Dissociatives Dissociative-induced Tinnitus

[JackARoe]

Apparently in some Mahayana Buddhist literature, specifically the Surangama Sutra, internal sound is used as meditation aid. Nada meditation seems to be primarily about hallucinated music, but it can be applied to tinnitus as well. Pretty whack that some people seem to actively evoke tinnitus in themselves just so they can play around with the otherworldly "silvery shimmering", the infinitely continuous form of which reminds them of cosmic essence. Focus on it enough and, just like how a screen is the persistent presence underlying the cinema image, the persistent presence of crystalline microharmonics starts feelings like it underlies a projected unreality, in contrast to which the yet deeper underlying reality of voidness can more readily be experienced.

I knew this thread would get interesting with some good minds on the topic. That is fascinating. Makes me think the notion of tinnitus is more than a hissing in the ear. Not sure how wack it is. I mean we as humans like to close our eyes and see visuals (well at least us druggies). Never is it complete total darkness behind the eyes. It seems the static of the physical plane covers up complete silence or darkness. I have however experienced complete silence once on a come up of a DMT trip. Blasted right past the static into what I would imagine a rocket going into space would sound like. Out of the atmosphere and static is silence and darkness.

I needed to look into Surangama Sutra. So happy that you CT would stumble on this. It all ties in somehow. Mind over matter. Ignoring the static as well as some supplements to help the physical angle. And then there is hallucinated music.... Awesome.

 

[Chris Timothy]

I had a hunch you'd dig it.

But the fact I'm sharing doesn't mean I'm completely on board. I eventually found an interesting take sourced from the ancients, but there are many plain delusional ones which I've had to wade through. Because a fair share of people are evidently driven crazy by it, and put up acceptance as a front. One blogger looked at a tinnitus forum, one where people share their location, and noticed that the most avid acceptance proponents posted at ridiculous hours deep into the night.. not exactly what you expect from people who supposedly aren't kept awake by continuous, grave discomfort.

I'm also not sure how I feel about monks stating that it's not tinnitus because it's primarily a mental phenomenon.. I don't recall exactly how the argument was wangled but it reminded me of when I heard an Indian doctor tell a Westerner he only had hepatitis because he believed he had a liver. Cherry on top was that the guy contracted it while roaming India in search for spiritual teachings.. I suppose he got what he was looking for. Yeah no I'm not gonna contort my intellect until I can accept that I only have tinnitus because I believe I have ears. Just.. no. I admit it's fascinating to witness how in arguments Indians sometimes let go of logic altogether and just aim to get others in a certain mindstate by whatever means. Krishnamurti does an impressive job at that, for instance. But if I myself am the object of transformation, and am looking for a trick to deploy over and over, then it needs some more intellectual integrity, some more pandering to Western sensibility. I can't just pop a valve and deflate my prefrontal cortex so the woo fits in.


Anyway, very good point about visual static. That's one we do tend to like, isn't it? Fun fact: even the psychedelic fractals are arguably static. It's just that when more or less linearly evoked throughout the brain layers on the macro level it experientially comes out as fractals because of the neuronal interconnectedness on the micro level. It's a model I've seen one paper throw some math at, at least.

Though an easier way to explain fractals is that the mental loop of awareness gets tightened:


(4 minute vid)


So this swirliness isn't necessarily indicative of some magical realm. It's just a "noisy" revelation of a basic mechanism of how mind works.

Which is even cooler if you ask me!

 

[pupnik]

love the mouse and scissors trails in that video,
the visible lag suggests also that this is like frame stacking.

temporal effects are happening in the system that buffer previous orientations producing a composite frame containing content from now that still has fresh content from before.

 

[Mjäll]

I know some people get tinnitus instead of that wooshy washy spiral morphing sound on N2O. Is that the same type of thing, you reckon?

 

[Chris Timothy]

love the mouse and scissors trails in that video,
the visible lag suggests also that this is like frame stacking.

temporal effects are happening in the system that buffer previous orientations producing a composite frame containing content from now that still has fresh content from before.

Indeed. Frame stacking is a good metaphor. In EEGs of the brain they see certain dips in the pattern that could function as shutter. Not enough amplitude distinguishing between "frame" and "shutter", and consciousness disappears. Sleep more closely resembles the randomness of white noise.

I know some people get tinnitus instead of that wooshy washy spiral morphing sound on N2O. Is that the same type of thing, you reckon?

I'm not sure, gases are weird.. so weird that they're used as argument for a currently cutting-edge model of consciousness. Since they're so small and invasive they seem to have closer access to the level of the brain where quantum effects presumably play a role. So there's an unknown factor here.. but yeah nitrous does mess with ion channels, and overuse could lead to dissociative glutamate rebound, two ways the inner ear can get directly nudged into overdrive, despite having nothing to do with the 3-HO-PCP's KOR activation. Talking of which, for some people a strong enough orgasm is enough to get the ears ringing. Then it's just dynorphins activating the KOR combined with elevated blood pressure, I think. Many roads lead to rOMe.

