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Dibenzoylmorphine and the isomeric benzoylpropionyl esters of morphine.....

Limpet_Chicken

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Are the two possible regioisomers of propionylbenzoyl morphine known (esters, mind you, not talking about amides here?)

That is to say, 3-propionyl-6-benzoylmorphine and 3-benzoyl-6-propionylmorphine.

Do the two isomers differ in potency (retaining the same stereochemical absolute configuration as natural L-morphine, but differing in the relative positioning of the two acyl groups between the 3' and 6' positions and ONLY differing thusly), differ in duration of action/half life? bioavailability?

And chromatography aside, how could these be separated? could anyone be so good as to provide me with solubility data in various solvents, particularly diethyl ether, diisopropyl ether, isopropanol, methanol, EtOAc, naphtha (pentane through about heptane to octane, light-light-midweight pet. ether), n- and isobutane in the liquid phase (cryo bath), chloroform, dichlor, acetone and acetonitrile?

Also, is anything known about monoesters formed from alpha-chloromorphide, either the benzoyl or propionyl ester?

And last but not least, relative to morphine, to heroin and to dipropionylmorphine, how potent and how long lasting, also how euphoric, sedating is dibenzoylmorphine? and how fast is the onset of an intravenous dose? last of all, dose range for a nontolerant user (what dose would for example be equipotent to 10, 50, 100 250, 300 and 500mg intravenous morphine, if the dibenzoyl ester were to be administered to a totally opiate-naiive human subject? so people do not get anxious about the fate of this user, it should be stated that there is, in fact, NO such user existing, the information is requested for the purpose of calculating dose ranges. The user is in fact, as tolerant to opiates as mother theresa was tolerant to miserable conditions. And is in fact, the chemist behind the compound and or compounds, there isn't anyone about to be dosed irresponsibly with or without permission yet unknowing of the dangers behind incaution. There is the researcher, and only the researcher, who's just itching to whip his Sasha-stick out and start poking some phenanthrenes with it.
 
You asked very similar questions before in the forum, but I'm not really sure that you really responded to the rationale that the 3-position ester may be less directly relevant and more a indirectly as determinant for kinetics as low activity pro-drugs (if only based on diacetyl, 3-MAM and 6-MAM) with higher lipophilicity, while the 6-position ester has the actual pharmacodynamical value given that 6-MAM is rather powerful. So aside from kinetics, production of the mono-6-ester is what I expect to play the lead role.

In that line of thinking, the more lipophilic and well-covered diesters would have better bioavailability but maybe too bulky a 3-position ester would give it too slow kinetics to be especially nice (although likely still plenty effective). I definitely don't think it helps if the 6-position is deesterified long before that on the 3-position falls off, because it would have unfavorable metabolites in theory.

So I would look first at which ester you want on the 6, then consider whether it would be good for kinetics if that is also on the 3. If so then maybe it's fine having the same moiety on both. Would perhaps be interesting to see if 3-acetyl-6-benzoyl is nice, even if it is not necessary.

No idea about the latter questions. Best is also a second opinion on the pharmacology.
 
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Oh. I didn't realize I had. My memory is crap.

As for the two isomeric benzoylpropionyl esters, thing is, I've no way to control which goes on which end, as currently I do not have any glacial propionic. Although I could certainly get some benzoic acid and do a selective monoesterification and second rxn. Right NOW however, if I am to taste either of them, it must perforce be both, by means of the mixed acyl halides. Equimolar halide proportions, so as to end up with a mixture of dibenzoylmorphine (which will be tasted separately however), 3-benzoyl-6-propionyl, 3-propionyl-6-benzoyl and some prope dope.

Not taken the time to even try working out theoretical rxn kinetics and proportions. But I will be tasting dibenzoylmorphine, on its own, with no other halide present so as to see what its like on its own.

As for deesterification, I think that may well be less of an issue than people commonly expect. I've read quite a few papers on pubmed and retrieved through sci-hub.cc pertaining to heroin in particular, that in fact, paint it as not simply a prodrug of morphine, a mere delivery vehicle it is not. The pharmacology is different in both opioid naive subjects and heroin in fact, takes on an entirely different face, as a selective DOR1 agonist (of course a MOR agonist also but mainly delta1 OR agonist in morphine-tolerant or dependent subjects. Whilst intriguingly 6-MAM is in those tolerant to the influence of morphia, a selective (between the DOR subtypes) DOR2 agonist. Whilst in nontolerant subjects rather than the switch in targets to DOR1, smack is a splice-variant selective drug that targets those splice variants not activated by means of morphia. Which is apparently the reason for the largely incomplete crosstolerance between the two drugs.

