Diphenidine - Experienced - ~300mg

[leftbrane]

Male, 25 YoA, 5'11'', medium build. Takes venlafaxine, pregabalin and mirtazapine, though missed doses day before and on day of experiment. Familiar setting, lying in bed listening to downtempo and ambient psytrance. In a positive frame of mind with the fixed aim of getting to know this compound. I have no scales (or rather no 3*A batteries), so doses should be taken with a pinch of salt, so to speak. That said, I'm well versed in eyebaling substances and feel relatively comfortable doing so in the 50mg+ range, so make of that what you will.​

T+15 MINUTES - Having insufflated an eye-balled dose of what would be considered small (some ~50mg) by users of diphenidine, I feel pretty straight and coherent. There's a shift in my thinking to the introspective (though that's likely because I'm consciously analysing myself for signs of the substance' effects) and a wobble in my peripheral vision.

T+30 – I'm much more lost in the subtleties of Phobium's mixes than usual, but aside from some vague wonkiness and an odd sense of stimulation there's nothing, though NMDA activity is in full effect. Heart rate at a steady 120, peripheral vascular system functioning normally, decide to take this up a notch as “Another Orbit Around the Sun” comes on. I insufflate ~100mg

T+45 WOW, that worked. Bronchodilative effects typical of arylcyclohexamines strongly in effect. Bye bye for now.

T+60 No hole yet, though wonkiness in full effect. This substance doesn't appear to have that dark, manic edge that MXE did and which left me feeling cold, even antipathetic towards it (MXE, that is... and life itself, while I was on it). The diphenidine experience seems more scattered and open to suggestion – too open to suggestion, my instincts say. Having experienced its baseline anaesthesia I sense a temptress in this compound; a temptress with claws. That translates into plain English as 'things could get very messy'. I find it similar to MXE in that department, though with less dark ideation.

The form in which I have this diphenidine doesn't appear to be as water soluble as (my reference point for all ACHs) ketamine hcl, so takes much longer to come on. With this is in mind, caution would be advisable when dosing, as it might be tempting to up the dose because the longer duration of absorption implies overall lower peak plasma concentrations, resulting in the potential for overdose in a committed hole-fiend. Perhaps we'll just have to resign ourselves to the fact that diphenidine is not accommodated well intranasally.

T+90 Uh-oh. Turns out this diphenidine vaporises beautifully and life becomes very strange very quickly as I inhale some ~100mg, though onset not as immediate as one would expect from such a direct route of administration. It -builds over the space of several minutes and takes me to the very edge of full-on anaesthesia. I sublingually ingest 2mg of etizolam in the hope of allaying discomfort and any potential neurotoxicity... and in preparation of a dive off the cliffs. Another ~100mg vaped.

T+120 Seems I've landed intact. Vaporisation not recommended as salbutamol had to be administered to allay an asthmatic effect. I'm not asthmatic, but I am hypersensitive to allergens. I received the salbutamol after a hospital visit having vaped 5-MeO-DMT some days prior at the peak of a bronchoconsrtrictive crisis that'd lasted as long. They fitted me with a salbutamol nebulising mask and injected me with corticosteroids and told me that if I carried on smoking I'd have COPD by the time I was forty. I was then handed a prescription for a strong dose of steroids and told to fuck off. Love the British NHS – does what it says on the tin.

Vaping it is definitely the most effective route of administration I've tried, but vaporising/oxidizing an untested compound (not to mention any scary byproducts from the manufacturing process) is risky business, not just in the case of the scenario above but also because of the potential carcinogens and other nasties you may inhale. If you do go ahead with vaping it have a nebuliser, sitter and phone handy.

Happy drugging.

 

[crOOk]

Vaporisation not recommended as salbutamol had to be administered to allay an asthmatic effect. I'm not asthmatic, but I am hypersensitive to allergens. I received the salbutamol after a hospital visit having vaped 5-MeO-DMT some days prior at the peak of a bronchoconsrtrictive crisis that'd lasted as long. They fitted me with a salbutamol nebulising mask and injected me with corticosteroids and told me that if I carried on smoking I'd have COPD by the time I was forty. I was then handed a prescription for a strong dose of steroids and told to fuck off.

Wow you sure like smoking your drugs, eh? As a measure of harm reduction I'd strongly urge you to learn how to perform clean IV injections and maybe get some batteries.

Other than that, thanks a lot for the report. Real shame no one replied after you went through the trouble of creating an account to post this. Imho the title should be edited so it accurately represents that you did not consume 300mg at once. Some people will just see the thread title and think that's a good dose for them.

 

[AlphaOdure]

Great report, very detailed and very precise.

I have some questions for you if you don't mind leftbrane?

1. Is this experience something worth repeating for you?
   -Either at same dosages or at lower/higher dosages?
   -Same ROA or a different one?
2. Where would you gauge your typical dosage of diphenidine for just ONE experience via oral ROA?
   -Both during height of your NMDAr tolerance & periods of zero tolerance (when first binging perhaps?)
   -is 50-100mg (ORAL) sufficient for ONE experience w/o any recent tolerance being built up?
3. Does tolerance to dissociative/NMDAr antagonist's seem to stick with you even after periods of 1+ month(s)
4. Would your opinion of diphenidine be that of a positive one relative to 3-methoxy-phencyclidine/PCP; or 5-methoxy-pcp (if applicable)?
   -How would you compare diphenidine to 3-meo-pcp (if applicable)?
5. How would you rank diphenidine among all the dissociatives/NMDAr antagonists you've done (& please list each NMDAr of course duhh 8) )?
   -Especially in relation to ketamine and/or ketamine analogs if applicable?
6. Do you consider diphenidine a useful, recreational substance?

