Opioids Dihydrocodeine bioavailability and dose comparison to other opiods

[Project Will]

Let me start by saying I have looked all over the place and been unable to find any solid information on DHC bioavailability through various ROA other than oral (~20% I believe). Also, I'd like to hear from personal experience how DHC compares dose for dose with hydrocodone. I happened upon a heaping helping of DHC and would like to learn more about it from you fine ladies and gentlemen.

My questions are:

1) How strong is DHC dose for dose to hydrocodone?

I have heard anywhere from DHC being 1/4 as strong as hydrocodone (definitely not true) to DHC being 1/10 as strong. I like hard numbers, but personal experience would also be greatly appreciated. I realize they are two entirely different drugs with their own distinct flavors, but in terms of how "high" you get from 50mg hydrocodone, approximately how much DHC would that be? I only use hydrocodone as an example, if you would like to compare DHC with another opiate then by all means please give your input.

2) What is the plugged and insufflated bioavailability of DHC?

3) Even if you don't know exact numbers, would you say plugging is stronger than oral?

Any input would be greatly appreciated!

 

[amapola]

1) How strong is DHC dose for dose to hydrocodone?

I have heard anywhere from DHC being 1/4 as strong as hydrocodone (definitely not true) to DHC being 1/10 as strong. I like hard numbers, but personal experience would also be greatly appreciated. I realize they are two entirely different drugs with their own distinct flavors, but in terms of how "high" you get from 50mg hydrocodone, approximately how much DHC would that be? I only use hydrocodone as an example, if you would like to compare DHC with another opiate then by all means please give your input.

To compare two drugs dose to dose you also need to define a ROA. For PO try this thread.
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/564885-Opioid-Conversion-Chart

2) What is the plugged and insufflated bioavailability of DHC?

The 20% you likely got from here.
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/266339-Bioavailability-Half-life-MEGA-Thread

Wikipedia states that is primarly metabolised via 3A4 and 2D6 which would mean nasal and rectal administration likely beneficial (by bypassing first pass metabolism) however you would need to search google scholar for some scholarly empirical studies that confirm this (and the ability for DHC to cross their membranes under certain conditions).

3) Even if you don't know exact numbers, would you say plugging is stronger than oral?

Plugging is often "stronger" than oral even if the total AUC (Area Under the Curve a.k.a. bioavailability) is lower. It often results in a higher peak concentration which is desirable though the total absorbed is less.

edit: Also I doubt it would be safe to inject due to the risk of an extreme antihistamine release.

 

[Pegasus]

Regarding the equivalency to hydrocodone, this is how I see it: 30mg codeine is about equal to 5mg hydrocodone, so this really hinges on how strong you thing DHC is compared to codeine. I feel DHC is a bit stronger than codeine, so I go with 15-30mg, but closer to 15mg, as an equivalent to 5mg hydrocodone. I'm pretty sure this is what you'll get from the converters as well.

 

[Project Will]

Thank you amapola! Very quick and helpful reply. Although I am opiate dependent, my tolerance isn't that of an IV user or anything and I try to stay away from needles. My DOC is poppy tea but I often use hydrocodone, oxycodone and oxymorphone. 50mg hydrocodone is a typical dose, needing about 120mg a day or so to keep WD at bay. I found a great, cheap source with an unlimited supply of dihydrocodeine and quite excited about it; if for nothing else than a cheap way to maintain without worrying about WDs.

I have heard oral DHC has a ~20% bioavailability in a number of places. I tried pretty hard to find information before creating this thread for fear of a bunch of "UTFSE!" replies.

Have you tried plugging DHC? If so, is the increase in peak plasma worth the extra effort?

To compare two drugs dose to dose you also need to define a ROA. For PO try this thread.
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/564885-Opioid-Conversion-Chart

That conversion chart says 100mg of dihydrocodeine = 30mg hydrocodone, which doesn't seem right. I'm on 240mg dihydrocodeine and it feels more like 30-40mg hydrocodone at best - granted I did take a bunch of adderall earlier, which skews everything. I plan on trying it again tomorrow while sober to get a better feel for it's true potency.

 

[Project Will]

Regarding the equivalency to hydrocodone, this is how I see it: 30mg codeine is about equal to 5mg hydrocodone, so this really hinges on how strong you thing DHC is compared to codeine. I feel DHC is a bit stronger than codeine, so I go with 15-30mg, but closer to 15mg, as an equivalent to 5mg hydrocodone. I'm pretty sure this is what you'll get from the converters as well.

