Dissociatives Different flavors/blends of ketamine...please explain

[JdoubleDdot]

My ketamine plug had multiple different blends/flavors of ketamine can anyone explain the differences to me ... German, sand, chunk, and pins ... all have a slightly different effect

 

[elgoucho9]

There are two different isomers of ketamine. R(-) and S(+), there is also racemic (a blend of the two).
Generally speaking most ketamine available on the market is either S(+) or racemic, with R(-) being harder to find.

There are also substantial differences in effects and duration. R(-) tends to have a much longer duration, and has a relaxing body effect/loss of function. S(+) only has a duration of around 1.5 hours, but is far more psychedelic and less wobbly than R(-). Racemic being a mix of the two, as you would expect the effects are somewhere in the middle between R and S.

I'm sure someone else more qualified can give a better explanation. Perhaps @fastandbulbous , I have actually been meaning to fire you a PM and ask if you could explain this in greater detail to me too

 

[JdoubleDdot]

Thanks... I am aware of S & R ... dude told me all the different flavors he had are all blends of both s & r ... they all have different consistencies and some taste way more gross than others... all test properly with my reagent tests, and I trust him as he has been my psych plug for quite some time now ... just curious what leads to different textures and what have you

 

[elgoucho9]

Thanks... I am aware of S & R ... dude told me all the different flavors he had are all blends of both s & r ... they all have different consistencies and some taste way more gross than others... all test properly with my reagent tests, and I trust him as he has been my psych plug for quite some time now ... just curious what leads to different textures and what have you

Different formations of crystals you mean? I guess that would be due to the drying process perhaps. I know if you cook K it can come back to powder in different forms depending how quickly/thick the layer of liquid is when drying.

 

[BenzosBudOrBooty]

That’s a good problem to have since I theorize certain sources of ketamine will actively reset the tolerance. If they’re all good you can switch it up. I dunno what German means in ketamine but it sounds fuego

 

[JdoubleDdot]

That’s a good problem to have since I theorize certain sources of ketamine will actively reset the tolerance. If they’re all good you can switch it up. I dunno what German means in ketamine but it sounds fuego

German is by far my favorite... he had no more so now I'm going to try "pins" ... but you are def correct about the tolerance issues ... when I hit one flavor for a month or so then switch, the next flavor rocks my fuckn world for sure

 

[elgoucho9]

That’s a good problem to have since I theorize certain sources of ketamine will actively reset the tolerance. If they’re all good you can switch it up. I dunno what German means in ketamine but it sounds fuego

German is usually S isomer in my experience. Produced in Germany.

What makes you say different isomers or forms of ketamine would reset the tolerance though? I'm not so convinced about that. Is there any science behind this?

 

[BenzosBudOrBooty]

German is usually S isomer in my experience. Produced in Germany.

What makes you say different isomers or forms of ketamine would reset the tolerance though? I'm not so convinced about that. Is there any science behind this?

No scientific proof just over the years when I buy ketamine from the same plug again and again I hypothesized I got higher when I bought from a new guy. I never did any experiments to test my theory so probably I’m just FOS (full of shit). But it’s worth testing maybe because when I had a local plug I had actually gotten mad because I thought his quality went down when I kept buying from him but he assured me it had not. Then I buy from a new guy I never get like back in the day but it does seem to help a little switching sources. But like I said until you need to do experiments to test if it’s really true.

It’s just a theory at this point

 

[G_Chem]

I’ve noticed that with MDMA. I can get tolerant to a certain batch if I use it too often, but switching them up helps to keep it fresh.

-GC

 

[fastandbulbous]

Different firms produce differing mixtures of (+) & (-) isomers (for some unknown reason IMO), but they produce differing effects. Isomers are generally separated by fractional crystallization of salts of isomers, so evaporating off racaemic ketamine may well produce different mixtures of isomers, depending when the crystals are harvested.

PS. It's the R(-) isomer that produces the antidepressant effects, the S(+) isomer the psychedelic effects (in the most part).

 

[JdoubleDdot]

Just to circle back and give an update... so I just received my sample pack of kizzle .... sand - legit looks like white sand... chunk - big chunks of crystal... pins - looks like a million tiny little pins ... and German - looks like fresh powdery snow....
All totally different effects than each other ( different levels of sedation to spaceman vibes.... all in all I am super happy with all of them

 

[Didgital]

This is a great thread, which ive done a little bit of research on because i had the exact same question. In my location, we have mainly 2 "flavors" which is Sand and Pins/rods. People swear they have different effects, and that the rods are more stimulating etc. When i did a melt point test on the 2 they were identical. Afaik there is no at home test to distinguish between the enantiomers sadly. Even drugsdata.org can't seem to differentiate.