I'm looking for something to replace my 2g 3-MeO-PCP stash which was eaten up ravaging wolves
Now, these wolves must be kept at bay, lest my family be eaten by them
Such a pity 3-methoxy-phencyclidine is just TOO damn expensive

 

[crOOk]

Great report, very detailed and very precise.

I have some questions for you if you don't mind leftbrane?

1. Is this experience something worth repeating for you?
   -Either at same dosages or at lower/higher dosages?
   -Same ROA or a different one?
2. Where would you gauge your typical dosage of diphenidine for just ONE experience via oral ROA?
   -Both during height of your NMDAr tolerance & periods of zero tolerance (when first binging perhaps?)
   -is 50-100mg (ORAL) sufficient for ONE experience w/o any recent tolerance being built up?
3. Does tolerance to dissociative/NMDAr antagonist's seem to stick with you even after periods of 1+ month(s)
4. Would your opinion of diphenidine be that of a positive one relative to 3-methoxy-phencyclidine/PCP; or 5-methoxy-pcp (if applicable)?
   -How would you compare diphenidine to 3-meo-pcp (if applicable)?
5. How would you rank diphenidine among all the dissociatives/NMDAr antagonists you've done (& please list each NMDAr of course duhh 8) )?
   -Especially in relation to ketamine and/or ketamine analogs if applicable?
6. Do you consider diphenidine a useful, recreational substance?

I'm looking for something to replace my 2g 3-MeO-PCP stash which was eaten up ravaging wolves
Now, these wolves must be kept at bay, lest my family be eaten by them
Such a pity 3-methoxy-phencyclidine is just TOO damn expensive

Well if you don't mind I will answer a few of your questions. You should also find most questions answered in the big and dandy thread.

1. To me diphenidine is highly pleasurable and well worth repeating.
2. Mine would be around 230mg without tolerance. However this dosage will lead to a blackout for most people and the depersonalization/psychotomimetic effects might be perceived as very uncomfortable for many people. I would say 150mg is an ideal dose for most people experienced with dissociatives to get a good idea of the full range of effects, 50-100mg will most definitely not do so unless you are unusually sensitive.
3. Dosage wise there has been no long term tolerance throughout the past 10 years of dissociative years. However the effects do change and one becomes more acclimatized to them. 250mg racemic ketamine insufflated will never have the profound effect on me that it had the first time around, but neither will 300mg or 400mg. 300mg or 400mg would however cause a blackout. The same goes for other ROA's (im,iv) and other dissociatives.
I always use my dissociatives without any acute tolerance these days, that is with at least a month break in between experiences (there have been exceptions to this ofc, but I generally keep my breaks much longer). That being said, I can still IV 100mg MXE or s-ketamine and be underwhelmed by them. Still increasing the dosage won't fix that, so I wouldn't call it a tolerance without further explaining what's going on there.
3. & 4. I skipped 3-MeO-PCP, but it would be very positive compared to other "winning" dissociatives like PCP or ketamine (my former favourites). At times I was convinced diphenidine blows them all away, but since they're all very different let's just say, I've included it into my top ranking dissociatives (MXE would not be in that list btw :D ). Btw I would most closely compare it to PCP.
However, if you are seeking a k hole type experience you will be disappointed, there are no propioceptive pseudohallucinations and it won't visually shut you off from your surroundings either. The travelling happens mostly in your mind with this one.
6. I can't say it had any use for me so far, but it's been extremely interesting nonetheless. Recreational yes.

From what I have heard about 3-MeO-PCP, you might actually enjoy this one, but best judge for yourself.

 

[AlphaOdure]

I skipped 3-MeO-PCP, but it would be very positive compared to other "winning" dissociatives like PCP or ketamine (my former favourites).

I've never had the chance to try true phencyclidine. ketamine a hand full of times, never fully "holed" though--was just an alien-esk, sorta psychedelia.

3-MeO-PCP is a gem. Aside from one experience where apparently its dopaminergic effects took over & made me manic for a bout 4 hours, w/ retrograde amnesia. It seems to "hole" of any sorts, you'e getting manic/possible psychotic reactions (again, i have no memory during these 4 hrs aside from pissed off friends who wouldn't tell me what i was doing or how I was acting) But this was a dosing mistake, sucked up the full 40mg into my rig on accident (VERY water-soluble; he salt version at least); thought was being taken out of a 10mg one dose zinger; but my 40mg looked like a 10mg after some of the permanent marker came off. The mania/possible-psychosis was over in ~4 hours, but I was still mostly anesthetized--believe I took 20mg etizolam (i have a high tolerance) & 5g of phenibut. but i was still dissociated as hell, till the point where i still had minor retrograde amnesia, w/ only remembering bits & pieces. So I couldn't tell you if there is an area to "hole" per se w/o getting major manic, serotonergic & dopaminergic pharmacodynamics.

Never experienced mania other than that time (explained above); but doses are kept ~12-25mg IM/subcutaneous. Also noticed definitive opioidergic effects (as it is a mu-opioid agonist), but in a weirder way. Probably b/c the opioid activity is being mixed w/ NMDAr antagonism (even w/ being on 4mg/day buprenorphine, i still felt the 3meo's mu-opioid receptor agonism.**)... Anyway, 3-meo-pcp also has a nice a nice glow of euphoria (guessing from being a SERT & dopaminergic?)--then slowly manifesting is its NMDAr antagonism--sloowly takes hold.

