dextroamphetamine and memory loss?

[FactFinder]

I have been on dextroamphetamine, 10mg 3x a day for the past 12 years (non-recreational, never-abused) for what I would describe as mild ADD. i also take 20mg a day of Celexa for the same period for 'mild' depression.

Over the past 2 years, i have noticed that my short term memory has gone to crap. i am starting to REALLY have trouble remembering names, and am starting to forget things that i NEVER would have forgotten otherwise. They come back to me once i am told, but it's the instant recall that is problematic. I can't remember a list (like groceries) to save my life without writing it down. When i was 25, i could sit down and commit a list of 20 words to memory in 2 minutes. i remembered credit card numbers, bank account numbers, phone numbers, all without even trying. the only way i can remember a phone number now is to call it every day for weeks.

I am peak physical condition, low body fat (sub 12%), 40 yrs. old, eat SUPER clean, exercise (weights and cardio) 4-5 days a week, don't drink alcohol. my diet is generally very high in protein and low in carbs.

But i am really concerned about memory loss. It is starting to get annoying and I believe it is affecting my career. I will do a hugely in-depth project and get rave reviews, then someone will ask me about it a month later and i can't remember much of anything about it. I can go back in and get my notes/emails and become an instant expert again, but my ability to recall things has gone to crap.

Another problem i am having is that i always seem tired. it is difficult to get a good night's sleep. i have trouble putting myself to bed before midnight. I wake up (not by choice) at 5AM religiously, then toss and turn until 7AM. Occasionally, if i LOAD up on carbs, i can sleep FAIRLY well through the night. seratonin imbalance? My ten year old tells me I snore a lot (she comes and climbs in my bed at 3AM half the time) so there's also the possibility of sleep apnea.

There's a lot going on here, I KNOW. Lots of physical training. Diet. Meds. Lifestyle. Aging. I would really like to try to figure out if the ADD meds could be causing the memory loss though because i gotta get off them if so. Is memory loss a common side effect of long term (relatively low-dose) use?

Also, is this permanent? i REALLY hope not.

thank you so much for any input.

 

[NeighborhoodThreat]

Its hard to tell. You may have finally developed a tolerance to the dextroamphetamine's anti-ADD effects (this is normal - and normally happens much slower with people that actually have ADD vs. people that use it recreationally). Do you notice the "foggy" memory when you don't take your dex or is it even when you take your dose?

I wonder if the Celexa has anything to do with it. Give us so more specifics and we should be able to help you. I doubt its permanent. Even if you end up have the dextroamphetamine withdrawn from taking every day it shouldn't be permanent. Granted, there will be some time where you'll have zero motivation but you will bounce back if you do decide to stop taking Dexedrine.

 

[FactFinder]

what else can i tell you re: specifics? i will provide any information you need. i'm 5'9, 175 lbs. I take 10 mg with my celexa when i wake up and 10mg at lunch. Then I take 5mg (half a pill) or 10mg at 3-4pm for the last dose of the day. Sometimes, albeit rarely, I forget to take the afternoon dose. The afternoon dose is becoming less and less effective, which is why i forget it on occasion.

i am EXTREMELY foggy-headed in the mornings if i don't take the Dex. As in, i can barely function to get work done. I am thinking that would subside though. It still gives me a mild charge in the mornings. I am pretty sensitive to stims. By contrast, i can't drink straight coffee in the AM. it makes my hair crawl. i get 150mg-200mg caffeine at lunch prior to my workout, but no more during the day.

I've tried to dose down on the dextrostat before and gotten by with 10mg in the AM and 5mg a lunch. the biggest problem with that was it seemed to lessen the effect of the celexa....basically, de-dosing the stims seemed to make me more worried, paranoid, etc and exacerbate what were formerly my mild depression symptoms.

i wonder if i should start taking the SSRI at bedtime? i suppose that would make sense. still though, the memory loss is my main concern.

regarding fogginess, i am increasingly foggy in the mornings DESPITE taking stims. my motivation seems to have REALLY decreased. i spend a lot of free time not doing what i am supposed to do or even what i WANT to do because i can't get myself motivated. Just this weekend, i opted not to go to the LSU Alabama game (free club-level tickets). I just felt kind of apathetic about it. that would have NEVER EVER EVER happened in a million years prior to now. Even 5 years ago. I have REALLY stopped doing things i like to do anymore. I have this 'it's all chaff in the wind' attitude which i do NOT like. i do NOT like my child seeing me like that either.

the memory loss is at the core of it. i have trouble investing myself in something with no possibility of at LEAST a lasting memory.