And interestingly to me, I do not particularly appreciate heroin (well, if I am in withdrawal I certainly appreciate a shot of H, or the result of some nice long deeply-held tokes from my wee glass H pipe=D) but on the whole it is not the preferred drug. I started on morphine (and before that first codeine then DHC, finally oxycontin 80s, fentanyl briefly (for a day, before I went scurrying back to my GP and asking for an OC80 script again...hehe they didn't even ask for the patches back, which is just as well because I'd shot each and every one. I just did not want to be on fentanyl though for my analgesia requirements, and wanted the OCs back instead, so that fortnight I actually had two scripts within two days for that two weeks, one for fent the other for the OC80s lol. Not that I was unappreciative of the patches, just don't care for fent generally) and finally to morph and lower dose IR oxy)

I've always noticed a large difference between both brown from the streets and uncut diamorphine acetate/diamorphine hydrochloride and morphia itself. H doesn't hit the spot for me, its stimulating in an odd way especially at first, whereas I like the heavily sedating effects of the morph. And this is both with street H and that which can be vouched for with absolute certainty as to contain nothing whatsoever as a cut, no excipients at all bar if I wish it smokeable then caffeine in small quantity.

The odd thing is, while H doesn't tickle my feet, so to speak, prope dope certainly does, I fucking love the stuff. And bar the same but prepared from a full spectrum isolate of poppy pods and straw, cleaned and the esters of the mixed alkaloid fraction taken, then, aside from only methadone as far as synthetics or natural opiat
 
Well then.

Preliminary on dibenzoylmorphine, namely its characteristics upon intravenous injection.

Dibenzoylmorphine was prepared for use, between a quarter gram and 300-350mg of dibenzoylmorphine as a probable mixture of both the hydrochloride salt and the benzoate was poured into a weigh-boat of the kind used to weigh things on sensitive scales. Unfortunately I cannot accurately report precise dosage now, after finding that thionyl chlorate ATE my scale, melted the buttons and it is now useless, meaning I must of course, purchase a new scale before I can weigh sensitive quantities. Oh well, just means now I have the incentive to buy myself a really good microbalance.

But by eye, that is the dose range. This was dissolved in H2O, filtered to remove particulates, loaded into 5ml of H2O in a syringe of the same size capped with a 28 gauge needle tip. A vein, such as mine are, was located in the side of the hand running up parallel to the little finger, registered and injected at slow to medium speed.

The drug itself has the most delightful scent to it, very much like benzaldehyde, nitromethane/nitroethane, or nitrobenzene. Very strongly almond essence-marzipan like, sweet and fragrant. The reagent used was the acyl halide (chloride) rather than benzoic anhydride, which I have never had the opportunity to know the odor of, so I cannot comment on that, for I wouldn't recognize it. But it was sweet, aromatic, like very very strong marzipan, or almond essence rubbed between the fingers. Not so penetrating as liquid benzaldehyde or nitrobenzene, but sweeter than either.

The drug was recrystallized from boiling methanol, and once dry, poured into a container, taken to the place the syringe was kept, prepped and shot.

There is a rush, a pleasant one, although not as rapid as morphia, its somewhat slow, in fact. I did not begin to feel it until all but maybe a ml of the 5ml solution was in. Little to no histamine release evident upon extravasation of a droplet when pulling the needle out. Rush builds slowly afterwards. I am currently feeling quite a pleasant warm glow, relaxation, slight ptosis. Moderate euphoria, although of course, in my own case, I find the science itself, and the exploration of such novel compounds euphoric inherently, and indeed, more reinforcing than any fucking smack!.

I could taste it slightly when it had time to circulate through my bloodstream. Taste sweet, again, benzaldehyde like, or like the scent of low weight nitroparaffins. Quite delightful in fact. Its the kind of scent that makes one imagine hot cookies baking, just out of the oven, or a plate of wild mushrooms set out in front of you, fried in butter, that you got up at 5am to go to the woods and did not return until maybe 3-4 at night, tired, exhausted and hungry. Sitting down to a plate of fried puffballs, parasol mushrooms, eggy-breadcrumb-fried battered sulfur polypore slices, and stewed morels served over steak with fly agaric gravy.

That kind of home comfort kind of scent. Feeling pretty good now, did the entire lot that was dry of methanol and PH-neutralized, recrystallized etc. It doesn't seem nearly so potent, not so far, as prope dope, nor so fast acting. The interesting thing will be to assay its duration of action and how it develops.