**Was 4 days short once before my next buprenorphine refill. i had NOTHING. I IM'd 3-MeO-PCP 1-2x a day & kept the individual straight: no diarrhea; no physical w/d, soreness, no yawning! Although I did have to venture to 30mg towards day 4 as my NMDAr antagonist tolerance was getting up there. Would have to do at night; when it wears off, i crash & sleep like a rock (along w/ 5-10mg etizolam); so the next day sleep was needed.


Also, if focusing on tasks/items, this can induce a very confusing state after T+1.00 IM/subcutaneous. Which 3meo sometimes tends to force me to do--b/c it makes me outgoing on the come up, almost like a very tiny bit of weirdish-MDMA/MDA-stereoisomer. I suggest (or at least I do this..) to everything setup- the bowl(s) packed, cigarettes rolled, TV on auto-save for all my shows to come up automatically so i don't have to fuck w/ the remote, music list setup on your computer/tablet/ipod so you just have press 'play', etc etc. Otherwise? Again, for me? I end up wasting the dissociative-value & end up stumbling around not knowing my head from my ass. At lower doses; 4-6mg of IM/subcutaneous is a totally different substance; almost an antidepressant, not stimulatory in anyway (at this dose) like traditional like amphetamines, cathinones, piperazines . BUT, w/ definite mood lift; as i said, i can only compare it to low-doses of MDMA or MDA's stereoisomer w/ a creeping opioidergic effect; & very very minor NMDAr antagonism at 4-6mg IM/sub. Around 8-12mg you start heading into comfy dissociation.. heavier dissociation (w/o any dark mania as described w/ MXE; just intense) at 15-25mg.

I'm sure you seasoned dissociative-trippers know this: but i reiterate, I highly recommend setting up everything you need before your trip. Make sure your set/setting is proper where you don't have a lot of items to deal w/ or distractions; you can get HIGHLY confused (i poured out 100mg of 4-Ho-MiPT on my carpet on accident & dropped near 500mg of 3meo on accident b/c i just *HAD* to fuck around w/ my kit when when peaking at 12mg IM'd. Then i wasn't able to recognize what objects were, destroyed half my oral syringes & a few IM rigs on accident & all but one of my clean points).. you can get in that confused state easily. But that was an extremely enjoyable experience, don't get me wrong--but it took away from the trip until i was able to just set all my shit aside & enjoy the rest of my trip in my recliner. At 20-25mg I will sort of "hole" if i have zero distraction--kind of, but could come out of it at will. Its a fine line b/c of that one manic episode that'll try holing again, i'll likely start at 10mg & go up by 1mg increments. Plus, i've heard this is a hard one to hole one. However, 3meo is a fucking gem w/ its own unique properties, hole or not!

Unfortunately, 3-MeO-PCP dosages needed for that sweet spot of pre-anesthesia levels seem to induce too much SERT and/or dopaminergic activity, again i'm biased b/c of my one manic episode; but every other time this chem has treated the family very well.

2-6mg IM'd 3meo has been combined w/ 4-Ho-MiPT w/ very positive results. The 3meo amount would depend on the intensity of miprocin trip (<25 mg IM/subcutaneous tops for me to dose 3meo during a miprocin come-up or during plateau). Or if dosing miprocin >25-30mg--or higher--i will dose no more than 4-5mg IM/subcutaneously at the END (BTW, have explored as high as 100mg of miprocin/4-Ho-MiPT--very non-toxic substance & very pleasurable visually & w/ body-tripping, at least relative to all my extensive psychedelic career history--I DO NOT RECOMMEND/ENDORSE DOSES ABOVE 30mg, per Erowid & per HR)

Ahh how i miss those days before Operation Web Tryp I & II (although there's still a few stateside's around, just low stock & expensive).

3meo is very worth its cost for a gram given its low dose profile! Or at least through the only vendor I have for them Its a very unique dissociative. I may try IV'ing when i get some more to see if i can hole w/out flipping a switch; will probably start around 3mg & work up. BUT I do recall IV'ing (I BELIEVE) around 5mg, but didn't get much of a rush or any added benefits than IM or subcutaneous--aside from increased potency (5mg IV equaled about 8-10 IM, but shorter duration). Oh how i miss this.. so way outta my price range!

 

[crOOk]

as it is a mu-opioid agonist

Source?

 

[AlphaOdure]

Source?

http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/interview-with-ketamine-chemist-704-v18n2

Hamilton Morris: "3-MeO-PCP and 3-MeO-PCE are simply incredible drugs. They have a true capacity for healing, as the 3-methoxy group infers µ-opioid receptor affinity3 and removes the manic pressure of thought that can make PCP quite a disturbing and unpleasant drug."

~Hamilton Morris, Journalist from "Vice"; psychonaut, self-taught psychopharmacologist (NOT a pharmacologist lol). But akin to, if not equal-to-or-higher than the most knowledgeable we have here, aside from the advance chemistry/neurology shit. I've followed him a while. (He mostly rights on Vice & has made some documentaries on some crazy ass fucking medications/drugs he's done--an apparent HIV drug that gives a "stoned" or "psychedelia" effect--while he admitted he felt this DURING? Took him 3 days to recover & the experience was short lasting < 3 hours, only trails, fleeting trails--got the stuff in South Africa from a licensed pharmacist who explained the effects & how to take it for the purposes of a "high" & everything. Its on youtube, or vice's website.)

