cyclopropane, a little known old anaesthetic gass

[Limpet_Chicken]

Treefa.....you say N2O is the only inhaled volatile anaesthetic worth a damn recreationally.

What about diethyl ether, diisopropyl ether, or (although I've never tried it), xenon?
At least with xenon nobody is likely to spontaneously ignite themselves. Not unless they go and build themselves a DIY F2 or chlorine trifluoride rebreather

I imagine ethylisopropyl ether is going to be psychoactive also, although I have never actually gotten round to synthesizing any EtOiP, or of course, ethyl-n-propyl ether, propyl-isopropyl or di-n-propyl ethers. One does need to be very careful with diisopropyl ether though, as the ethers of secondary alcohols where the '2 carbon is proximal to the bridging oxygen are apparently particularly prone to formation of extremely unstable alkylidene peroxides, through an intermediate hydroperoxide. The hydroperoxides are (or at least, in the case of EtOEt) apparently pretty sluggishly explosive that are somewhat lacking in the brisance dept. but for example, ethylidene peroxide, those are most unstable and prone to detonation with extreme violence, even tiny quantities (a few mg according to wikipedia,) surprisingly enough, this not something I have however personally tested deliberately, since A-my lab is my most prized possession, B-I do not wish to deliberately synthesize hideously unstable, brisant as hell primary HEs, C-I wish that even less so when it would be inside a glass flask, least of all MY flasks. And it goes without saying the combination of the above, in one of MY damn pieces of glass labware that would almost certainly end up with said piece of glass being reduced to a cloud of high-velocity, razor sharp shrapnel, whilst suspended in a quantity of highly flammable solvent and in a room full of a large variety of things that I most certainly do not fancy much the prospect of being present whilst the aforementioned razor-wind travels first through all the fumig H2SO4, chromyl chloride, SOCl2, iodine monochloride, nitroparaffins, the rest of the diethyl/diisopropyl ether, phosphorus, MeI and all the other fun, friendly fluffy chemical entities which could end up as a coating on the shitstorm of low-density, not great on X-ray ultrasharp flying blades and glass dust coming to shred one to something resembling the pink slime added by sleazy food manufacturers to what is intended to be taken as 'meat', but in fact would be more accurately described by the term 'product of animal origin'

Pretty cautious about preventing the same happening accidentally too. Whilst yearly is meant to be fine for well-stored EtOEt, I read three monthly at the longest for intervals between testing diisopropyl ether for peroxides. Not sure if the peroxides of sec. alcohol ethers detonate with greater violence than an equivalent stoichiometric quantity of ethylidene peroxide. But considering I have seen a photograph of some 'off' diethyl ether's ground zero and what it did to the lab in question (to which I have no connection, I just saw the picture of the aftermath), I don't WANT to know.

The ether in question was contained within a fridge. All the windows got blasted out by the shockwave of the detonating peroxidized ether, and as for the fridge, or what was left of it, that ended up embedded in bits of the ceiling in twisted, shattered pieces, along with a few larger lumps of what used to be said fridge.

Would have been fun to watch, I am sure, from about half a mile off. Well, for a fan of huge kablooey-events. Personally I'd have been rather preoccupied with A-ducking for cover and B-realizing how bad whoever owned the lab must have been gutted (psychologically speaking, unless present in the place at the time, in which case, more in the physical sense)


That said, I am a big fan of either inhaled or/and oral EtOEt/iPrOiPr. Lovely stuff.

 

[Solipsis]

So these ethers also have that hippy crack quality of nitrous like you solved the puzzle of life with feelings of deja vu etc and then forgetting the specifics of the revelation? I tried it once but it was too volatile to use with a handkerchief, it was all gone before I could do it right.
How do you actually inhale it and recycle like nitrous? Like huffing glue or a nitrous balloon only with a container made of leather? or whatever else doesn't dissolve

Yea I'd like some proper PrOPr.. But indeed the volatile explosive solvents or explosive gases I'd rather avoid, I don't even like something like BHO or just generally using ether as a solvent for small clandestine experiments, do not want that stuff in the house..

