol overdose from here!

I've never said that. Only that IV use of *street* drugs should be discouraged altogether. Any other complimentary advice is welcome - the more knowledge is better.

id take option a, because then id tell my mate straight up they could die blah blah blah, and then my mate could make the educated decision. Its not my place to go round telling people what to do.

Have you read my post properly? You'd tell you mate straight up if you took option B too. Except if you took option B, you'd probably saved his life. If you took option A, you would have realised very soon that there is very little one can do in a case of an overdose.

ok runner... when u were little did u feel like a tool when ppl told u what to do, becasue they believed that u were too young to make your own descions.

No, I learned and learned and learned.

Dictating to your friends what to do and what not to do, and especially calling them fucking morons isnt the way to keep them as your friends...

If they can't take it, what are you doing hanging out with them. When such important things are at stake, yes, i'd yell and screem at my best mate if he was to try IVing that little yellow smelly rock I spoke about earlier.

having IV related threads is virtually the same as using pill reports... H. A. R. M . R. E. D. U. C. T. I. O. N

For future reference putting dots after letters means they stand for something. eg. H.R. stands for Harm Reduction or Human Resources

id prefer to have the facts told to me straight up adn then i can make my own descion based on reliable information from a reliable source. Rather than having everything spellt out and spoon fed to me as if im a child...

That's what I do, straight up... look at my previous posts. They have the facts. I don't quite understand the "spoon-fed" bit though...

it human nature to rebel when being forced into a situation or opionion. People generally dont like being called fucking morons either.

It's 17 year olds nature

 

[Trillian]

This is very interestingly coincidental. A friend has recently begun IVing Methylamphetamine, and i had just logged on to BL to do some research into this idea, and hey, stumbled onto this lively little debate.

No, my arguement rests on where you draw the line of things that should be discouraged altogether and things that should be accepted providing care is taken.

Lines are drawn all the time in society. There is a line drawn by statutes relating specifically to the administration of illicit drugs for recreational purposes. And yet, people here find themselves crossing that line time and time again. Debating why people are motivated to act in this fashion, be it crossing boundaries that are generally consensually agreed upon and hence enshrined in law, or behaving in a fashion that violates your own ideas about how people should live, is essentially irrelevant to the concept of harm minimisation. Because it invariably ends in people making damning condemnations about the intellectual capacity of those who do not act as they see fit.

Why exactly do you see yourself as the person who has the right to draw that line?

If you are not arguing about the relative validity of one particular action over another based on higher mortality rate, then it’s unclear to me as to what your argument is actually based on. Right now, it seems to me that you’re arguing for your right to righteous indignation at another persons choices and actions that seem alien to your own way of living. By all means, bitch, moan and condemn, but please don’t try to limit access to information that could potentially make the difference between life and death to someone who has chosen to IV, and to who no amount of argument, persuasion and condemnation will change their mind.

 

[BloSs0m]

ur good.

But do u understand where im coming from?

if u know whats going on, and whats sposed to happen, and what could happen, then u can make your own descision. Rather than being TOLD.

at BL id like to think there is a whole library or two worth of really relevant, accurate and important helpful information. If u were to get rid of all IV related threads then people would even be able to find why not to do it. because, sure its accepted that IVing ur drugs is bad. But ppl still do it, its their choice to though, and id like to think they knew what could happen if things didnt go the right way. And then they chose to continue with somehting that was obviously detrimental to their body.

BL is about telling ppl the facts straight up. so that the risks of all of our habits are reduced. its accepted that the ppl who use these boards are going to/have used/or are contemplating using drugs.

ive accepted that ppl are going to inject no matter what. id rather tho, that i knew there was somewhere where they could find out informtion, without being judged for their desicions, and called a fucking moron.

 

[Fry-d-]

Its important to note that Runner is not saying that all IV is stupid. Just that method of administration for street drugs.

 

[Runner]

^^^ Yes, 100% correct.

Trillian:

Debating why people are motivated to act in this fashion, be it crossing boundaries that are generally consensually agreed upon and hence enshrined in law, or behaving in a fashion that violates your own ideas about how people should live, is essentially irrelevant to the concept of harm minimisation.