That seems way too high. If 15mg DHC = 5mg hydrocodone, my being on 240mg dihydrocodeine at the moment should feel like 80mg hydrocodone. It feels more like 30-40mg

 

[What was it?]

Is it instant release you are using? I'd say about 20mg DHC to 5mg Hydrocodone. For me 240mg of DHC feels stronger than 40mg of Oxycodone...and it is a deeper, more profound high....like morphine.

 

[Project Will]

No it is time release, 120mg DHC Continus. I've been looking all over for a good way to break the time release and the only method I have found is grinding it up in a mortal and pestle with baking soda. Anyone know of a better way?

 

[adder]

I have heard anywhere from DHC being 1/4 as strong as hydrocodone (definitely not true) to DHC being 1/10 as strong.

Actually it's more to 1/4 as strong than 1/10 as strong, the latter is totally wrong. It might be only me and the much stronger opioids I've done but hydrocodone is very weak. By rules it should be 1/2 as strong as morphine or oxycodone i.v.'ed. Really, I couldn't wipe away withdrawals with hydrocodone when morphine ampules disappeared from my city for some time and I could count on myself, it definitely isn't 1/2 as strong as morphine and oxycodone didn't turn out to be as strong as morphine.

On the other side dihydrocodeine didn't turn out to be really that much stronger than codeine, it'd be more like 1.2-1.5 times if somebody wanted to stick to very exact numbers but it's definitely stronger and definitely different feeling. I'm imaging this discussion is about ingesting both drugs orally or rectally only so my experiences might not be as helpful because I've never stuck none up my ass and I've never taken none orally (except codeine from all I mentioned). Intramuscularly (because that's the only way I could compare all these, I guess) DHC is actually around 4 to 5 times weaker than hydrocodone for me and codeine is anywhere from 1.2 to 1.5 times weaker than DHC.

Low oral BA of dihydrocodeine doesn't necessarily mean it's weak. Researches done that show this very low BA also show a very high first-pass metabolism. If codeine-6-glucuronide can cause analgesic action on its own, dihydrocodeine-6-glucuronide definitely adds to the experience after dihydrocodeine consumption. Also, the conversation rate to DHM might be higher in case of DHC than to morphine in case of codeine. I don't think DHC would feel kind of different than codeine if there were no differences in pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics too. Hydrocodone acts on opioid receptors on its own (around 30 times less affinity than hydromorphone), yet I don't think it's a drug heroinists dream about during W/Ds...

 

[TheLostBoys]

Ive had alot of the 120mgs of ER DHC but never liked it as I do the other opiates. I find DHC to be a dull high.......I gave it to my brother to try & 2 friends & they all said that it made them dizzy & one of my friends said his chest hurt a bit.

Its definitely a weird high, at least for me. I rather have codeine all day than DHC. I definitely would choose hydrocodone over DHC but at the end of the day, if you dont have anything for pain relief, DHC will still do a good job for the pain. Its just not an enjoyable high to me like hydrocodone or my favorite, morphine.

 

[Project Will]

Yeah I have to say, even after upping my dose to 480mg at once I am really disappointed with the weak high. I'd take 40mg hydrocodone over this any day.

If there was a way to break the time release perhaps I would feel otherwise.

 

[adder]

Well, so you see part of how you feel after taking DHC vs. hydrocodone is the fact you ingest DHC in a form of an extended release tablet. I guess, I know it's actually not that much problem getting DHC out of Norpharma's DHC Continus, that's the only medicine with DHC available here. It's not a bad deal in case of 120mg strength pills because there are 60 of them in the pack so it's 7.2g. Even using daily it should be enough for like 2 weeks for a opioid-naive person. I've never touched this OTC formulation in the UK the OP is talking about in the 1st post (well, there's only one OTC medicine in the UK with DHC/APAP with 238.72mg per pack) but I'm about to land somewhere in the middle of the UK probably in a "post-withdrawal" after methadone so I'm sure I won't save those 6£ up when I feel I'm done. Knowing DHC's pharmacokinetics are different from codeine's, I know it's a lot more worth injecting it intramuscularly even more than codeine and in case of codeine it's i.m. = 60% p.o. That's a big difference. With lab grade DHC HCl the difference is pronounced. If the same method I used back in the days to extract codeine from the pills with APAP worked in case of Paramol, then it's some source of DHC tartrate but 238.72mg is nothing to think more...8)