Subject gender-male
Subject age-30 years
Subject weight- 9 stone 9 to 10 stone.
Subject neurotype-Classic (I.e Kanner's type) autism (and the subject is not one who wishes it gone, he is NOT a curebie nor will he ever be! hell no. He likes it this way, always has, always will. Not just the best way to be, but the ONLY way.

Scientific education history-secondary school (autistic special ed), other than that, autodidact in entirety, no formal education past school. Have been busily and greedily hoovering up the information he has always been, is and presumably will always be, thoroughly and absolutely addicted to since he started with teaching himself to read at age 2-3 using mycology textbooks. He's a knowledge-junkie of the most recidivist nature imaginable.

Anyhow, no further building apparent thus far since the IV. some itching, not major. This seems even less of a histamine releaser so far than prope dope is.
Really wanted a smoke after shooting up, so went and made a rollup and smoked it, satisfying, not so much so as smoking on morphine or on prope. Those two make the subject smoke like a chimney at a white phosphorus plant. Can't resist the temptation to take the odd sniff at the vessel containing the remaining dibenzoyl ester. CBF fucked finishing his rollup. Going to stick a robe on and warm up, because subject has been topless due to the hot weather from the start of the dibenzoyl ester, prope, and alpha-chloromorphide synths.

Will have to forgo propionylbenzoylmorphines for now, because sufficient morphia remains only for dihydrodesoxymorphine-D and tetrahydrodesoxymorphine-D.

This is not the most favourable opiate the subject has tested. He suspects perhaps that it may be a partial agonist, but a strong one, in that it has not precipitated withdrawal, but subject did have a fairly solid slug of intravenous prope a few hours ago, maybe a half gram or so of pure, uncut, unfucked with dipropionylmorphine, but he now feels the urge to repeatedly stretch and yawn. This may not be a drug for MOR agonist dependent folks. Subject just took 1x192mg capsule of chlormethiazole freebase, 12mg tizanidine, a couple of milligrams of pramipexole, 150 or so ug clonidine and some gabapentin.

Too much muscle tension, do not much like what is being felt currently. Although not hardcore withdrawal. There is enough prope dope floating around in the subject's circulation currently to see to that. Shivery a little and keeps having to stretch right out.

May well go and whack up another shot of prope if the chlormethiazole and zanaflex do not do what is wished of them. Pretty chilly atm, even though the weather is damnably hot. Could of course be cotton fever. Will examine duration and response to rectal dose of further 4mg tizanidine. That usually knocks out cotton fever in the subject the few times he has had it. Shivery. Not withdrawing though, the alpha2 adrenergic autoreceptor agonists were only just taken and have not had time to act so any adrenergic hyperactivation due to true withdrawal would still be in effect.

Rectal dosed 4mg tizanidine. No adrenergic excessiveness in sight anyway but if its cotton fever it will rapidly RAPIDLY stop the shivering and needing to stretch HARD.
Which seems to be happening. To a degree at least. Subject deciding to move to the cooker in the kitchen and turn it on, and stand part way inside to heat himself up.

Thinking about it, this definitely feels like cotton fever, not precipitated withdrawal either severe or mild due to low dose partials, or higher dose strong MOR agonists that are still partials. Stepping into the oven is bringing the subject some relief, as are the chlormethiazole and the tizanidine/clonidine.
 
^ Brilliant! I got a boner reading that!

How much morphine do you usually take to get high? +300 mg IV sounds like a whole lot. Got an idea of the purity?
 
Benzoyl chloride or benzoic anhydride ? ;)

re: esters of chloromorphide: Presumably they haven't been made because, in vivo, they are just prodrugs for chloromorphide itself and comparatively lack activity at mu-opiate receptor if they are unhydrolized. At least that's what SAR would suggest.

I don't think that the benzoyl esters of morphine/dihydromorphine are really much to write home about. The lower alkyls are where it's at. I have a strong feeling that for asymmetrical esters of morphine, the "heavy" side should always be the 6' position for maximum efficacy.

(Knowing Limpet, the shtuff is gonna be pure-enough-to-eat grade. A recrystallization of a clean benzoylation could easily be 99%+ purity with no special cautions taken, if it's driven to completion and the starting material was nice and clean. Also, from inference of other posts, he's got a respectable tolerance built to opioids - take doses with a grain of salt if you are a naive user.)
 