That's a well constructed sentence Now how does it relate to what I have said thus far? I don't recall this debate being about "why people are motivated to act in this fashion". You've lost me somewhere.

Why exactly do you see yourself as the person who has the right to draw that line?

I don't. *I* don't draw the line. My arguements do. If they were the arguements that I read somewhere and not come up with myself, nothing would change.

If you are not arguing about the relative validity of one particular action over another based on higher mortality rate, then it’s unclear to me as to what your argument is actually based on.

Read my posts, I don't see how one can miss what my arguement is based upon. I don't see how mortality has anything to do with this debate. But if you like to make it part of it, feel free to show me something along the lines of that IV has in fact NOT caused more meth related deaths then any other forms of administration. I dare you.

Right now, it seems to me that you’re arguing for your right to righteous indignation at another persons choices and actions that seem alien to your own way of living.

How does my way of living relate to this debate? I have 100% no problem with IV. I put no social stigma on the concept of IV. Yes, I have seen my share of IV junkies and yes I still see them. And yes, more so then snorting junkies and smoking junkies. I, however, conceptually have no problem with IV of clean close to pharmaceutical grade drugs. Hey, if I'm in a hospital and in severe pain after an operation, I'd be on the pathedine drip, not eating panadeine forte. Gives a different ring to IV doesn't it?

By all means, bitch, moan and condemn, but please don’t try to limit access to information that could potentially make the difference between life and death to someone who has chosen to IV, and to who no amount of argument, persuasion and condemnation will change their mind.

I don't know where you got the idea of me trying to limit information. Please take the time to read all the relevant posts in DETAIL prior to jumping into such a debate.

And that friend of yours you began your post with... Do you think she is a little uncomfortable with coming in the open and saying, yes, I IV methamphetamine especially in this thread? Ask her that? And also why?

 

[Straylight]

Runner, I'm going to assume from reading (very carefully) your arguments above that you have no moral objection to intravenous administration of substances per se. Your point seems to be that you believe intravenous administration of street drugs is the most dangerous method of use and should therefore be discouraged.

This may well be the case.

However, you're missing the point.

People vary tremendously in their risk-taking behaviour. There are those who take no risks at all; those who think skydiving nude with an iron and ironing-board is a perfectly sane Saturday afternoon behaviour.

But YOU don't have the right to tell these people what constitutes an activity that is too dangerous! As Trillian has said, you're trying to draw a line here. Your statement "I don't draw the line, my arguements (sic) do" is facile as i suspect you realise.

I'll give you an example. I freedive- I love it. Anywhere from 100- 120 ft, sometimes to spearfish, sometimes not. There are athletes who dive a lot deeper than me. Sometimes, despite all the precautions, despite knowing the risks, they die. I don't have the right to tell these people they shouldn't use a weighted sled to extend their depth; they shouldn't hyperventilate to the point of almost-coma; they shouldn't use biofeedback to drop their heartrate to 15 beats a minute.

They know the risks, they take their chances. And if I called them fucking morons, do you think they'd stop diving?

 

[auntiedote]

Runner apart from calling people fucking morons, I agree with the majority of what you're saying. Even if i didn't, i would still applaud you for attempting to put forth an opinion which is probably not popular on BL.

IMO, Harm Reduction should obviously involve allowing drug users access to as much information as possible, but it should also be about trying to dissuade some people from turning to I.V. use of street drugs, where ever we can, before they have a problem. This isn't because I want to control them or preach to them, but because i know IV'ing is not a totally benign activity, and because i CARE about their welfare, whether i know them personally or not.

I believe that it's a rather fatalistic approach to HM to just say "people will go ahead and IV anyway, so let them". Some people obviously will, but some might actually stop and think when they see people like Runner explaining their objections and concerns over the use of IV drugs, and possibly re-think their potential use of drugs in this way.

As far as IV'ing street drugs goes, it is a stupid thing to do. IV'ing heroin was the stupidest thing i've ever done, not just because of the health risks from impurities, but because of the havoc it wreaked in my life. I knew the risks and some of the problems involved but i still went ahead and did it, which is dumb. I don't believe that has anything to do with my level of intelligence or that im stupid in general....it was just a bad decision. It was a bit like Runner's analogy, i took my car car and crashed it into a brick wall at 100mph to see what would happen, when actually i knew what would happen....and that's pretty irresponsible.