Back to the DHC vs. hydrocodone, it's totally different when you've got two substances lab grade side by side, the difference in the strength of the high wouldn't be so much pronounced, I mean it's definitely not like hydrocodone is 10 times as strong as dihydrocodeine! The effects may be subjectively distinct but 6-keto series doesn't feel different only in this case... Take dihydromorphine and hydromorphone - they're a lot different and to be honest I guess most would still prefer shooting up straight morphine than DHM if the resources were limitless. It's sure fascinating how 4,5-epoxymorphinans are so distinct subjectively differing so little structurally, after all it's just alcohol vs. ketone in this case.

Having hydrocodone I knew it was quite a waste trying to get something from it shooting up because it's rather worthless when you want to stop morphine withdrawal but still it's a waste puncturing my thigh too. With DHC I would at least know the only way to go is to i.m. it. You definitely get a new look at different opioids when 1) you had experience with more than 2 or 3 opioids and 2) definitely when you've been using for a long time and weak opioids just don't make it for you.

 

[Project Will]

I know it's actually not that much problem getting DHC out of Norpharma's DHC Continus

Do you have a method for converting the continus into IR or extracting the DHC out of the continus pills?

The only method I have found involves grinding the pills up with baking soda in order to create a powder. The baking soda is used because the Continus pills, when ground up, get all waxy and clump together. There must be a better way.

 

[Project Will]

I found crushing the pills between two soup spoons after putting the pills in the freezer for a bit works really well. They grind into a relatively fine powder, which I just toss in my mouth and chase with some juice. This method makes them kick in much quicker and hit harder. I took a 600mg (5 x 120mg) last night and it felt very similar to 50mg hydrocodone but lasts about 1.5-2x as long.

Using this method I find DHC to be a good, more economical substitute for hydrocodone. It is also "technically legal" (at least I think it is) as I have a "prescription" from a "doctor" and an unlimited supply for a good price. I will not elaborate further

 

[Pegasus]

^ Yeah, sorry, I would have recommended doing so but I figured you were already crushing them...

 

[King Hop Head]

Had my usual get high dose of Poppy Tea (from 130 g of grounds) and then took 8 40 mg Dihydrocodeine (DHC) Ruined the high as I slept all day. Took at about 9 in the morning, went to sleep, did not wake up till 7 or 8 pm.

Won't be doing that one again!

 

[TheLostBoys]

I recommend taking DHC with Tramadol since Trams give that speedy feeling, at least to me they do & they tend to balance out the sedated feeling from DHC.

 

[New2thisShit]

Hey amapola I'm sorry to bother you on a totally unrelated thread but could you by chance let me know how many 500mg NSAID aspirin to use and to what ratio of water for a cwe I really don't want to hurt myself man again sorry to bug you and I understand if I don't get a reply oh and sorry about not using punctuation of any kind

 

[New2thisShit]

I posted this twice because I'm a dumb shit but.... Hey amapola I'm sorry to bother you on a totally unrelated thread but could you by chance let me know how many 500mg NSAID aspirin to use and to what ratio of water for a cwe I really don't want to hurt myself man again sorry to bug you and I understand if I don't get a reply oh and sorry about not using punctuation of any kind

 

[SS373dOH]

I posted this twice because I'm a dumb shit but.... Hey amapola I'm sorry to bother you on a totally unrelated thread but could you by chance let me know how many 500mg NSAID aspirin to use and to what ratio of water for a cwe I really don't want to hurt myself man again sorry to bug you and I understand if I don't get a reply oh and sorry about not using punctuation of any kind

Amapola has been dead for 5 years br0.. Are you asking what a good dhc dose is, or what a good aspirin dose is?

 

[New2thisShit]

Amapola has been dead for 5 years br0.. Are you asking what a good dhc dose is, or what a good aspirin dose is?

Oh shit I'm sorry guys :/ and I have equate 500mg coated aspirin im in the states as well I just need to know how many tablets to use and how much water I want to do this right I'm already in pain I don't need liver failure as well oh and for rec doses as well please