My colleagues and I suspect that the rods/pins are the S isomer, the sand is racemic, R isomer is mostly a marketing ploy (tho i think it rarely makes an appearance), and there are also mixtures circulating that simply aren't ketamine.

Maybe not the best reasoning, but these Rods/pins have such a well defined crystal structure, its difficult to imagine it being very impure, whatever it is.

Im glad @fastandbulbous is here because im curious what he i thinks about some of my ideas. he brings up the good point about crystallization technique could lead to isomeric variations. But i have a couple other theories that haven't been discussed.

I was under the impression that ketamine is generally synthesized as a racemate and further purification would be required to separate or shift the isomeric %. I know enough about fractional crystallization to know that isomers can be separated, however im not sure with ketamine it makes sense from an economic perspective. Its a pretty tedious and laborious process from what i understand so it would push the cost of production up. This leads me to assume that "most" commercial ketamine is racemic. I could be wrong, I'm not familiar with the ketamine production process enough to know

Im mainly thinking out loud for this entire post so plz bare with me.

There is an enantiospecific synthesis of the S+ isomer but i don't believe there is one for the R. I figured that's why R is so much rarer, because it is primarily produced using enantiomer separation techniques, while the S is achievable directly via synthesis.

So, i started speculating what other causes could be potentially affecting the differences in the flavors/brands of street ketamine if isomer differences are not the cause.

The first and most obvious reason is that its not ketamine, or not entirely ketamine. While its kind of rare, other chemicals do occasionally get misrepresented as ketamine. Most notably, is 2F-DCK has effects similar enough to ketamine that some less experienced people could be fooled. Where i live I increasingly observe 2F being being distributed in place of ketamine sometimes as pure compound, and recently as a blend with ketamine. *side note, the blend is my least favorite. I would rather do real 2F or real Ketamine.

Another theory i explored was looking at potential synthetic byproducts, of which if this website is to be trusted, https://www.pharmaffiliates.com/en/parentapi/ketamine-impurities which says there are potentially 26 synthetic byproducts that could be produced during the synthesis of ketamine. I doubt most of these potential contaminants have really been studied too hard, but looking at the structures of some of them, i wouldn't be terribly surprised if some of them are bioactive or even psychoactive. If that were the case, the presence of these compounds could affect the experience.

Sometimes even compounds that aren't psychoactive can significantly alter a drug experience. I can think of 2 separate cases where this occurs, the first is CBD and THC. CBD (non psychoactive), being an allosteric modulator, binds to the OUTSIDE of the CB1 receptor, thus changing its shape. When THC binds to the inside of the modified receptor, it changes how the receptor signals information and thus the overall entire experience is going to be different. In cannabis we call this the "entourage effect". Another good example is LSD and ISO-LSD. ISO-LSD (largely considered non psychoactive) directly competes with LSD at the 5-HT2A as an antagonist instead of as an agonist. I can't really explain the mechanism as well, but this also changes the effect. I think a lot of people would agree that improperly stored LSD degrades to the point where it loses it's magic, no matter how much you take.

I highly doubt a lot of these impurities would make it to the end of the production process, but ya never know. Ketamine Precursor A is pretty commonly found as an impurity, so its feasible that other compounds could be in there.

I kind of doubt that this is the case with vast majority of Ketamine, but its hypothetically possible, and fun to think about.

My last and weakest possible explanation for differences in K effects is polymorphism. Polymorphism is when a chemical compound has the ability to crystallize into at least 2 different crystal structures/lattices. Im going to use pyrite as an example because its fun and you can see it with your eyes. There's different polymorphs of it, one of them being perfectly cubic, and the reason it forms that perfect cube is because how the molecules have organized in space at the molecular level. In drugs and biochemistry, there is potential for different polymorphs to display different bioavailability and absorption rates. So it doesn't directly change the effect of the drug itself, but it can influence timeline.
I mainly mentioned this because i have seen distinct polymorphs of S ketamine.

I suppose that different salts of ketamine could be processed by body differently as well, but i that is least likely of all, as it seems to exclusively distributed as the HCL industrially and illicitly..

Anyway after talking your ears off, I'm not sure we are any step closer to truly knowing what's going on without throwing down for very expensive chemical testing. I find the topic fun because ketamine is actually still pretty mysterious. Personally, some compounds like LSD have lost their mystery/magic. You can't unknow something. :*(

I will say in my own chemical endeavors, praying over a compound during its synthesis produced different results in terms of yield and quality. Might've been a one off, but i still can't really explain that, So i keep an open mind about intentions being a factor too, if if that's some hippy bs.