He interviewed the late Alexander Shulgin & Ann (& the rest of their crew) before he got into back health. Its been linked elsewhere but its late where i'm at now, if you really need more, i'd be more than happy to look it up. But, the doses of analgesia he's talking about have to be w/people w/ very low opioidergic tolerances in order to avoid the "manic pressure of thought that can make PCP quite a disturbing/unpleasant drug."

And I know the word "inferred" is highly suspicious & anecdotal in this context/source; but note of it across trip reports--and especially mine makes it certainly valid, and especially for me; which is what matter. I couldn't go longer than 2 days w/o 4mg w/o shitting my pants by mind-to-end day 2, vomiting, cramps, anorexia, pseudo-fibromyalgia, cold/hot flashes; got none of this w/ even low doses of subcutaneous 3-MeO-PCP, even at 10-15mg subcutaneously.. (tolerance 4mg/day buprenorphine.. roughly 20x an introductory opioid dose in naive individuals. Aka 200mg oxycodone if my opioid conversion chart i remember correctly? Unless hydrocodone was 10mg equivalent to 10mg morphine)--anyway, will edit any flaws. or point them out here or PM me if they're glaring.

 

[crOOk]

http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/interview-with-ketamine-chemist-704-v18n2



~Hamilton Morris, Journalist from "Vice"; psychonaut, self-taught psychopharmacologist (NOT a pharmacologist lol). But akin to, if not equal-to-or-higher than the most knowledgeable we have here, aside from the advance chemistry/neurology shit. I've followed him a while. (He mostly rights on Vice & has made some documentaries on some crazy ass fucking medications/drugs he's done--an apparent HIV drug that gives a "stoned" or "psychedelia" effect--while he admitted he felt this DURING? Took him 3 days to recover & the experience was short lasting < 3 hours, only trails, fleeting trails--got the stuff in South Africa from a licensed pharmacist who explained the effects & how to take it for the purposes of a "high" & everything. Its on youtube, or vice's website.)

He interviewed the late Alexander Shulgin & Ann (& the rest of their crew) before he got into back health. Its been linked elsewhere but its late where i'm at now, if you really need more, i'd be more than happy to look it up. But, the doses of analgesia he's talking about have to be w/people w/ very low opioidergic tolerances in order to avoid the "manic pressure of thought that can make PCP quite a disturbing/unpleasant drug."

And I know the word "inferred" is highly suspicious & anecdotal in this context/source; but note of it across trip reports--and especially mine makes it certainly valid, and especially for me; which is what matter. I couldn't go longer than 2 days w/o 4mg w/o shitting my pants by mind-to-end day 2, vomiting, cramps, anorexia, pseudo-fibromyalgia, cold/hot flashes; got none of this w/ even low doses of subcutaneous 3-MeO-PCP, even at 10-15mg subcutaneously.. (tolerance 4mg/day buprenorphine.. roughly 20x an introductory opioid dose in naive individuals. Aka 200mg oxycodone if my opioid conversion chart i remember correctly? Unless hydrocodone was 10mg equivalent to 10mg morphine)--anyway, will edit any flaws. or point them out here or PM me if they're glaring.

No no no I am not gonna badmouth Hamilton again!

No seriously, his articles are not a valid source imho. His credibility is somewhere between a part-time festival acid dealer and a community college biochemistry teacher. Whenever such claims about pharmacodynamics of a drug are made, the only viable source to prove the claims are valid are peer reviewed scientific articles, which are all referenced on ncbi (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed). Sorry, I don't mean to sound like an asshole here, but that's just the way it is.
There might be very strong anecdotal evidence, but it's not really enough to say "it is a mu-opioid agonist". It's perfectly fine believing said drug is a full fledged mu opioid receptor agonist (I personally am very sceptical), but presenting these assumptions as facts means spreading misinformation (which many people don't give a fuck about anyway).

The listed arguments backing up your case are indeed worth something, but there are also those who have equally strong arguments that raise serious doubts about direct mu opioidergic properties. E.g. some people simply cannot take even the weakest opioids because after years or even decades of heroin abuse they will cause them to feel like complete and utter shit for days once they are out of the system, while dissociatives suspected to act opioidergic do not cause such problems at all. There could be explanations for all these observations that do not support the respective theory. We simply do not have any reliable data, so it's really up to you what to believe, but these claims quickly spread until people take them for the truth, which you citing a drug enthusiast gonzo journalist is pretty good proof of.^^ So I just thought I'd intercept that part of your message by pointing out there is no hard evidence for that proposed opioidergic activity before the next bluelighter starts quoting it.

Btw I have seen the "documentary" about the HIV drug (forgot the name of the substance) and there were some gigantic errors in it, I could point out where exactly if you want me to. Hamilton's pharmacopeia is simply nothing that serves to inform those with any serious interest in the subject, it's just very entertaining sensationalist gonzo garbage. He definitely started promising with this one, but the with slightly different execution and presentation the whole thing could have been so much more valuable. It's not because vice is primarily aiming at entertaining the hipster community.

 

[AlphaOdure]

i will concede, i can't stand his pretentious style either---his little narrative prologues are certainly always filled w/ inaccuracies. As are his simplistic descriptions of drug-experiences. As i said, this was the only one i could come up w/ at the time (as you'll notice the time stamp on my post).. that was simply the last place I had heard it. I do like to watch his documentaries, but i sometimes end up yelling at my laptop due to his tendency to just gloss over--or lump together hugely differing drugs--like that whole bullshit "getting high on frog venom" series.. where he mentions "smoking JWH cigarettes"--but can't name the type, nor even the pharmacological classification of the venom he eventually gets "poked with" in the traditional way (instead of just extracting some & consuming it subcutaneously or something.