 

[NeighborhoodThreat]

The foggy headed-ness in the mornings if you don't take your Dexedrine/Dextrostat is normal. Same with the associated paranoid, anxiety, depression, etc if you lower your dosage. The Celexa (citalopram) and dextroamphetamine were prescribed by the same doctor, right? I wouldn't modify your SSRI dosing schedule without speaking to your doctor first. He may want to space that dose out throughout the day or slowly lower it.

It sounds to me like you are experiencing tolerance to the dextroamphetamine. You could either increase your dose or take a break to drop your tolerance down. The second option is more ideal - increasing the dosage will, over time, just cause your tolerance to get worse. This is something you should talk to your doctor about though. I use dextroamphetamine to help me study (I'm a graduate student). I find that if I go a few days without taking it and then take it again, there is a huge difference in the effect. Amphetamine tolerance sucks but it can be reduced. Do you take the Dextrostat daily or just during the week? If you have the option of taking weekends off from taking it, you should give that a try. You'll find that Monday morning it felt like you took almost twice as much as you actually did.

 

[FactFinder]

no way i am gonna dose-up. i can dose down though. same shrink prescribed all of it. the guy is a bit of a freak though and i am reticent to start banking *snip - sorry, no prices allowed here* an hour charges to talk to him about it. for the past 5yrs, it's 15 min, *snip* charge (not covered by ins), 4 times a year. i go in and we small talk about how great i am doing and how he admires me so much and he hands me my Rx's and i go on my way.

he views me as one of his huge success stories but I really don't trust his ability to assess my need for medicine as much as i do my own. i am meticulous with this stuff and am very practiced and disciplined with what goes in my body.

the guy's rates have literally TRIPLED in the past 5 years. he's a medicine man. i think he's conflicted. is it possible to get an Rx like this transferred to a different doc? seems like a new shrink would have the caution lights on given the controlled substance nature etc.

that said, amphetamine tolerance and the memory loss are two separate issues, no?

with regard to regularity and consistency...i doubt i have taken off a single day of this stuff since i started taking it 12 years ago.

 

[NeighborhoodThreat]

They may be two different issues but they are probably related, even if only remotely related. We don't allow for legal discussing here but if you speak to another psychiatrist you should be able to transfer your prescriptions. Just make sure your original doctor knows otherwise you could face legal trouble for attempting to fill prescriptions from two different doctors (this depends on where you live, if you're in the United States it is even more complicated as each state's laws are a bit different).

I'm glad you're doing your research instead of blindly following the doctor. That being said, do not discontinue both your SSRIs and amphetamines at the same time. I would stay with your SSRI schedule and see how reducing your amphetamine intake treats you. You may want to try lowering your caffeine intake as well. Since you're working, try it over the weekend when you don't have much to do. You will be quite hungry and sleep a lot but this is a normal reaction to amphetamine discontinuation. Try lowering your dosage very slowly instead of stopping the Dexies completely.

Edit:

You have never taken a day off? I'm surprised you've been able to go 12 years without a dosage increase then! Try taking a day off (really a day when you have nothing to do) and see how you feel the next day with your regular dosage. In my experience, once you get past 72 hours or so of not taking stimulants, once you actually do take them again it makes a much bigger difference. The longer break you can take the more your tolerance will drop.

 

[FactFinder]

i will do it this weekend. i know exactly how it's gonna feel. like crap. and i know i will be hungry. but my ex has my little girl this weekend so that'll be a decent time to do it. i also need to make some plans to do something like tennis lessons or a workout or something else that will interest me so i can sorta stay focused.

so, i will probably cut down to 2x 10mgs on wed. 10mgs and 5mg on thurs, fri. and then go stone cold on Saturday and Sunday. i may need a little caffeine to prop me though. green tea extract should help.

not gonna mess with the celexa. i read that the amps actually accentuate the action of SSRI's, which is why they are often used together. that'd be too much to handle at once though. getting off celexa is a different story altogether. i think i could give up the amps WAY before SSRI's. attempted de-dosing of SSRI's has not been particularly successful in the past. It REALLY causes some dark thinking (hopelessness, basically)

i found some 'natural' alternatives in the form of acetyl L-carnitine taken with CDP choline (or Alpha GPC) and L-tyrosine. those DO help. yes, no real replacement for amps, but still help with brain clarity.

just read something interesting on the dextroamphetamine wiki page...how a relatively alkaline stomach and bladder can significantly increase the amount of the medication that is actually metabolized. maybe i will go buy a jug of that ionic water....but don't want to change too many variables at a time.

if i have someone to bounce this off of, to hold me accountable or see me through this process, i can probably quit this crap in a week or two. i stopped drinking 3 years ago. haven't drunk since. that was tough for about 1 month. i don't even REMOTELY think about it now.