But it's interesting if some people indeed get tinnitus instead of the normal effect. I'd expect tinnitus effects to be added on top. This could tell us something about the nature of the nitrous sound warp.


Edit: oh apparently nitrous does work on KOR, I stand corrected.

 

[pupnik]

not quantum effects at all, it is a similar intoxication but via a different channel - anoxia.
frame stacking in the brain occurs when the thalamo-cortical loop is extended beyond the usual 3 cycles (less than 1/4 second).
this can be induced with cortical synaptic enhancement at the 5ht (serotonin type) agonists or by
emotion which is effected by the limbic system that surrounds the thalamus.
the anoxia of NO2 is likely mediated by the limbic system, but you still get the same effect of time dilation and sensory enhancement/tracers/trails etc.

 

[Mjäll]

not quantum effects at all, it is a similar intoxication but via a different channel - anoxia.
frame stacking in the brain occurs when the thalamo-cortical loop is extended beyond the usual 3 cycles (less than 1/4 second).
this can be induced with cortical synaptic enhancement at the 5ht (serotonin type) agonists or by
emotion which is effected by the limbic system that surrounds the thalamus.
the anoxia of NO2 is likely mediated by the limbic system, but you still get the same effect of time dilation and sensory enhancement/tracers/trails etc.

I'm pretty sure it's an NMDA antagonist and not just anoxia? I get that there may be some anoxia component at cellular level even when breathing between the tokes, but most sources refer to the anaesthesia as NMDA antagonism based. Do you think medical professionals would use anoxia for anaesthesia? Maybe they would, but NMDA antagonism sounds more likely.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

I've had some level of tinnitus since I was a child, I was born with it, but it was never too bad.

4 months ago when I had my serotonin syndrome episode my tinnitus became alarmingly worse. Extremely loud. I could hear it even in loud environments, it wasn't subtle anymore. I could hear it over the TV and music. When I had covid a few weeks into it, it got even worse... I questioned if I had hearing damage.

Very distressing thinking it might be permanently that loud.

It's been a few months now and in the last week I've noticed it's starting to fade, at least back down to what it used to be which is a lot more manageable.

I vaped some THC-O last night and it became really loud again, but calmed down this morning.

Anyways, my new level of tinnitus seems to be related to serotonergic damage (my guess at least).

 

[pupnik]

I'm pretty sure it's an NMDA antagonist and not just anoxia? I get that there may be some anoxia component at cellular level even when breathing between the tokes, but most sources refer to the anaesthesia as NMDA antagonism based. Do you think medical professionals would use anoxia for anaesthesia? Maybe they would, but NMDA antagonism sounds more likely.

NMDA is definitely part of the overall neural conduction choreography, and anoxia is not part of most modern anaesthesia, but all those methods do involve thalamo-cortical loop extension and the blackout that ensues when the loops exhaust the neurons' abilities to keep on looping.
I have found no compelling proposals for quantum effects in the mind, although a cornucopia of such proposals are published each week with no experimental basis.

 

[Chris Timothy]

I've had some level of tinnitus since I was a child, I was born with it, but it was never too bad.

4 months ago when I had my serotonin syndrome episode my tinnitus became alarmingly worse. Extremely loud. I could hear it even in loud environments, it wasn't subtle anymore. I could hear it over the TV and music. When I had covid a few weeks into it, it got even worse... I questioned if I had hearing damage.

Very distressing thinking it might be permanently that loud.

It's been a few months now and in the last week I've noticed it's starting to fade, at least back down to what it used to be which is a lot more manageable.

I vaped some THC-O last night and it became really loud again, but calmed down this morning.

Anyways, my new level of tinnitus seems to be related to serotonergic damage (my guess at least).

I feel ya. Weed and serotonergics mess up my ears too. Now, a year and a half later I seem to be able to reasonably tolerate LSD microdosing, but I'm in no rush to start chemically prodding everything again. Noise hangovers aren't fun.

NMDA is definitely part of the overall neural conduction choreography, and anoxia is not part of most modern anaesthesia, but all those methods do involve thalamo-cortical loop extension and the blackout that ensues when the loops exhaust the neurons' abilities to keep on looping.
I have found no compelling proposals for quantum effects in the mind, although a cornucopia of such proposals are published each week with no experimental basis.

I don't know.. direct disruption of microtubule oscillation, which probably quantum-cohere, makes a lot more sense to me than anoxia in the limbic system, which would be plain dangerous a mechanism. But yes, these are mere hypotheses yet to be falsified, we can only argue so much.