I can't believe that dude got the last interview w/ Sasha Shulgin too.. I don't know if you saw it; but, Sasha asks him: "so if you have a new substance you just made, you have no idea of the potency; what dose would you start at?" Hamilton: "uhh I don't know, maybe 1 mg"; Sasha, ::LAUGHS:: "oh really? What if you have LSD or DOM? Then what? You end up with a 2 day trip or a hypertensive crisis!" (paraphrasing)... I had burst out laughing when he said 1mg; but was a little disappointed Sasha was so joking w/ him & not as reprehending.

& what I meant to say w/ "But [his knowledge is] akin to, if not equal-to-or-higher than the most knowledgeable we have here, aside from the advance chemistry/neurology shit." is that is knowledge is akin-to-or-higher than the average BDD, average user on this board (no offense to anyone)--not interested in the RC specifics and pharmacology, b/c i'm certainly a novice.

His credibility is somewhere between a part-time festival acid dealer and a community college biochemistry teacher.

I'll give you that one.

 

[AlphaOdure]

But no, in my haste i misquoted that statement to Hammilton. But if you would have read the WHOLE article, he is interviewing a "ketamine chemist"--hence the articles name. The chemist, for obvious reasons isn't named, but, Vice is a fairly trustworthy alt news network, albeit w/ drugs--like any other news source--they skew some facts, especially in he RC arena. The chemist being interviewed simply goes by the name "H"--he is the one specifically states: "3-MeO-PCP and 3-MeO-PCE are simply incredible drugs. They have a true capacity for healing, as the 3-methoxy group infers µ-opioid receptor affinity" NOT Hammilton.

The chemist goes onto say:

he arylcyclohexylamines light up too many of the reward systems in the brain, with the dopamine-reuptake inhibition, the NMDA antagonism, and the µ-opioid affinity. They lend themselves to abuse and escape to fantasy. I used to find myself raving about chemicals I had only tried once or twice, saying they were Huxley’s soma or moksha, or Polidamma’s Nepenthe. I’ve come to realize that dissociatives have a really dark side to them that classic serotonergic psychedelics don’t.

HOWEVER, for accuracy the article does later on state in a footnote:

Recent work by J. V. Wallach on the pharmacology of 3-MeO-PCP has shown that it actually has insignificant affinity for the µ-opioid receptor

But insignificant does not mean zero affinity. For my dime, codeine would be considered a drug w/ insignificant binding affinity at mu-opioid receptors. But that's just me. & i don't know the detail's of this J. V. Wallace study.. wish I could find something on it but I can't (feel free to search for it if you can find it?); and the doses used. Because I have a sneaking suspicion they're in the ~5mg or ~10mg range; & not in the ranges I definitively felt it (upwards to 30mg, which i DO NOT recommend, especially subcutaneously). But I'm sure this pharmacological assay is locked away in a $50-some-odd-dollar lab-journal somewhere 8) Hopefully an abstract can be found somewhere.

 

[clubcard]

I noticed that the stuffs effect if snorted is a lot more like K than a swallowed dose. Anyone else notice this?

 

[crOOk]

& what I meant to say w/ "But [his knowledge is] akin to, if not equal-to-or-higher than the most knowledgeable we have here, aside from the advance chemistry/neurology shit." is that is knowledge is akin-to-or-higher than the average BDD, average user on this board (no offense to anyone)--not interested in the RC specifics and pharmacology, b/c i'm certainly a novice.

Gotcha now, no argueing against that one. Nicely said, too, the whole post.

 

[HamiltonMorris]

It's disheartening to see so much misinformation presented here.

Hamilton Morris, Journalist from "Vice"; psychonaut, self-taught psychopharmacologist (NOT a pharmacologist lol).

I am not "self-taught" I followed a relatively standard course of undergraduate science study first at The University of Chicago and later at Cooper Union's engineering school. I am not a psychopharmacologist, and the fact that you insert a dismissive "lol" after the term pharmacologist suggests you do not understand what a psychopharmacologist is and how one differs from a pharmacologist, generally speaking psychopharmacologists are medical doctors and require more training than pharmacologists.

No seriously, he's not a valid source, no scientist bothers to question or even listen to his claims.

Unfortunately you are quite wrong about this. The unfounded claim that MXE acts as a MOR agonist was widely reported and my articled was cited over ten times as a source for this information in peer-reviewed scientific literature. The claim, which I explicitly qualified as unfounded in the original publication, was taken as valid and repeated endlessly on drug discussion forums as well. It seems many had the same difficulty with actually reading the article carefully before blindly believing or dismissing its contents.

Whenever such claims about pharmacodynamics of a drug are made, the only viable source to prove the claims are valid are peer reviewed scientific articles, which are all referenced on ncbi (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed). Sorry, I don't mean to sound like an asshole here, but that's just the way it is.

Lucky for you I authored a peer-reviewed article for the analytical chemistry journal Drug Testing and Analysis that further examines the claim and further dismisses the notion that MXE acts as an opioid by presenting pharmacodynamic data. Here is the link (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24678061). As I suggested in the original interview MXE does not have MOR affinity, though there is still the possibility that the phenolic metabolic does, this remains unstudied.