I've often read in BL forums, drug users telling other posters that are curious about IV, not to be too concerned about IV use saying stuff like "don't worry, it's just another route of administration". And from a purely practical standpoint it is. But i can't be totally practical about it because it's more complicated than that. I sometimes cringe when i see posters expressing a desire to try it, because i wouldn't want them to go through what i went through. Although i realise not everyone will have a problem, a lot will.

If a friend ever came to me and said that they were going to start IV'ing, I'd definately be upset because chances are, at some stage, i know that they're going to have some kind of emotional or health problem. I couldn't just say to them "well, i know you're going to do it anyway, so here's the how-to-bang-up-FAQ...now go have some fun because it's your right to do so." I'd protest about it first and tell them what an idiot i thought they were being to themselves and try and convince them not to do it. And maybe I probably couldn't stop them in the long run, but at least i could sleep easy knowing that i didn't totally condone their decision to use.

 

[Pleonastic]

I think the key is that it's all about the language. For example:

• Don't say "it will kill you", say "it could kill you".
• Don't say "it will reek havock in your life", say "it could reek havovk in your life if you're not careful".
• Don't say "you should NOT inject street drugs", say "it's not a good idea to inject street drugs because blah blah blah, however if you do (and we don't advise that you do) then ways to reduce possible harm or damage to yourself are to blah blah blah etc etc etc...

Effective harm minimisation is about getting across a good message in a way that people are going to listen and accept it. If nobody will listen because of the way you word an argument, then you might as well argue it to a brick wall. So because we're dealing with real people who (especially on the internet) are our equals, we shouldn't act like we're superior or know more than they do, and we definitely shouldn't act like we're right and they're wrong.

Anyway, good debate - and it's good to see people who passionatly care about an issue. Hopefully this thread will encourage people to think about the consequences of their actions in regards to needles.

Because using needles could be harmful!

 

[SteveElektro]

If a friend ever came to me and said that they were going to start IV'ing, I'd definately be upset because chances are, at some stage, i know that they're going to have some kind of emotional or health problem.

This is bullshit. I'm sorry but IV'ing drugs doesn't necessarily cause health and/or emotional problems. It may, but then so may any other fucking practice.

I think this thread has gone as far as it should.
Runner, you contribute alot to this board and I appreciate your presence, but in this case I think you're failing to recognise the arguments made against you because they don't fit with what you want to say, not because they aren't valid.
I'm glad that bluelight doesn't adopt the same attitude towards this subject that you do, because in the end it's the same worn out approach that the government uses, and it fails miserably.

 

[BigTrancer]

We're all arguing on the same side anyway - the bottom line is none of us want people to die as a result of IV drug use.

Personally, having reflected on this debate for some time, I feel that no single approach will be a panacea. In just the same way that no single method of teaching is applicable to every student, I think that no single way of presenting harm reduction information about intravenous dosing will be applicable for every person. If the goal is to avoid people dying from IV drug use, we need to ensure that users develop and maintain risk-reducing behaviours. That's all there is to it, however, getting that single message through to ALL intravenous drug users requires the message to be tailored to suit the individual. Some people may respond well to hard and patronising words from someone they respect, taking the initiative to reassess their choices or seek more information, but some people will react badly to that approach and pursue their IV drug use in secret. Others may benefit from having as much unbiased information at their disposal, allowing them to make an educated decision by stripping away the mystery and taboo.

Most importantly people MUST be free to ask questions about IV drug use, here at BL. If someone asks "I'm thinking of trying IV heroin, what are the risks?" then telling them "Do NOT inject" literally stonewalls them when they are actually engaged in a harm-reduction thought process. By asking for help, information, or experiences from other IV users, they are clearly involving themselves in the repercussions of their actions -- from that point, understanding the risks, they get to choose for themselves if the risks are worth the perceived benefits. I, for one, am not of the opinion that this decision process should be swayed by anything other than pure facts. The ultimate responsibility for their actions lies with them, not me, and I refuse to make a judgement about their intelligence based on their curiosity for a new drug experience. After all, who am I to tell them that life is more honourable, meaningful, or valuable without IV drug use?

Drink, Drive, Bloody Idiot.
IV Street Drugs, Fucking Moron.