All in all @fastandbulbous is prolly spot on and differences in the manufacturing procedures of competing companies somehow produces a slighty different product. It's just the simplest explanation. It could be as simple as one company being able to achieve lower temperatures than other for all i know.

Last thing ill say before I shut up. I have *heard* of other arylcyclohexamines that apparently vary by batch mainly in terms of potency, but also quality of effect, MXE and O-PCE specifically, which i believe also have R and S isomers. Not all arylcyclohexamines have enantiomers 3-meo-PCP for example and i have yet to hear anyone talk about qualitative differences in batches of it.

 

[Didgital]

There are also substantial differences in effects and duration. R(-) tends to have a much longer duration, and has a relaxing body effect/loss of function. S(+) only has a duration of around 1.5 hours, but is far more psychedelic and less wobbly than R(-). Racemic being a mix of the two, as you would expect the effects are somewhere in the middle between R and S.

I have observed this as well but i am confused about how the duration of R isomer can be longer than taking racemic, because the R isomer is still present... maybe its because you're taking less R when you using as racemate ?

A little more mysterious, is when i take the individual S and R isomers, to simulate a racemate, i still get longer duration of effects.

 

[fastandbulbous]

This is a great thread, which ive done a little bit of research on because i had the exact same question. In my location, we have mainly 2 "flavors" which is Sand and Pins/rods. People swear they have different effects, and that the rods are more stimulating etc. When i did a melt point test on the 2 they were identical. Afaik there is no at home test to distinguish between the enantiomers sadly. Even drugsdata.org can't seem to differentiate.

My colleagues and I suspect that the rods/pins are the S isomer, the sand is racemic, R isomer is mostly a marketing ploy (tho i think it rarely makes an appearance), and there are also mixtures circulating that simply aren't ketamine.

Maybe not the best reasoning, but these Rods/pins have such a well defined crystal structure, its difficult to imagine it being very impure, whatever it is.

Im glad @fastandbulbous is here because im curious what he i thinks about some of my ideas. he brings up the good point about crystallization technique could lead to isomeric variations. But i have a couple other theories that haven't been discussed.

I was under the impression that ketamine is generally synthesized as a racemate and further purification would be required to separate or shift the isomeric %. I know enough about fractional crystallization to know that isomers can be separated, however im not sure with ketamine it makes sense from an economic perspective. Its a pretty tedious and laborious process from what i understand so it would push the cost of production up. This leads me to assume that "most" commercial ketamine is racemic. I could be wrong, I'm not familiar with the ketamine production process enough to know

Im mainly thinking out loud for this entire post so plz bare with me.

There is an enantiospecific synthesis of the S+ isomer but i don't believe there is one for the R. I figured that's why R is so much rarer, because it is primarily produced using enantiomer separation techniques, while the S is achievable directly via synthesis.

So, i started speculating what other causes could be potentially affecting the differences in the flavors/brands of street ketamine if isomer differences are not the cause.

The first and most obvious reason is that its not ketamine, or not entirely ketamine. While its kind of rare, other chemicals do occasionally get misrepresented as ketamine. Most notably, is 2F-DCK has effects similar enough to ketamine that some less experienced people could be fooled. Where i live I increasingly observe 2F being being distributed in place of ketamine sometimes as pure compound, and recently as a blend with ketamine. *side note, the blend is my least favorite. I would rather do real 2F or real Ketamine.

Another theory i explored was looking at potential synthetic byproducts, of which if this website is to be trusted, https://www.pharmaffiliates.com/en/parentapi/ketamine-impurities which says there are potentially 26 synthetic byproducts that could be produced during the synthesis of ketamine. I doubt most of these potential contaminants have really been studied too hard, but looking at the structures of some of them, i wouldn't be terribly surprised if some of them are bioactive or even psychoactive. If that were the case, the presence of these compounds could affect the experience.

Sometimes even compounds that aren't psychoactive can significantly alter a drug experience. I can think of 2 separate cases where this occurs, the first is CBD and THC. CBD (non psychoactive), being an allosteric modulator, binds to the OUTSIDE of the CB1 receptor, thus changing its shape. When THC binds to the inside of the modified receptor, it changes how the receptor signals information and thus the overall entire experience is going to be different. In cannabis we call this the "entourage effect". Another good example is LSD and ISO-LSD. ISO-LSD (largely considered non psychoactive) directly competes with LSD at the 5-HT2A as an antagonist instead of as an agonist. I can't really explain the mechanism as well, but this also changes the effect. I think a lot of people would agree that improperly stored LSD degrades to the point where it loses it's magic, no matter how much you take.