Btw I have seen the "documentary" about the HIV drug (forgot the name of the substance) and there were some gigantic errors in it, I could point out where exactly if you want me to. Hamilton's pharmacopeia is simply nothing that serves to inform those with any serious interest in the subject, it's just very entertaining sensationalist gonzo garbage. He definitely started promising with this one, but the with slightly different execution and presentation the whole thing could have been so much more valuable. It's not because vice is primarily aiming at entertaining the hipster community.

I would certainly be curious about the unnamed "gigantic errors". Some might argue that the first controlled experiment on the thermal decomposition of efavirenz along with the first detailed presentation of the qualitative psychedelic effects in humans serves those with serious interest, others might be too caught up making irrelevant criticisms of "hipsters".

he mentions "smoking JWH cigarettes"--but can't name the type, nor even the pharmacological classification of the venom he eventually gets "poked with" in the traditional way (instead of just extracting some & consuming it subcutaneously or something.

Less than two minutes into the documentary I explicitly state the frog's venom contains an opioid peptide (dermorphin) that is one hundred times stronger than morphine. It is actually the fourth sentence spoken. As for the JWH cigarettes, I explicitly state that they contained JWH-018, as a side note the doc was filmed approximately six years ago, long before the compound was scheduled. I find it odd that your two primary criticisms of the piece both concern imagined problems.

I can't believe that dude got the last interview w/ Sasha Shulgin too.. I don't know if you saw it; but, Sasha asks him: "so if you have a new substance you just made, you have no idea of the potency; what dose would you start at?" Hamilton: "uhh I don't know, maybe 1 mg"; Sasha, ::LAUGHS:: "oh really? What if you have LSD or DOM? Then what? You end up with a 2 day trip or a hypertensive crisis!" (paraphrasing)... I had burst out laughing when he said 1mg; but was a little disappointed Sasha was so joking w/ him & not as reprehending.

If you had actually read the interview you would understand that the "last interview" was a quote from Ann Shulgin who told me that it would have to be Sasha's last interview due to his failing health. In reality he gave a few other interviews in the following months, the actual last interview was published by Interview Magazine. The point of an interview is not to make the interviewer look smart but to illuminate something about the subject, thus it is often necessary to ask questions that will benefit viewers unfamiliar with the subject matter. It's sad that you think Sasha should have been more “reprehending”, saying that demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of his character. I had the pleasure of visiting his lab on at least a dozen occasions and getting to know his family. Sasha was a teacher who was never smug or condescending. Those who understand things rarely feel the need to belittle those who don’t, that sort of insecure behavior is usually reserved for people who think empty criticism makes them look smart.

 

[aminophilous]

Setting aside all the HamiltonMorris hate (personally I love and admire you dude), I am very surprised that I missed this thread for so long.

I want to reiterate here some of my observations that I made about diphenidine in the big & dandy thread, because I'm sure many people will not read both threads and this is a very novel substance. People need to be educated with whatever knowledge is out there about it, even if it's anecdotal.

I am another one of those who think that vaporising diphenidine is the way to go. Even though I do suffer from the occasional asthmatic allergy when I come in contact with cat hair or during hayfever season, I never got any allergic reaction from diphenidine like the OP had. As I described in the diph thread I would vaporise it daily for several weeks. The NMDA receptors quickly (after about two or three days) go into full tolerance, meaning no more dissociative effects whatsoever. After that it's pure euphoria and floating in space, in perfect bliss and being in tune with your life. Because of the lack of respiratory depression even when you're so incredibly high you can always vape some more and be ever more high than you thought was possible. The only think stopping you is that after some point there's no point in being any higher. I know it sounds strange and too good to be true, but that's what it was for me, over several days, consistently. Remember guys I'm just describing my experience, your body could be different so take it slow and do allergy tests.

I also believe that it is an opioid. I cannot prove it, but I base my assumption not only on the similarity with Lefetamine and MT-45, but also based on the subjective effects. The bliss was just like smoked heroin but without any respiratory depression or sleepiness.

Also after a long time of abuse, and when I was very, very high on it, I would get weird sensations like thousands of needles penetrating my limbs, and somehow this felt very good, instead of unpleasant as it sounds. I think it was solipsis who told me that it could be B12 deficiency and indeed when I took B12 the effect went away. Could this be more evidence of opioid activity? It's a well known fact that nodding off has this side effect, although I did not know this at the time so I was not biased.

Crook buddy I understand your skepticism about the opioid activity. It is not scientifically proven, and I love PubMed as much as the next drug geek. But all the evidence I see point in that direction. It's just that I can't get my head around there being a potent opioid out there with zero respiratory depression and minimal withdrawal symptoms. That's the only thing that doesn't add up. We're so accustomed to the idea that the opioid high is something you pay for later, that it almost feels like cheating when you vape diphenidine, and to me this substance remains a big mystery for that reason alone.

take care guys whatever you do

 

[crOOk]

Lucky for you I authored a peer-reviewed article for the analytical chemistry journal Drug Testing and Analysis that further examines the claim and further dismisses the notion that MXE acts as an opioid by presenting pharmacodynamic data. Here is the link (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24678061). As I suggested in the original interview MXE does not have MOR affinity, though there is still the possibility that the phenolic metabolic does, this remains unstudied.

Fate has it that I actually stumbled over this article yesterday. I have also been unable to find any evidence for MXE acting as an agonist at mu opioid receptors, there has been a bit of discussion about this in the ketamine pharmacology thread. Good job dismissing these claims, I wasn't aware you had published anything. When I said "Hamilton" isn't a valid source I was simply saying this because your work is released on either your blog or vice articles neither of which are adequately peer-reviewed to serve as valid sources. I will stick to this statement and hope you will agree to some degree. An article like the one you linked (which I have yet to read entirely) is without a doubt a valid source.