Both of these messages mean well, but IMHO fall well short of making people reconsider their actions. A ham-fisted across-the-board attempt to sway people's decisions away from trying IV drug use is caring, sensible, and will protect your karma... however it is also extremely patronising to phrase it in such a way that attacks the people, rather than their decision. If someone is prepared to take the child-role and be talked down to, this approach might work... but in my opinion adults tend to respond emotively to parent-like patronising, especially when they feel that, as adults, they should be allowed to make their OWN decisions in life, regardless of the consequences. Society already tries hard enough to protect people, there are laws against nearly everything discussed in this thread, and the information we're talking about is hidden from the majority of the population. By providing safe injecting information we do not undermine the protection that society has put in place, but rather aim to get through to the people who have already reached a mental stage equivalent to 'ok, fuck social stigma, fuck the laws, i'm interested in shooting up, so i'm gonna do it no matter how many people, police, drug campaigners, ex-addicts or people on the internet tell me not to'. If we say "Do NOT inject" then we disappear into the background noise just the same as everyone else who has already told them not to inject. That's not harm reduction, it's repetition.

BigTrancer

 

[Runner]

Well, it seems as though most of what could be said, has been said. I could again put forward a rebuttal to a few things that have come up but I will leave it. I think this thread has achieved a lot judging by the amount of views it got in the short period of time.

This was my initial goal - to generated interest and attract attention to the issue. And yes, I have perhaps used a fairly unorthodox approach, purposly coming across in a slightly offensive way.

Thanks to all contributors, including my opponents

 

[shrredda]

Well Steve Elektro if you go around notifying people that their opinions are bullshit, then I shudder to think what advise you would give to a person that is thinking of iv-ing.

I've been a drug user since the seventies. I have met many many drug users. Some of these people have had problems with their drug of choice, but of all the people that I have known that have injected , I cant think of one that didnt have some sort of complication in their life because of it.

My partner is an ex iv heroin user, and that brought with it a world of pain. Even after being clean for nearly 15 years the baggage is still painful for her, and those around her.

I think that the crux of problem with injecting is, as Runner has said, that you dont know what is in the substance that you are banging but I would go one step further and say that the type of drug that is usually injected has something to do with the problems encountered.

IMO Heroin, especially, is in a class of its own. I believe that a large percentage of Heroin users are doing the drug for different reasons than people using most other drugs.

I have always used drugs recreationally, for fun. Now many Heroin users that I have met dont do that. They use to escape their life, essentially because they dont like it. Now I am not saying that there isnt an element of that in taking drugs for fun and recreation because there is, but usually when the drug wears off ya get on with your life.

I cant see why people on the board arent able to say that you are stupid to shoot up. Its only a matter of opinion. I think that base jumpers are stupid to do what they do, not unintelligent, stupid because of the obvious dangers involved. Thats just me, my opinion.

All I'm saying is that this is a Forum, a place of debate, where all opinions should be heard by the person seeking advise or information. Without opinionated sledging of other another persons opinion, so that the person seeking the info can get all sides of the subject regardless of how inappropriate some of us feel that opinion is.

Otherwise we might as well turn Bluelight into an Erowid, that just gives info out about drugs, just text, no personal input.

A mate of mines son came to me a couple of years ago and told me that he was thinking of trying smack. I told him all the cliched stuff about safety and stuff, and then I told him that I thought that anyone that still tried it after hearing what I had just said, was silly. My opinion.

We can say that this sort of thing is preachy or whatever, maybe it is, my parents were full of cliches and preaching when I was a boy but I realise now that a lot of what they said was true non the less.

Its true that many will go the injectable path regardless, but I dont think that it is as productive to just give those people just info and no opinion.

I dont think that we should all come in here and just say, "your opinion is bullshit", thats not debate thats being one eyed or opinionated.

I dont believe Steve Elektro that if your son or daughter came to you asking for advise or information about shooting up,that you would handle it the same way as if they were asking you about taking an E or smoking dope. In the same way that you react would be different if they came to you asking for advise about having a tattoo of their choice on their upper arm or having one on their forehead.

Like I said, I think that opiates are a whole different ball game, and coincidently injecting is the usual method of administration. Only a small percentage of drug users do opiates, and I dont think thats because it ' dont feel good'........I think it is because it is so much more dangerous on so many levels.