If you do have it, maybe you'd better make something like a storm shelter on the far other side of your property, in the ground though shallow..? Seems preferable to storing it along with stuff that will Cronenberg you.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

Cronenberg? don't get the reference.

The iProiPr, EtOEt and THF (the last of course used strictly as a solvent, whilst it of course smells pleasant, it is not something I am going to, or ever have, deliberately inhaled)

My diethyl/diisopropyl ether and THF are checked at appropriate periods for peroxidation, and stored in metal cans under inert gas (argon), also if and when decanted, again, sparged with, and stored under a blanket of argon, and indeed, unless its a matter of a simple wash of a filter cake et cetera, or rex'n from a few ml of solvent, then reactions are again, conducted under inert gas.

And before anyone says use nitrogen, the ether is often enough used for in-situ Birch-Benkeser reductions. Its actually quite a handy method of doing it. A little excess Li to distill the ether from, then into a dried flask with mag stirring, Li added slowly in small chips or pellets, bits snipped offf the main chunks cut small with wire cutters, and NH3 generated by means of CaO/an ammonium salt such as the sulfate or phosphate, drying tube of CaO, the quicklime acts as a base that generates no H2O, unlike say, hydroxide (although it can work well enough using hydroxide, if one uses a drying trap with a compatible drying agent, and bubbling the NH3(g) through the ether/Li under stirring whilst on an salted ice/diethylene glycol/denatured crap alcohol such as methylated spirits and some CaCl2, that combination works well enough to keep things mighty cold. Heck, possibly with a precooler stage, MAYBE enough to condense liquid anhydrous NH3 although that has not been tried, since an in-situ birch-B in dried EtOEt works rather well. Takes a fair while bubbling the dried ammonia gas through it to preform the electride and solvated electron blue-black (preferably don't use battery Li, it can be done, and indeed it does have the advantage of more surface area resulting in a more rapid formation of solvated electrons. But, unfortunately its a pain to remove without oxidation. Also an alloy with calcium metal gives excellent results. At least on standard substrates with no electron-donating/withdrawing effects, and of course not using excess Li, as unlike Na, Li will reduce a phenyl ring to a cyclohexadiene quite easily if in excess.

Couldn't say if its like huffing glue, that is not something on my to-do list. Maybe if I had days to live and terminal cancer, otherwise, no thanks.

Best way for the ethers is just to fill a bottle, like a flask or other narrow-necked bottle, add a little absorbent such as cloth, bog roll, doesn't matter as long as it doesn't do nasty things in contact with ether, stick nose to bottle mouth and inhale through nose. If same gets a bit blocked, xylometazoline drops, 1-2 drops per nostril will sort that right out.

And I wouldn't know about the whole mystery of the universe thing with nitrous, never experienced that effect from N2O. Neither from whippits (now I just need to find my cracker, as I had the good fortune to find an entire box of unused whippits the other day, just can't find my blasted cracker. Typical.

Anyhow, its more the other way round. I don't find ethers like nitrous. I find nitrous like way-too-short-lived diethyl/diisopropyl ether or really piss weak sevoflurane. The latter being IMO the best of the bunch. Never had all that mystical revelation stuff from nitrous, not even after two tanks full in succession whilst in hospital (twice in fact)


I'd really not recommend cyclopropane though. Never tried it, never had reason to work with the hydrocarbon itself. Cyclopropane rings, epoxides, aziridines fair enough but never had contact with cPr gas. As said earlier by another poster, the reason, or one of them, that alkane hydrocarbons are such dangerous inhalants (think 'sudden death in sniffers' is that they sensitize the heart to adrenaline, rendering mild surprises, as I understand it, sometimes sufficient to induce fatal arrhythmias. Which personally, I would sooner forgo.

