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Dissociative effects of DXM and pharmacology

R

Renald

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Jul 8, 2015
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Shouldnt it be, that after somebody used DXM in large (3-4 plateau) dose, the dissociation came after a long delay, when psychedelic its effects are far away from its maximum? I never used DXM in large dose, so cant say it from personal experience. but this simple metabolism scheme tells me it should be that way. DXO is at maximum when DXM maximum is far away from its maximum.

Your thoughts and scientific facts to continue this thread are welcome!

PS. Mods, please, add this image to thread, I am unable to do it - https://imgur.com/a/UZTDn
UZTDn



UZTDn
 
I always thought DXM is responsible for hallucinogenic effects in DXM-DXO, and DXO is ketamine-like dissociative. Maybe I used wrong word, not psychedelic, but hallucinogenic effects. Are they modulated more by DXM or DXO?
I will try to get fulltexts of articles and read them, thank you for an advice!
 
No problem. :) The idea that the hallucinogenic effects of DXM are separate from its dissociative effects probably comes from the days during which DXM was practically the only dissociative any active drug user had tried, thus making it far harder to understand, compounded further by the lack of scientific research in that area. No current information I have stumbled upon nor any experiences I have had would suggest that there is any separation; DXO seems likely to produce most of the dissociative effects of DXM, and therefore it likely produces most of the hallucinogenic effects as well.

Ketamine-like dissociatives are "psychedelic" in nature. There are several studies such as this recent one which show that ketamine and other dissociatives have broadly comparable effects to psychedelics on brain activity, from electrical activity, to metabolic hyperfrontality, to cortical pyramidal neuron excitation, and so on. Speaking from personal experience with a handful of dissociatives (DXM, nitrous oxide, memantine, ketamine, methoxetamine, 2'-Oxo-PCE) I can also say that they all produce varying psychedelic-like effects, including hallucinations and ego loss and creative analytical states and so on. They also produce effects that are not psychedelic, like alcohol-like visual disturbances and disinhibition, but those differences don't detract from the similarities.

DXM and DXO are both NMDA receptor antagonists, so they may both contribute some dissociative-psychedelic effects, especially with very high dosages, but largely, given that DXM readily metabolizes into DXO and DXO is much more potent as a NMDA receptor antagonist, it is again likely pretty much all the DXO producing the effects most of the time. DXM itself doesn't seem to add much to the experience from what I've seen so far.
 
So when considering a dose regime how does one achieve maximum DXO : DXM?
Taking it all at once or separating the dose?
 
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My theoretical understanding of DXM metabolism tells me instant high dosing would result in more "psychedelic" experience, and constant low dosing over a long period should give you more a dissociative effect. But there are not only serotonin and NMDA receptors, which are being hit by DXM/DXO, there are sigma receptors also, and I still lack understanding of subjective effects of sigmaergic activity.

I used nitrous, ketamine, MXE, phenidines, memantine and would say, that I prefer to be dissociated. Energetic physical first plateau of DXM is nice, but it is not what I try to achieve. I am trying to analyse the state of dissociation by practical means, trying to produce this state on myself. As I have an access only to memantine (quite a strange NMDA antagonist) and nitrous (not very selective at NMDA), the best way is to try experimenting with DXM.
 
Im not well versed in this metabolism stuff but heres my understanding, please correct me if im wrong:

dxm has a higher affinity for serotonin and dxo for nmda ...
and
dxm is converted to dxo and other metabolites (3mm?), so a second or repeated doses would result in less dxm being metabolized and thus higher concentrations of dxm.

If the above is true, dosing all at once should result in more dxo and thus more dissociation when compared to separating the dose
 
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