Also...I cant see any opinion on this thread that is same approach as the government. I agree with a little of the governments attitudes...not much but some. I am no fan of the government generally..or the churches, but be fair nearlly all the programs in place in our society to help drug abusers are set up or funded by the church or the government.

Thats taxpayers money...my money.

Yes we have the right to do what we want to our bodies, but we also have a responsibility to the community in general to not put ourselves in a situation where we are a drain on society. We also have a responsibility to our friends and family, to not fuck with their lives through our lust to feel good.

I cant say that I have always been able to do that, I have hurt people around me through my drug use in the past, and that is wrong. Thankfully that was a long time ago. I now try to make decisions and think ahead, and not take stupid risks.....of course IMO...

I know that some of the younger Bl'ers here have probably never had some one that they are close to die or be totally fucked over by drugs. I have. The most recent only a few months ago.

He is dead, gone forever, and I miss him. I am also angry at him for putting me through all the things that one goes through after a death, real angry. His mother will never recover completely.

All this cos he took a huge risk........stupidly......IMO

I believe if you dont tell give someone your opinion you aint giving them enough information. I didnt give my mate that opinion. It prolly wouldnt have made a difference but I wish that I had anyway.

For John

 

[Runner]

Yes we have the right to do what we want to our bodies, but we also have a responsibility to the community in general to not put ourselves in a situation where we are a drain on society. We also have a responsibility to our friends and family, to not fuck with their lives through our lust to feel good.

Great point. I am surprised no one has brought this up before. I can already see someone saying that the same rehab centres/government funded programs (are shooting galleries also funded by the govt?) etc. apply EQUALLY to drug abusers who use different means of administration. I'd die to see a statistic to prove that.

I guess this point only vaguely relates to the original topic of substandard quality of drugs for injection and the health risks involved, but nonetheless, this is very good food for thought.

 

[apollo]

Fucking brilliant post there BT. Hit the nail on the head.

 

[auntiedote]

I feel that no single approach will be a panacea....

Exactly....i'm not sure about the others but that was my motivation for posting in the first place.



Shrredda....an eloquent and insightful post

 

[SteveElektro]

Well cry me a fucking river....
shrredda, this thread was about IV, not opiate related problems. I too have had my life touched by heroin, I first shot smack at the age of 13 and have a family history of heroin addiction. (I am not a regular opiate user myself these days though). I've had to deal with shit half of you probably couldn't imagine, and at an age that would make you cry. That said, I don't see the point in feeling sorry for myself or deluding myself by blaming needles.
Anyway, this thread is not about problems specific to the use of heroin, it is about problems caused by IV'ing itself.

 

[Runner]

Since we are on the topic of Heroin, which just happens to be the drug that is by far the most commonly IVed...

Due to the rising popularity of meth in Australia and its ease of manufacture, the imports of Heroin have dropped dramatically. This is also to do with the fact that you need to grow a shitload of poppies to make Heroin. I don't have a link, but I read it on some government site some time ago.

There is of course still demand, so alternate ways are found to manufacture Heroin. The simplest way involves something along the lines of boiling morphine containing pills with acetic anhydride in a pot with a lid as a makeshift condenser. The end product, as one might imagine, is very far from pure Heroin. Besides the chemical impurities, even if one uses a filter to load the rig, tiny particles that could only be cleaned up with activated carbon and such will still get into the blood stream...forever...

On a side note, it must be said that in controlled conditions, clean Heroin is a drug that has very few damaging effects on the body. Its main physical danger is overdose and *physical* dependence.

 

[banga]

agreed...shootin' shit is for fools

i couldn't agree more with the belief that shooting street grade speed/smack is for fools.

if they, the drugs, were made under IDEAL conditions then it wouldn't be as bad, but they ain't. also, they have been pissed on by many a greedy hand before they end up straight into users bodies.

as well, people that IV, don't respect their bodies....but respect the drug more IMHO.

finally, the threshold into drug abuse is definitely crossed by IV'ing.

DON'T SHOOT SHIT PEEPS!

respect ya body....its the only one ya get!

 

[SteveElektro]

Thanks banga, your wise words have made me change my ways forever 8(