Whilst I wouldn't make a habit of regular use, I have to say, in sub-general anaesthetizing doses, sevoflurane has to be the most pleasant of them all, surpassing even ether, as it is much, MUCH more potent and rapid in onset. Reminds me of the effects of inadvertent intoxication by chloroform or dirclor when I first was starting out in chemistry as a kid, and had not the income to afford fresh filters for my mask until I'd found enough loose change on the streets, or sold enough flowers door to door, washed enough cars to earn enough for fresh mask canisters and further supplies of reagents.

Lol, I do have to laugh, even now, at the kind of looks I got from the owner of the store I bought them from when giving him my requests as to what was needed protection from, getting the likes of 'you sure your father told you the right ones?' before being told that he has no need for a gas mask, why would he be telling me what I need?' pricelessly amusing

 

[Solipsis]

I should have made myself clearer: only like huffing glue as in keeping the solvent vapor in a bag to concentrate it rather than let it escape when just inhaling through doused handkerchief.

Cronenberg, the movie director and master of visceral horror - so talking about really graphic deformity. Also a Rick and Morty reference in which it was also used as a verb and a sort-of-adjective.

Any other drugs that sensitize the heart to adrenaline like that?

Nice stories, better living through chemistry

 

[d1nach]

I think it is fair to say that the amount of knowledge of chemistry to safely store and use inhalents exceeds that of any typical drug user and while there are always exceptions to the rule the vast majority but themselves at great risk and possible death by attempting so.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

Yes, chloroform apparently does.

I don't exactly keep the ethers around as inhalents, I have other uses that require EtOEt, THF etc. But hey if its sitting there, figured I may as well try the stuff. Rather pleasant actually. Not as intense as nitrous, quite similar, but with a much more rapid onset. At least it isn't as intense at first but its possible to get rather far down the rabbit hole, so to speak. And it lasts longer. Fairly rapid offset but longer than nitrous. Only downsides are peroxidation (which can of course be managed appropriately)

And the fact that people can smell it a fucking mile off if its just left to evaporate to the external environment (as opposed to being contained in a flask with effective cooling and decent reflux condensers.)

Major deja vu quality to it though. And surprisingly difficult to actually knock oneself unconscious with at least diethyl ether via the inhalational route. Orally its another matter, considerably more potent than when inhaling the vapor. No real hangover to speak of, certainly not the filthy hangover that can come from an all nighter drinking spirits. All in all, it beats the shit out of the ethanol it probably started out as. Although belch and people are going to know about it

And I wouldn't recommend smoking either. If your going to, then leave the building entirely, although actually, chances are you won't even WANT to smoke after your first drag or two (as I said, don't do it in the vicinity of the ether, and certainly don't spark up if you have any on you. Go out, or go up. Your choice), anyhow, taste tobacco smoke once and you won't wish to a second time on ether, it makes it both smell and taste repulsive.

 

[Neuroprotection]

Can anyone explain why cyclopropane is such a potent anaesthetic, that is compare to other hydrocarbons such as butane and propane. To illustrate this it is said that 30 percent cyclopropane can induce general anaesthesia and was the typical concentration used for most patients.

 

[Neuroprotection]

Yes, chloroform apparently does.

I don't exactly keep the ethers around as inhalents, I have other uses that require EtOEt, THF etc. But hey if its sitting there, figured I may as well try the stuff. Rather pleasant actually. Not as intense as nitrous, quite similar, but with a much more rapid onset. At least it isn't as intense at first but its possible to get rather far down the rabbit hole, so to speak. And it lasts longer. Fairly rapid offset but longer than nitrous. Only downsides are peroxidation (which can of course be managed appropriately)

And the fact that people can smell it a fucking mile off if its just left to evaporate to the external environment (as opposed to being contained in a flask with effective cooling and decent reflux condensers.)