Chloride, sekio, why? For acylations and esterifications in general I, as long as there is no reason they would give inferior results, prefer acyl halides to acid anhydrides. They are clean, they don't require heating, and they do the job faster than tony blair runs when threatened with giving evidence under oath. And to add to their respective general superiority (IMO at least), if using bicarbonate as the base to scrub the HCl, then one can just watch for bubbling, and once it ceases, add a tiny bit more bicarbonate off the tip of a knife. If it continues to bubble off CO2, rxn is still going at it, add more base. If not, then you're golden.

The first, nasty response was NOT due to partial agonism/inverse or neutral antagonism. Cotton fever. Short lasting, terminated in response to a dose of tizanidine in solution, up the arse (oral seems to help little, but fast and strong response to tizanidine, have had cotton fever a handful of times, its fucking nasty ass, but plugging tizanidine has a VERY dramatic effect. Terminates it with extreme prejudice.)

Did another dose of dibenzoylmorphine, and fuckin HELL. There was a very, very small of dipropionylmorphine in there also, as I used the same beaker from a previous synthesis of prope dope, but merely a little bit on the bottom of the flask, it may have made me feel better for a few hours if withdrawing but thats IT.

But whilst it took a bit to kick in, I IV'ed the rest of the batch in one shot, mixed with the traces of prope from the other synths of the day. (or one of the others, rather. I can get to being a wee bit hyperactive in the lab when my autie hyperfocus turns everything tunnel-visioned and the lab and its kit/reagents is ALL I can see or think of, at least until I get desperate for a piss, or to go drop one, or its been too long since my last dose of opioid or chlormethiazole but thats about it, takes quite a lot to grab me and drag me away, kicking, screaming, swearing the air acidic and blaspheming fit to offend the devil his own good self:p Its...err...its what I DO to relax, spend my spare time, if I'm not hiking in the woods to pick tasty wild fungal delicacies for my supper.)

And after about 20-30 seconds, onset quite slow, I didn't feel it even begin to take effect until maybe a half to a quarter ml was left in the syringe (5ml total), injecting quite slowly due to the use of a 30ga point, same happens using a 28ga but slightly faster onset. Feel the beginnings of that familiar, comforting warmth. But once it developed, did it EVER pack a rush. One of the most powerful I have ever experienced in my use of any opioid. Opioid history that I can remember includes the following:

Tramadol (hate it), codeine, dihydrocodeine, methadone, fentanyl, sufentanil, lofentanil, remifentanil and alfentanil, (of which alfentanil and lofentanil are the only ones I would bother doing again unless given to me for free), heroin (street gear, and...ahem...not street gear nor medically sourced, but I can vouch for its being absolutely and totally un-cut, and not in any way fucked with), opium (orally, rectally), kratom leaf and crystalline commercial alkaloid extract, damn potent however), dextropropoxyphene, meptazinol (selective MOR1 partial agonist), pod tea, opium alkaloid isolate, and the same reacted to a prope-dope opium edition, just whacked the whole lot of alkaloids in there with acyl halide after cleaning codeine out), oxycodone (meh) morphine sulfate, alpha-chloromorphide (WEIRD, strongly suspect mostly DOR agonism, my money on DOR1 due to mildish clonus in fingers, hands and feet, almost pure stimulant, although of a very different flavor to normal DARIs and releasers. Likewise fuck all in common with direct dopamine agonists [piribedil, alpha2 adrenoreceptor antagonism suppressed via clonidine, tizanidine], likewise sod all like betahistine, a histaminergic stimulantish nootropic) or AMPAkines, nor like pramipexole] Unique in my experience although a little similarity to aged kratom in some cases. Peculiar nature. A very odd duck.

Also dipropionylmorphine, dibenzoylmorphine. And out of all those, ONLY the dipropionylmorphine and the propionylated pantopon (opium isolate) can stand up to that rush I experienced last night. Jesus H.Bumfuck Christ. It lasted ages too. After shooting the mixed dibenzoylmorphine (90-95% of the total content) I NEEDED a cigarette, and not my e-fag either, something with harmine/harmaline in it, a bona fide cancer stick is what I wanted. Couldn't find much in my bag of baccy, damn I thought, out of cash because I blew it all on a new coolant pump for my condensers, didn't have quite enough for that actually either, but the guy in the pet store I have been on good terms with, (the less said to him about my calling animal protection on the store, twice, possibly three times actually, because they were keeping this poor, poor wee sugar-glider in a tiny aquarium-sized terrarium, with a few branches and synthetic leaves to hold on to, 3-3.5 feet long by maybe 1/3-1/4 tall and about 8 inch wide. I was furious, and I repeatedly called animal welfare in on the place, fish were overcrowded and the ill ones got fed, alive to piranha, which were overcrowded themselves and infighting like crazy)