I highly doubt a lot of these impurities would make it to the end of the production process, but ya never know. Ketamine Precursor A is pretty commonly found as an impurity, so its feasible that other compounds could be in there.

I kind of doubt that this is the case with vast majority of Ketamine, but its hypothetically possible, and fun to think about.

My last and weakest possible explanation for differences in K effects is polymorphism. Polymorphism is when a chemical compound has the ability to crystallize into at least 2 different crystal structures/lattices. Im going to use pyrite as an example because its fun and you can see it with your eyes. There's different polymorphs of it, one of them being perfectly cubic, and the reason it forms that perfect cube is because how the molecules have organized in space at the molecular level. In drugs and biochemistry, there is potential for different polymorphs to display different bioavailability and absorption rates. So it doesn't directly change the effect of the drug itself, but it can influence timeline.
I mainly mentioned this because i have seen distinct polymorphs of S ketamine.

I suppose that different salts of ketamine could be processed by body differently as well, but i that is least likely of all, as it seems to exclusively distributed as the HCL industrially and illicitly..

Anyway after talking your ears off, I'm not sure we are any step closer to truly knowing what's going on without throwing down for very expensive chemical testing. I find the topic fun because ketamine is actually still pretty mysterious. Personally, some compounds like LSD have lost their mystery/magic. You can't unknow something. :*(

I will say in my own chemical endeavors, praying over a compound during its synthesis produced different results in terms of yield and quality. Might've been a one off, but i still can't really explain that, So i keep an open mind about intentions being a factor too, if if that's some hippy bs.

All in all @fastandbulbous is prolly spot on and differences in the manufacturing procedures of competing companies somehow produces a slighty different product. It's just the simplest explanation. It could be as simple as one company being able to achieve lower temperatures than other for all i know.

Last thing ill say before I shut up. I have *heard* of other arylcyclohexamines that apparently vary by batch mainly in terms of potency, but also quality of effect, MXE and O-PCE specifically, which i believe also have R and S isomers. Not all arylcyclohexamines have enantiomers 3-meo-PCP for example and i have yet to hear anyone talk about qualitative differences in batches of it.

For different stereospecific isomers to exist, arylcyclohexylamines need to have groups on the cyclohexyl ring (but not in the 4 position). I could give the reasons why, but I'm typing on my phone, as opposed to a laptop, and long posts are a pain in the arse (I'm sure some could explain why going around the cyclohexyl ring produces isomers, but I'll leave that to someone else! )

 

[fastandbulbous]

Incidentally, for those seeking mxe effects, 3-MeOPCE is probably the best bet, as it's mxe without the keto group (so you don't get isomers)

 

[Vastness]

I theorize certain sources of ketamine will actively reset the tolerance.

Definitely not.

 

[TripSitterNZ]

when i was doing ket, racemic would come as pure crystals pharma grade, and s-iso would usually be pre-crushed, but i would also get s-iso in pure crystal needles.

best ket should be needle clear crystals this indicates its highly pure,

also plugs shouldnt be calling it stupid as fuck names, that indicates they probably cut the shit out of it.

I had some cut ket with MSG once, dogshit stuff.

 

[Vastness]

I had some cut ket with MSG once, dogshit stuff.

I think I had this once too, I can't be 100% sure and it felt like ketamine which confused me but I remember the consistency was all wrong, like clumpy and sticky... whereas usually with ketamine although it can stick to crushing or cutting implements electrostatically it is less prone to getting "wet", like flour... or cocaine... although I guess it could be if it's poorly stored, not totally sure, but ketamine whether pre-powdered or requiring crushing typically has always seemed better at staying dry, in my experience... oh yeah also despite feeling like ketamine it gave me a serious headache, made me feel physically sick, and had some kind of gross, way-too-sweet aftertaste... bleurgh. Anyway I think that probably correlates with an MSG cut.

 

[TripSitterNZ]

sugar is more likely to be cut with various types of shit.

Crystals are the best, but can also be cut with msg crystals needle fine stuff.

I have had sugar that was super strong. In the end as long as its uncut pharma ketamine it will be super strong. You can't really tell unless you get the stuff tested or use it if its cut or not.

Pure ketamine with no tolerance should knock your socks off with small bumps

 

[Didgital]

there's already a thread discussing this. @arrall I've never merged a thread

Dissociatives - Different flavors/blends of ketamine...please explain

My ketamine plug had multiple different blends/flavors of ketamine can anyone explain the differences to me ... German, sand, chunk, and pins ... all have a slightly different effect

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