 

[FactFinder]

just FYI....I started early on this last week. i was down to 5 mg by Friday and completely clean Friday-Sunday. First time in 12 yrs. i kid you not. i keep finding myself checking my pockets for my meds and thinking i forgot them.

also FYI....L-Tyrosine and Acetyl L-Carnitine are nearly miraculous. have SERIOUSLY helped my sense of well being. i'm not out of the woods YET. gotta figure out a way to get motivated at work. but the ALC and LT are helping tremendously. i am hoping that their ability to do what they do doesn't fade, and i develop a tolerance.

 

[NeighborhoodThreat]

I've found that l-tyrosine makes a world of a difference when it comes to coming off amphetamines. I'm really glad to hear that you were able to take a break. Take as long of a break as you can - some doctors recommend taking one day off per week if you can. It will continue to drop your tolerance down.

Let us know what happens.

 

[FactFinder]

at this point, i am not sure if i will ever get back on this stuff again. if the tyrosine and ALC continues to work, i can make do with that, and some caffeine. my sleep has been completely transformed. ultimately, i think that lack of good sleep could have been SERIOUSLY affecting my overall well being....especially the memory loss issue.

this morning before work, i kept REMEMBERING things i needed to do/bring etc. my list just kept popping up in my head. it's been a LONG time since i've been like that. this whole come down has been euphoric in itself to an extent, getting back to my old self.

 

[NeighborhoodThreat]

Glad to hear it. Amphetamines are tools (just like most stimulants, including caffeine) if used correctly they can help and not hurt. However, it is very easy to cross the line into regular usage. Let us know how things work out in the future - and you'll always have those Dexies in case you need them...and you'll need less which is always nice.

 

[FactFinder]

question -

you mentioned lowering my caffeine level. i have kept it under control with the exception of my pre-workout drink (140mg caffeine). however, this afternoon i had a latte. while i feel somewhat 'revived', it seems to exacerbate my memory loss and spaciness i have mentioned previously. it's almost exactly how i have been feeling on the dexies. my focus is definitely off without the dex, and afternoons are a bitch getting anything done. that's why i had coffee this afternoon. that said, while i am somewhat revived from the caff, it seems like i am still not particularly focused or sharp. more 'task-motivated' and less procrastination, but still not particularly sharp in my thinking.

on a good note, my mornings have been kinda glorious the past few days. i honestly think i have been waking up with amphetamine withdrawal every morning for the past 12 years. after an awesome night of sleep, i take my Acetyl L-Car and L-Tyr and read for about 30 min. i feel more peaceful than i have in YEARS. also, i find myself carrying on MUCH better conversations with people and generally being a MUCH nicer person.

AND...in the morning, with rest and aminos, my mind seems to be sharpening as well.

part II

early on, i think the dex made me uber-gregarious but over the past few years, it has produced the exact opposite effect and i have gravitated toward isolation, becoming quite anti-social. is that normal?

sorry to address two topics here: 1) soliciting opinions on caffeine use and similarities to dex, and 2) amphetamine's tendency to create isolation/antisocial behavior.

 

[laCster]

dopamine D2 receptors in the hippocampus, a region of the brain associated with forming new memories, appear to be unaffected by the presence of amphetamine.

 

[FactFinder]

i am starting to get a little bit concerned about my memory issues. the SEEM to be getting better, and after only 1 week off of dex i certainly need to give it some more time....but my long term memory is just CRAP. i suppose it always has been to a certain extent. actually, i can remember things if reminded, but recalling specifics about childhood etc is pretty difficult. ask me about what we did on our D.C. vacation when i was 10 and i have 4-5 faint memories. nothing VIVID. break out the vacation photos though, and much comes rushing back.

i don't have alzheimer's in my family, and have always just attributed my memory issues to my 'innovative, forward-thinking' self, but i am looking for something here.

this morning, i went off and left two things at home which i take to work every single day, and NEVER forget both of them.

i literally feel 'hungover' after that coffee yesterday afternoon. i know you guys are probably laughing your butts off at that, but i am not kidding.

i think i drank too much alcohol from age 15-35. stopped drinking completely 4yrs ago. maybe that's the source of the memory issues.