They have cleaned up their act now, so I did spend money in there. I'd sworn never to do so again until, unless they cleaned their fucked up act. The guy I spoke to isn't a bad man, but some there must be. And he agreed to give me several pounds off the pump because I was some money short of the asking price, and could only have afforded a small, weak filter pump. Not good enough for my needs, and after explaining what I needed, and why, he got a better one for me. Gave my warm greetings to the resident feline, who ran up to me, not seen me for ages, wanting me to scratch his belly, rubbing up and purring and rolling all around me. Good to see the little ragamuffin. Missed the guy really.

Anyhow. Had no money for smokes, so went upstairs to see if there was anything up in my room. Nope. Went down again to the kitchen and back to work. Found a 3/4 of a rollup from earlier I'd left in the ashtray. And all the while, searching I was still rushing like I don't know what. When I got downstairs I was panting and had to support myself a bit on the sofa, and again in the kitchen. Swore and blasphemed several times in utter...I'm not quite sure. But the kind of thing when one has a mindblowing orgasm way beyond the usual realms of possibility, after being on a strong dose of a direct dopamine agonist, and it blows your head clean off type of thingy. Still going strong, barely able to compose myself whilst standing, indeed, it was some effort to keep on my own two feet.

Got my smoke and my hands were shaking, me thinking 'oh christ, oh fucking well bloodyfucked mother of god'. Absofuckinglutely nuts. Finished my most of a rollup, and went on to the e-fag, sat down heavily to go back to my videogame.

It should be noted I'd taken a couple of capsules of chlormethiazole (192mg per dose unit, two taken). And of note, do NOT do this in combination with chlormethiazole, I can do so because I am both highly tolerant to opioids, and whilst chlormethiazole has proved very benign for me in terms of tolerance, and lack of rebound if I do not take it, little to no withdrawal, although I am not, generally, abusing it or other downers. I do use recreationally intermittently if I choose to make some chlormethiazole, bromethiazole, or other downers of the GABAergic type, but not day in day out. As and when felt like, really. But this drug is barbiturate-esque, minus the AMPAr antagonism of the barbs. And if you fuck with it carelessly it will probably end you. I use it daily, 192mg 3x, to prevent seizures.

The shaking was nothing like myoclonus or seizure onset, rather, it was the effort of trying to contain myself in one, upright piece, the way one lies, shaking and panting like a dog after one long, hard utterly mental screw with a hot young, damned smart Kanner's chick. Flop off the sofa onto the floor kind of post-fucked-sideways type of shaking.

REALLY did not expect this. High continued for a few hours, 3 hours maybe 3 1/2 or a little more but not a great duration. When I smoked it got seriously, seriously intense. I don't quite know what was going on there.

I do have something to question, also.

After the synthesis. Not immediately, but after stripping the remaining acyl halide, and cleaning the salts out with methanol (from reaction of the acyl halide with the bicarbonate added as both HCl-sucker and indicator of rxn progress, due to cessation of CO2 evolution whence the reaction goes to completion, or at least, the acyl halide is consumed)

At first, lovely benzaldehyde-ish smell, not nearly so strong as benzaldehyde, nitrotoluenes or nitrobenzene. Fainter, sweeter, very pleasant, couldn't resist going back for another sniff several times haha. (mind you I was most certain that the halide was gone, so there was nothing noxious that could have injured me)

But after sitting for a few hours, an intense, intense odour of thymol, or specifically, of euthymol toothpaste. I do not see how thymol could be formed. I may have rextyl'd the morphine diester from propan-2-ol, I can't remember for sure, because I know I was very, very low on MeOH. Had to beg a vodka bottle's worth of isopropanol from someone because otherwise I'd have been stuck for the night and climbing the walls in frustration at not being able to do much in the lab. There would have been wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Questions are-one-what might that smell have been? I have never smelled either methyl or isopropyl benzoate. Nor benzoic anhydride, benzoin or benzyl alcohol. Nor many other compounds of this kind. It wasn't the acyl halide, which unlike propionyl chloride actually has a very pleasant odour behind the stinging sensation experienced due to the HCl from its hydrolysis. The smell took some time to develop, and whatever agent was behind it, was evidently somewhat volatile because it disappeared upon leaving the dibenzoylmorphine to stand. I could of course always make the methyl and isopropyl esters, but I really would prefer to be..well I wouldn't call it spoonfeeding since it's not my asking for help to produce anything, but just toss me a bone with this one, anyone smelled those esters before, it would save me from using valuable acyl halide, what very little methanol I have left until next payday, and any of the iPrOH, because I had to scav off someone and I don't have any to spare on something so trivial.