Major deja vu quality to it though. And surprisingly difficult to actually knock oneself unconscious with at least diethyl ether via the inhalational route. Orally its another matter, considerably more potent than when inhaling the vapor. No real hangover to speak of, certainly not the filthy hangover that can come from an all nighter drinking spirits. All in all, it beats the shit out of the ethanol it probably started out as. Although belch and people are going to know about it

And I wouldn't recommend smoking either. If your going to, then leave the building entirely, although actually, chances are you won't even WANT to smoke after your first drag or two (as I said, don't do it in the vicinity of the ether, and certainly don't spark up if you have any on you. Go out, or go up. Your choice), anyhow, taste tobacco smoke once and you won't wish to a second time on ether, it makes it both smell and taste repulsive.

It's interesting that you have access to a range of different ethers.
How would you describe diisopropyl ether?
What are its properties? How does it compare to Diethyl ether. Also just out of interest have you ever inhaled ethylene gas. How does that compare to ether. I asked because ethylene was once used as a anaesthetic.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

Ethylene, no I haven't. Hadn't any plans to either. I am not exactly seeking new and novel inhalants to use. MOST of them aren't nice things or good, sensible things to use in vivo.

Ethers, I'll make an exception for, and likewise the likes of some of the medically used accepted volatile anaesthetics, like sevoflurane, which I particularly enjoyed. Reminded me an awful lot of something halfway between ether and (bearing in mind, only time I ever tried this latter deliberately, was in childhood, way before internet access or knowing any better) dichloromethane. Dichlor being particularly subjectively similar. More so to sevo than to ether or iPrOiPr.

Diisopropyl ether, it feels kind of...colder and more more mechanical, robotic....I know thats a pretty shit description. But it isn't easy to word the subjective experience. Obviously NMDA antagonism going on, has that same cognitive 'signature' as dissociatives generally speaking. IMO less calming, and easy, relaxing and sedating feel that diethyl ether gives me. Quite potent, of the two, flavour-wise I prefer diethyl ether, but diisopropyl does feel pretty strong. Somewhat less deja vu weirdness to it.

Physical properties, are that it is again highly flammable, and has the property of being quite handy at times for extraction of polar substances from polar solvents, as long as the diisopropyl ether is immiscible/poorly so in the other solvent.

And it is the very devil for peroxidation, although myself I have never had any unpleasantness happen, I rigorously check the stuff, and whilst its likely paranoia, its probably not unhealthy paranoia, I tend to work with it under inert gas blanketing, whether or not there is anything air or moisture sensitive in it, if it isn't being inhaled or consumed. I'd sooner fill a flask and sparge with a few tens of pence worth of argon or nitrogen (argon if lithium is being used, since it forms an extremely basic nitride under N2, unlike the other alkali metals) and have less O2 around to potentially start doing its peroxidation thing, and when recycling the stuff, never, ever distill off the last bit. The last tailings in the still flask get tossed on the garden, the glass moved WELL away, back into the lab, and a match tossed onto the soil, bare soil, soaked in the remnants of the ether, the remains of which I wash out with a little naphtha, pentane etc, pour away on same place and burn off. Gives quite an impressive 'whump!' noise, like diethyl ether does when ignited. Bearing in mind this is only to dispose safely of small quantities, to avoid concentrating tailings when distilling off. And check for peroxidation very regularly with potassium iodide/starch paper. Presence of peroxides in ethers will turn it dark from the KI being oxidized to iodine and the latter reacting with the starch on a piece of such paper, a little moistened.

Its not dissimilar in vivo to diethyl ether, again, little hangover, although after a long session it can leave a taste behind on the breath underneath the scent of the diisopropyl ether itself that I do not like.