However it would've been much better to state "Vice magazine is not a valid source" instead.

I would certainly be curious about the unnamed "gigantic errors". Some might argue that the first controlled experiment on the thermal decomposition of efavirenz along with the first detailed presentation of the qualitative psychedelic effects in humans serves those with serious interest, others might be too caught up making irrelevant criticisms of "hipsters".

As much as I hated to do that, I went through the video again to find ONE of the errors I was referring, to no avail. I did however stumble across the termal decomposition results you present. When I first watched the video I was wondering about the relevance of this product since it formed under conditions that are nothing like smoking. I would've liked to at least hear some details about the results and the conditions other than "oil bath 250°C", e.g. how long was the substance exposed to the oil bath and how much of the efavirenz was converted during that time. Repeating the microwave trial I remember from earlier in the video and analyzing the product would seem to be of more interest, since simulating the conditions of smoking the drug in a pipe yielded no result and the microwave processing step is crucial according to the "manufacturers".

However I cannot name the "gigantic errors" I was referring to and will therefore have to distance myself from that statement for now - apologies.

What really bothers me about those videos though is that they consist of 90% entertainment and 10% information. Whenever things get interesting they aren't further explored, but instead we get to see another interview with someone who knows just as little as we know or a one-man drug trial that does not yield conclusive results. This is not wrong at all when considering what the videos are aiming at, but it bothers me personally since I have genuine interest in the field which is rarely satisfied by them.

This is because the videos are directed towards "hipsters" and not towards the scientific world. I was not "criticizing" hipsters at all, but pointing out the fact that the magazine that funds and publishes your articles/movies is directed towards them. As a result of this it HAS to entertain more than anything else under which the quality of research conducted and information presented necessarily suffers. I could've just said it's aimed at entertaining people outside the pharmacological field instead, but figured hipster's is as close a description for vice readers as it gets.

Again I apologize for not being able to back up my claims about errors in the efavirenz report, but I will still say that your articles are not a valid source when making claims of pharmacological activity. You do not list sources as one expects from an article printed in a journal on the subject and you do not explain your methods when conducting experiments, nor do you follow any guidelines for the trials you conduct (single dose, single subject, not double blind, not placebo-controlled, blah blah).

This leaves us no way to check whether your claims are correct and that's why I didn't accept it as a source. I still do not know exactly how you dismissed those claims about MXE binding to mu opioid receptors, but surely you had a journal article that was obliged to provide sufficient proof which it apparently didn't. The other day someone posted in the arylcyclohexylamine thread that DMT supposedly has 5HT releasing properties. It was easy to follow the article link provided (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19756361), then follow the link to the study it lists as source for these claims, until it became apparent that the quoted article never conducted ANY experiments on DMT at all and does not even hint at DMT being likely to cause 5HT release.

With one of your blog articles or a vice video, following this pattern is not possible. I don't see how anyone could really disagree.

Crook buddy I understand your skepticism about the opioid activity. It is not scientifically proven, and I love PubMed as much as the next drug geek. But all the evidence I see point in that direction. It's just that I can't get my head around there being a potent opioid out there with zero respiratory depression and minimal withdrawal symptoms. That's the only thing that doesn't add up. We're so accustomed to the idea that the opioid high is something you pay for later, that it almost feels like cheating when you vape diphenidine, and to me this substance remains a big mystery for that reason alone.

I really hear you there, but I don't see what good will come off me argueing the same way almost everyone on bluelight does already. If everyone was very sceptical about the mor activity, I'd probably be the one trying to find evidence to back up the theory instead.

 

[Solipsis]

The errors and misconceptions about the pharmacology of MXE and I guess to some extent also 3-MeO-PCP and the like are pretty annoying, and attempts to draw conclusions from subjective experiences on these compounds makes it all the worse. Obviously with diphenidine and analogues there is something similar going on, quite naturally people would like to have the answers about how they work even before the test results are in.

It seems a lot of assumed facts are coming from this thread: http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/649843-Binding-data-for-popular-arylcyclohexamines
where apparently those "facts" are based on data that may not have been produced in a valid way (check the current page / discussion). Just to be clear: I was no different from others and believed those values, and got them applied to BL's MXE wiki.

So in the context of the need for good data on relatively novel dissociative drugs, I just wanted to point out that it would be good if we understand better how these substances work and at this time we should realize the confusion and incorrect info that seems to be circulating and propagating.

It can be very pro HR to consider the possibility of these drugs having some suspected pharmacodynamics such as MOR or monoamine reuptake activity, so that for example some ways of using them or combining them may be avoided. (Just look at the MXE combinations thread, indeed it does suggest relatively complex pharmacology of the compound and/or its metabolites - it's begging for explainations). But on the other hand I think skepticism is healthy and we need to be careful about what we suggest and claim, because people are clearly happy to copy claims as fact and let them accrue credibility out of thin air. Especially if those claims are fantastical though agreeable ideas like a lot of DMT and pineal gland theorizing.

 

[aminophilous]

I do not disagree with you guys and your love of provable facts, in fact I also come from a scientific background and without wanting to reveal too much about my personal details, let me tell you that I have worked and published as a researcher in a pharmacology department. Perhaps this is why I hate those arrogant pricks the biochemists so much, most of them are real assholes who under the pretence of doing hard science, actually close their minds to available facts and data for political reasons, or just so they won't come up with cures and they'll continue to get funding for the diseases they're supposed to be fighting. The Hofmanns and Shulgins and Einsteins of the world are the bright exceptions, not the rule. Science might look like it is progressing fast, but actually it progresses very very slow due to corruption at all levels of the academia, unhealthy ties with the industry, rivalries between universities, the journal cartels, and regulatory capture of all sorts. This is why I love the corporate world, at least people are honest here about wanting to make money, they don't present themselves as heroes when they are in fact not. Maybe that's just me, I have a thing for honesty.