Summary-short high, not intense. But rush very prolonged and blew my bloody head off. Will try again as soon as I have a bit of morphine to spare. The rest of my script I can't use for that. It isn't morphine anymore.


Next on the ahem, as somebody called me, bourgeois junkie,'s tasting list-krokodil. Done clean, and done right. By somebody who takes pride in their art and their science. And that means no nasty ass harsh phosphorus/iodine-based reductions or anything even close:)

Wonder if desomorphine can one-up dibenzoylmorphine for that famed rush (of desomorphine-D)....


Shot up, and my god, my howling fucking crucified cunting christ on a unicycle shit FUCK!

Took a moment to take effect, slower than morphine, slightly faster than prope. But damn, shit on my fucking breakfast did it ever pack one HELL of a whallop. Not the high, which seemed short in comparison to prope or morphine. But the rush, bloody hell. I do not yet know if it was the combination with the dibenzoylmorphine (almost all of the total opioidergic material present) and traces of prope (which does pack an almighty rush when IV'ed) but this had a LONG rush, and it smacked me bleedin' well sideways.

NOT what I expected, not one tiny little bit what I thought was going to happen most likely.


Thanks for adding the forgotten caveat about dosage ranges. I am opioid-tolerant. That would not be a baseline start dose for an opioid naive human subject. I do not know what is, because A-I am not one. And B-I do not have one available who would suddenly decide to, or even find it acceptable to shoot up in the first place, and much less both something heroin-inspired and for that matter, that sod all is known about generally speaking.

Got about as much chance of that as somebody posting gold bars through my letterbox, or me winning a nobel fucking prize for service to clandestine chemistry haha.

(one must of course always keep striving;)=D))

My typical morphine dose...varies. But I can shoot up to a gram and a half to a gram and three quarters if I can both source enough to do so, spare that quantity, and manage to dissolve it in an acceptable volume of water at an acceptable temperature. But more usually, I prefer to take my morphine in the guise of its dipropionyl ester, I.V and at a dosage of between 0.5g-750mg, 1g at most. Do not attempt this quantity. Not unless you are both highly tolerant, intimately familiar with the drug itself and preferably not with any depressants of the GABAergic type. I am both, and whilst I do take chlormethiazole alongside it, I am careful with the latter, and I am also used to it. I take the drug, as stated, for both prophylactic purposes and to actually stop a seizure in progress.
 
Purity? uncut. This I can state with absolute certainty. There was nothing added, and the only thing taken away was excipients from pharmaceutical morphine.

Do not ask me how I know. I just do. And that is not the same as the typical BL'er statement to the tune of 'oh man, I just got this 95% pure fishscale cocaine for a tenner a gram!'. The drug never left oversight from the picosecond of its conception, through gestation and finally birth and getting postnatally aborted by drowning and shooting.

If anything had bee n done to it that should not have bee n. I would have known. Chemist did an alright job IMO, although not his most fantastic artwork. Still. It was no krokodil (russian junkie edition, not bourgeois junkie edition)

Also, about hydrolysis of chloromorphide esters.I am not so confident. It isn't like smack is just, or even mostly, a morphine delivery vehicle.
 
Just got some work to do now, tidying up the lab, and stopping my old man nagging me to move all my OTHER labware out of the kitchen and into my lab. Guy's getting somewhat fucked off and fed up of never having any space when he wants to say, go and mash some potatoes, make gravy for the roast, do us a fryup etc. etc. or clean up a spilled bit of for instance, syrup or honey (I mean in the sense of that which is made by bees, and the kind of bees that spend all their time visiting flowers to sup nectar, in the sense of that which is a somewhat concentrated solution of fructose, glucose, and other such small oligosaccharides or monosaccharides and having to call in the chemist-in-residence nearly every time he wants to clean around the sink, drink from a drinking vessel, and especially touch something that is not explicitly, and specifically his and his alone. Or that the resident chemist just wouldn't use, like the awful textured chopping board, or worse, the rolling pin or the wooden spoons (tactile ick, just...ew...disgusting. Chemist ESPECIALLY cannot BEAR the vile, awful, nerve-rending, spinal column-twisting abysmal auditory abomination that results from the old man cleaning that fucking chopping board! makes him think of the shriek of damned soul as they roast. If that must be touched at all, then it is so only either with protective gloves on, otherwise, handled with two fingers, and treated as though it were at least medium-test nuclear waste. Disgusting.