 

[Razzic]

i am starting to get a little bit concerned about my memory issues. the SEEM to be getting better, and after only 1 week off of dex i certainly need to give it some more time....but my long term memory is just CRAP. i suppose it always has been to a certain extent. actually, i can remember things if reminded, but recalling specifics about childhood etc is pretty difficult. ask me about what we did on our D.C. vacation when i was 10 and i have 4-5 faint memories. nothing VIVID. break out the vacation photos though, and much comes rushing back.

i don't have alzheimer's in my family, and have always just attributed my memory issues to my 'innovative, forward-thinking' self, but i am looking for something here.

this morning, i went off and left two things at home which i take to work every single day, and NEVER forget both of them.

i literally feel 'hungover' after that coffee yesterday afternoon. i know you guys are probably laughing your butts off at that, but i am not kidding.

i think i drank too much alcohol from age 15-35. stopped drinking completely 4yrs ago. maybe that's the source of the memory issues.

Hey sorry to bump such an old thread but there was no other replies so hopefully either you got fixed or you can get help from this suggestion.

I had a the same thing ever since I've been a child, ADD / ADHD. Was diagnosed although I'm not sure what they put me on, I hated it as a child as it made me feel "different" so basically I didn't take it, parents didn't force me as they didn't like how I described how it made me feel "not me" so that was that. Did terrible all through school apart from the subjects I loved which I got A's in (which was like one subject or two subjects) , typical ADD / ADHD they would say.

Anyhow fast forward to now (I'm 33 now) going to uni as I wanted a change of career from IT (never got far in it cause I couldn't study for the life of me) , went back to get help for the ADD and I'm on dex and helps with focus a LOT but my memory always has been and got worse with age, terrible. The things that I take that I felt has made a difference (like you I'm very healthy, eat only organic recently from a about 2 years ago, go to the gym etc etc) :

1) Take a whole food organic RAW multivitamin 2 twice a day (the one a days a crap and you just piss out most of it by half way through the day)
2) I take a shot of beetroot juice every day (helps with memory and my workout from the No2 in it)
3) Bacopa Extract , or commonly known as Brahmi. I take 750mg of this a day.
4) Huperzine A 200mcg a day.
5) 1 Gram of Dark Chocolate every day (I only eat organic and 85%+ but I've heard anything 75%+ will do)

It took me about I dunno 4 - 6 months to see a slight difference in change to my memory in general, specially short - medium term.

Lately also started Luminosity (it's free and I just make a few accounts as opposed to paying, does the same thing) found its helping also.

With the Dex though my specialist makes me go MAX 10mg a day (5mg x2 a day) for 5 days, break on weekends and all holidays, he wont give me more, one its the max dose where I live and two, larger amounts are shown and linked to brain damage over a 4 year term and become less effective in higher doses as people have already mentioned.

Anyways hope all this helps, good luck with everything.

 

[FactFinder]

Glad you bumped this. I have continued to deal with memory issues myself. I can't say that they have gotten a ton worse, but I still have my moments. I can tell in the morning when I wake up whether I am going to have a 'good memory day' or not. I am fairly convinced that many/much of my memory issues are a function of sleep quality more than anything else. I am back on the dex, same as you...2x5mg a day. I used to take 3x10mg before starting all this. I just can't function on less than the 10mg. it's frustrating of course. I have also discovered that I can't digest protein as well as I used to and significant protein for dinner will disrupt sleep. Declining seratonin with age also affects sleep and memory. Milk and sugary snacks before bed help with sleep and memory.

So where did you read about larger amounts of dex being linked to brain damage? That's concerning. I took 3x10mg for 12 yrs : 0

 

[Hunter19877]

Dxm definitely fucks with your memory. man i have lost so much memory. good times and things i would like to remember.... Like short term memory goes out the window lol! But if you stay off the shit for a long tine you start to get your memory back.

 

[Razzic]

Dxm definitely fucks with your memory. man i have lost so much memory. good times and things i would like to remember.... Like short term memory goes out the window lol! But if you stay off the shit for a long tine you start to get your memory back.

I did start to repair my memory. With a long list of cocktail supplements. I'm not even home at the moment. I'm at my partners parents place for holidays in Germany.