On the other hand, Hamilton Morris is a fun guy, sure if you work for vice I guess you have to editorialise a bit to make the news more sensational and get those clicks and banner ad revenues, but at least he shows you the drug culture and the people involved, and he does it in a way that is very brave and unique. His documentaries are more interesting and fun to watch than anything I've ever produced in my life so I respect that. Even if he did have some errors in his facts, at least he puts a public image out there, which shows not all druggies are a complete waste of space. That's more than most people do with their miserable lives, drug users or otherwise.

Let me remind you all about how MAPS used anecdotal reports from erowid as phase 1 clinical trials when such trials were not allowed by the DEA. Under the current state of drug prohibition, any rumor, any evidence, no matter how anecdotal should be recorded. This will aid the real scientists out there (yes, they do exist) who are looking for hints to devise new hypotheses. To propose a new theory such as opioid activity in diphenidine you need hints, not facts. Facts come from putting that theory to the test in the lab.

It is an invariant fact that ignorant druggies will circulate myths around drugs. It has nothing to do with any speculation done here, it's about young guys wanting to prove that they know shit when actually they don't. If I had a nickel for any time I heard about strychnine in LSD or heroin in ecstasy tablets I'd be a millionaire, this is not because of bluelighters or the internet, but because drugs are marginalized in society, and therefore the people who dare use them are usually of low educational background. Deep inside them they know of their ignorance and try to hide it by presenting us with "facts". As for me, I will continue to speculate on the pharmacology of various substances, because I always include the disclaimer that these are only speculations. If people repeat my speculations without any disclaimers, that's something that would happen anyway. Instead of blaming people who theorise about pharmacology, why not blame those who repeat and distort those theories, or better yet those who decided to marginalize drugs in the first place?

Solipsis you are very right about all those DMT claims being fantastical. After a few powerful experiences with DPT I watched half the documentary "DMT: The spirit molecule" and couldn't watch through any more of it. I lost respect for a lot of supposed pioneers of psychedelics, in fact only a couple of scientists from MAPS left me with a good impression. DMT is a tryptamine like any other, no travelling in other dimensions or experiencing death or your childhood or such nonesence. A sober mind is a very rare thing in the world. These drugs are called hallucinogens because they cause hallucinations, people, WTF! Don't believe everything you feel, I have seen God speak to me many times and I still remain an atheist. The only truths that drugs may reveal to you are about your own psyche, not the external world, and event then, those truths may be distorted.

Sorry for the big wall of text, I feel very chatty today. It's all a matter of where you put the blame, on the people who theorise, or the people who take those theories and popularise them as facts? I blame the second group of people. </rant>

 

[Xorkoth]

Great post aminophilous, thought-provoking. I tend to agree with you. Except that there are examples of insights from psychedelic experiences that have proven correct, or at least have started people on the path to correct conclusions that are now fundamental to areas of science. I don't believe most of what I have experienced on psychedelics but the overall picture I have gathered I do believe to be true. And of course, as you say, I have gained many important insights into my own personal psyche. Maybe the external insights were within me all along, and psychedelics helped me to find that. Regardless, I do not completely agree that it is impossible to gain insight into the external world/universe with psychedelics. It's simply something you have to really sift through and keep one and a half feet on the ground at all times. I know plenty of people who have internalized way too much of what they've experienced and are no longer connected enough to science.

 

[aminophilous]

It's simply something you have to really sift through and keep one and a half feet on the ground at all times.

Basically this. Spot on. I think I remember Ann Shulgin giving some advice somewhere about how trippers should let their head float in the sky but keep their feet planted firmly in the ground.

Xorkoth like you I also do not completely dismiss the possibility that psychedelics might provide insights about the physical world. I just think it's rare. I see all too often people who take too many psychedelics and their minds become focused in some particular shade of conspiracy theory or worldview or whatnot. Again, if you're thinking of the discovery of the DNA structure by Watson and Crick on LSD, I would again argue that LSD might have been the catalyst or the trigger, but the discovery was made because those guys were smart and educated. Otherwise every dirty hippie out there would be a nobel prize winner.

If you ignore the visuals and instead turn your attention towards the inside, it's much more likely that you will discover your deepest wants, fears, misconceptions, etc. Many people don't benefit from psychedelics that much because they're distracted by the eye-candy which is artistic and fun but when you sober up, it will be all useless to you. Unless you're a painter I guess.

 

[Xorkoth]

if you're thinking of the discovery of the DNA structure by Watson and Crick on LSD, I would again argue that LSD might have been the catalyst or the trigger, but the discovery was made because those guys were smart and educated. Otherwise every dirty hippie out there would be a nobel prize winner.

Yes, good point, and I was thinking of that example.

And ironically, I'm a painter.

For myself, my very first trip transformed me from an atheist with no belief in even human spirituality at all, to the beginnings of what I am today (it was a +4). A lot of the stuff I inherently understood from my time awakened into the oneness I hadn't learned yet from school or anywhere else, and much to my delight a lot of it was confirmed as I started studying space and quantum physics (in the latter I am a layman however, my learning came from documentaries and online research).