But now he won't clean the kitchen without asking about each and every little droplet and stain. Even enquired the other day as to whether one particular streak on a cutting board was harmful. When in actual fact, it was marmite.
 
Also, about hydrolysis of chloromorphide esters.I am not so confident. It isn't like smack is just, or even mostly, a morphine delivery vehicle.

I thought it was? Or at least a prodrug for the 6'acetoxy morphine. Chloromorphide has one possible OH to esterify.
 
Hmph, not noticed this before, but in the case of chloromorphide (at least this is what I put it down to, given its vastly nonstandard pharmacological traits in comparison to MOR agonists, at least any normal MOR agonist I've ever had truck with, rather than the assorted opioidergic...erm..slops, really, that got used.) My morning fix, until some plad cat is prepared and some eproperl

No, the biochemistry of heroin is quite different from that of morphia, as is that of 6-MAM.

Most notably, heroin (I don't know about 6-MAM in this respect however, neither one way or the other) is splice-variant selective, and targets several MOR isoforms distinct from the binding targets of morphine. Additionally the pharmacology of both diamorphine and 6-MAM is quite different in subjects tolerant to, or physically dependent upon morphia itself.

Namely, in the case of heroin, the pharmacology changes dramatically in tolerant subjects from being a MOR agonist to a selective DOR1 agonist, albeit still a MOR agonist to some degree. Precisely to what extent heroin is a MOR agonist vs DOR1 agonism I am however uncertain. Whilst 6-MAM in tolerant/dependent subjects is a selective DOR2 agonist. Between the change of primary binding target from MOR to DOR and the difference in MOR selective splice variant binding this must be what plays a major or even total role in the differential tolerance to morphine vs heroin (heroin and morphine are quite incompletely crosstolerant, particularly in those who first start with and become tolerant to or dependent upon morphia, and in fact heroin substitutes pretty poorly IMO. My primary opioids for regular use, are a combination of primarily morphine (at least ostensibly, in actual fact now, almost all of it gets to have a lovely intimate dinner-date with propionyl chloride.) and oxycodone at lower doses for breakthrough; and lower dose oxycodone)



It does hydrolyse to some degree, the fact of metabolization to 6-MAM proves that. But how much and how quick I am uncertain. Its certainly not the same for someone on morphine then scoring skag or making diamorphine as it was straight up, whilst not yet having been bound to morphia.

I can and if anyone is interested, will post information about the differential splice variant selectivity for MOR isoforms, as well as the morph vs heroin vs 6-monoacetylmorphine and the switch to DOR agonism as primary action modality. I am right now however, thoroughly fucking munted. Just had a shot of mixed dibenzoyl morphine, alpha-chloromorphide bits and pieces and filter paper residue-soaks, prope, a large but unweighable (not because of size, but because I unfortunately, need a new set of scales after accidentally melting mine with thionyl chloride), by eye, going from previous encounters with pure morphine sulfate, I'd guess about 3/4g or thereabouts, maybe 4/5th, as well as oral doses of chlormethiazole, some pramiracetam I needed to wake my arse up after a seizure in the morning, long nasty ass myoclonic-atonic attack, and it took me a long time to regain motor control and take another chlormethiazole cap, felt like I'd just used a claw hammer to prize the top of my skull off, via the eyesockets, in order to take a flask of iodine monochloride from the lab and rather than employ it in my research endeavours, instead, pour it to the last drop all over my prefrontal cortex, pour a big pile of red phosphorus over the top, and finish off with some boiling 70-80% perchloric acid and a box of matches made to genie. After that, setting the skull half back in place, and securing it by means of the brazing torch and some of the most heavy in lead content solder I could find in the house. Maybe stick my head down a toilet full of flashpowder/sodium hydride in about equal proportions, only rather than be connected to the plumbing, with the cistern filled with Caro's acid and a whole bunch of rotting dog scrotal sacks. Then flush straight from here to bum fuck nowhere, zimbab-fucking-we. Here you go, Mugabe you tossing well fuckpot, see how you like an sleep deprived, sodding grouchy and grizzled old, post-ictal-shitty skull-shrapnel nailbomb stuck up the jap's eye you arsewrangling shitbox test pilot.

And to top that cocktail off, a solid but unknown dose (still in solution, aqueous of course, and no longer steeped in constant-boiling HI) of meth. Quite a bit for sure, but how much I have no idea.