Sorry for not looking at the thread again. But if it helps my memory peaked failed after my anti depressants. I strongly believe they screwed up my memory big time.

Just a quick basic history. Was like you, memory rocked. I worked in IT and could tell people what to do support wise across the phone with facts remembered purely mentally. After my grandfather died whom I was very close to the Dr quickly prescribed me anti depressants. After many years on them (around 10 and trying every single one on the market) it actually made matters WORSE and I would get break through severe anxiety to boot. This was then covered up by valium, to which things got worse again anxiety wise.

After I learned nutrition, and got fit and took a role in my own health (mentally and physically) only then did I start to improve. Supplements have been a lifesaver for me. I started to notice my memory coming back. Long term memory supplements like Bacopa were great. Took a while to notice the effects though, kind of like I guess repairing my brain, altering / building neuroplasticity. Also Hupa A and Choline.

Also did Lumosity for what it's worth.

At the time also which I think is worth mentioning as a child I was very into stuff like Roleplaying games, extremely long but satisfying. These days I cannot for the life of me play them, I have not got the patience at all. I mostly know now after long time efforts of certain activities (FPS playing etc) your brain shuts down or makes less active certain areas and concentrates on the ones you are doing to become "better" maybe it's why I have become this way (again all neuroplasticity of the brain alternating) I'm sure I could get it back but it would take time and at the current time I'm at uni doing my bachelor of science degree so it is why I'm needing dex still.

I've always had ADD (inattentive type) for as long as I can remember. If things didn't interest me I just zone out. I still do and was never on meds as a child, as a result my grades suffered greatly, as lets face it, the system put in place for us is only for one learning type. And there is suppose to be at least 4. Kind of a bad system we have in place but no quick and easy fix apart from meds.

Anyways just thought I'd give you some insight as to not worry that much. I'm much more worried about other things dex can cause (ie parkinsons link and neurotoxicity and what not) and perm changes to the synapse's. I think for that reason like yourself after dex (on rest days etc) I'm on l-tyrosine and what not just to try and replenish the lack of neurotransmitters that dex have screwed up (ie down regulated) in regards to dopamine and the rest.

I think the protection thread was a nice start (all 3 of them) , although it is a huge reading and needs to be summarized as it is very easy to get lost. Also a lot of info still is in the discussion parts not on the main lists.

 

[homesickghosts]

Sorry, I had to reply, reading this was a revelation- everything now makes sense as I'm also in the same boat as you guys. I'm 17 right now and I have been diagnosed with ADD since I was 10, was on Ritalin when I was 12 but stopped after a few weeks (I personally don't believe children should be on amps- let alone even NEED them). I'm in my final year of school and obviously struggling a lot. I have been on dex 40mg extended release for about a year now, but after about 6 months it 'pooped out' on me. I'm still so so devastated by this because when it was working everything was amazing, it was like I could finally do what I had been wanting to do all my life. I never really felt the major impacts of ADD prior to medication but after those glorious months where the dex was working my life completely changed. I have tried almost everything to help my tolerance but so far nothing has worked. I have completely changed my diet, given up caffeine, gone off my prozac ( have been on about 40mg for almost a year. And going off them definitely did not work) tried Ritalin again and also tried vvyanse. Vvyanse is ok but nothing compared to dex. I know that taking long breaks from it is the best thing to do but I really can't do that because I'm currently living through the most important part of my life (everyone tells me) and every time I stop taking it I sleep for about 18 hours and go through 2 weeks of unbearable tiredness. (Sorry I'm rambling on). I've noticed recently that my memory has seriously gone down hill, so much so that I can't even put a password on my phone anymore. Like you guys I also used to have really good memory and was notorious for NEVER getting headaches- i hardly ever got tired, but that was probably the ADD. My thoughts used to be so clear- too clear actually, in fact that's the reason I was originally medicated. These days my mind feels like a murky swamp because nothing is clear and I can't recall anything. I wake up extremely tired and by 4 o'clock I usually have a headache. I'm really worried- scared actually because I want to live up to my potential but righ now nothing is motivating me. it's like sitting in front of a cake that you want to eat but u physically can't eat it. I'm going off all my meds as soon as I finish school because I'm sick of this. I'm scared because I'm running out of time and this is the worst time for this to happen. In fact, I have two 3 hour final exams tomorrow that I should be studying for because I am not prepared at all. Instead, I'm sitting on my bed doing nothing .... as per usual
if anyone has any suggestions pleeeeeease help I'm begging u