But want the refs, folks, let me know in this thread and I will root them out and plonk them on over here once I am done being completely wankered off my tits=D
 
I'd be quite interested to see the references for the pharmacodynamical differences between morphine and heroin.
 
The differences between heroin and morphine are minor and undoubtedly stem from the presence of 6-MAM in heroin usage (it is absent with morphine). The major difference is that of bioavailibility and potency in my books though.

Equianalgesic doses are effectively identical in many aspects although trained subjects can differentiate between the two. [ref]

There's also a large difference in vitro effects between the three. Heroin, 6-MAM and morphine-6-glucoronide actually act through a different pathway to cause analgesia at the mu-receptor.[ref] To make things even weirder, the pharmacology of dihydromorphine actually resembles that more of heroin and friends than that of morphine.[ref] Mu knockout mice don't exhibit analgesia from either heroin or morphine-6-glucuronide, though. [ref] So it's debatable how much activity can be attributed to the other two receptors.

Curiously, however, though the paper seems to suggest that e.g. dihydromorphine and morphine lack cross-tolerance, (or heroin and morphine), this I doubt very much just from a practical viewpoint. In everyday usage it is still worthwhile factoring in the pt's current consumption of *any* narcotics and adjust the dosage appropriately - giving someone who injects 200mg of morphine to feel straight a 10mg dose of heroin ain't gonna hold them.

The UNODC has a cool paper where (among others) they substituted some morphine addicts with an equipotent amount of heroin (I believe the average doses were ~200mg of morphine vs ~71mg heroin) and then discontinued the drug and graphed the intensity of withdrawal. The heroin abstinence is a little more rapid and intense but to me the curves look quite similar. [ref]

The absence of detection of 3-MAM and rapid disappearance of heroin itself from the bloodstream are strongly indicative that, at best, heroin is a prodrug for 6-MAM. Given orally, I believe it is completely hydrolised and acts instead as a 1:1 molar prodrug for delivery of morphine to the blood. (the use of the obsolete term morphia is poetic but certainly is not IUPAC-sanctioned)

If it's worth anything, I have found that dihydroheroin and 6-acetoxy dihydromorphine (its metabolite) are effectively identical in effects when administered to man, even IV, and substitutes entirely for heroin in a dependent user of same.
 
'trained subjects'...I like it. Sounds a whole lot more complimentary than 'fucking smackheads we just bribed for our unethical as hades study'. Damn...doing that in post-addicts, that would surely NEVER see the light of day in this day and age.

On the subject of dihydroheroin and 6-acetyldihydroheroin, have you personally tried either of them sekio, or 6-MAM, sans any other active dddoddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddmwWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
 
You alright there? Cat on the keyboard?

Of the classical morphine analogs I've tried morphine, diamorphine, dihydromorphine and its 6-acetate, and dihydrodiacetylmorphine. All mostly plugged but occasionally oral too. Said dependent user is not me, either, but was rather a generous volunteer who was an IV user of heroin and happened to actually be another Bluelighter. (In the interest of privacy I'm not going to disclose their identity, though.)
 
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What about these differences in binding to specific isoforms of mu? Any references?
 
I don't have a cat. I used to, plus the former housemate stole a couple (psycho bitch from hell type, real borderline scumbag)
Last pets I did have, were black and brown widow spiders. But no, that was a my face on the keyboard. Decided I was bloody frustrated with doing the math for the percentages in terms of knocking up some hydrogenation catalysts right then (about as severely dyscalculic as anyone I've ever known, have to use computers to do ALL my math work for me....damn did an odd hobby and set of interests ever get drawn out of the hat for me at birth), way too early in the morning, and decided to explore alpha-chloromorphide a bit more. Rather surprised me actually, a little more MOR-esque activity than I'd expected in that it got me nodding, I'V it is WAY more akin to say, methamphetamine, or, actually, reminds me more of camfetamine in that its very smooth layed back stuff. Again, occasional motor jerking, kinda irritating, sort of like what happens (DOES it happen to others, I really have no idea. When using cannabinoids, occasional quite pronounced twitches. Did feel quite prone to borderline seizing if I nodded off fully, started sleeping properly, but this should be followed with the caveat that since starting taking chlormethiazole for the fits, they occur almost exclusively in my sleep, when I've started to run really low on whatever dose I took at night, seizures of the myoclonic, turning into atonic, type, as I wake.)

Stuff doesn't half have a rush to it. I suspect it could prove highly reinforcing and probably pretty addictive in fact.
 
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