As for access to a range of ethers..yes, well, I am and will forever be grateful for the fact of being able to buy many reagents a lot of hobbyist chemists find very difficult to obtain, and/or who's syntheses are dangerous, technically and practically challenging or both (such as for instance, as a kid, I had to get the red allotrope of phosphorus and heat under inert gas in sealed tubes, then distill off the white phosphorus if I wanted the latter, and if I were to want phosphorus halides, I'd have to do it the hard way. Now, I may dispense with that and simply request a price for my requirements. Some folk, enterprising as they get, have done it right from scratch with carbothermic reduction of phosphates using some impressive DIY furnaces, on places like sciencemadness. And ready access to reagents that will otherwise be a perennial bugger of considerable magnitude to do at all, such as acyl halides, oxalyl chloride, acid anhydrides.

Pressurized cylinders of gases are probably my biggest difficulty. Of course some can come from welding stores, but they aren't going to carry some things I would like very much, but am unwilling to attempt bottling myself, such as chlorine. I'd LOVE to be able to just turn a tap and have as much dry gaseous, or dry ice-condensed liquid Cl2 as I wanted, at the precise pressure and flow rate I at any moment would desire, but sadly, big gas tanks of such things are almost certainly the thing I have greatest difficulty with, and as a result, have to make as they are to be used via E.g electrolysis, acid reactions with various salts, such as bisulfite or sulfites for SO2, leading through drying tubes and such, rather than having the convenience of a tank, bolted to the wall and simply phoning up for replacements

But, let that not be taken to mean I am ungrateful for my good fortune when it comes to access to reagents. I have been a general polymath but in particular, chemistry and biology/biotech and neuropharmacology-mad science enthusiast, and as many people would call me, mad scientist (I disagree, I am mad ABOUT the subjects, but quite sane in their execution, for the most part. Eccentric, certainly, autie? dyed-in-the-wool card carrying (figuratively speaking), kanner's (what some repulsive creatures of the rotten Wakefield ilk would call 'low functioning autistic', but I prefer the term 'classically' or simply using the eponym of the co-discoverer in terms of time period with Dr Hans Asperger, Leo Kanner. But I'm a stimmy, short-bus riding speshul ed at least partially sane spazz-tech with a science bent thats been with me in one form or another pretty much from the moment post exit from the uterus when I was able to first read and devour information. The latter, being something as addictive to me as crack to a crackhead. When I've finished reading a journal article, I want another hit, and another and another and another and... There is, for me, quite simply, never enough. When I've had my latest hit of knowledge, I have to have another one. To the extent that I often as not forgo sleep so I can go through my papers or stay up on the computer using sci-hub.cc for access and sniffing out the next thing to keep me fascinated with the mechanics of the universe's workings. Ask 'why?' and I probably couldn't answer. Other than to return the question in the form 'why then, not?'

Although the thought, even if it were possible, of ever actually learning the very last secret, and having god-like knowledge (although I am not religious, although the theologies of religions are in themselves, interesting, and the psychology behind them)...thats actually something I've often thought about and shuddered inwardly in horror. I couldn't think of many things worse than that, bar death by slow torture or sex with theresa may. Because if I ever WERE to be handed ultimate knowledge of everything, everywhere and everywhen, I'd probably end up shooting myself in the face because there would be nothing new left to fill my metaphorical cup, should it ever runneth over. What a fucking nightmare that would be....*skin crawling sensation*


But it is...its just who I am and what I do. Might strike quite a lot of people as strange, and might mean that I have to struggle to render my speech in such a way as to be available in digestible format for many, but, all said and done, I sure as hell wouldn't change a damn thing. I love it. I still get to see and explore the world with the same intellectual curiosity as a kid, seeing the world brightly glowing for the very first time. Albeit at my age, knowing plenty about the darker aspects of it. Still. Change? fucking hell would I bollocks

Better a knowledge addict than a crack addict (although I'm physically dependent upon opioids currently, due to a childhood joint injury and the sequelae of that). I've done my bioassays of freebase cocaine via the inhalational route, and I see no particular requirement to revisit it, as I have now characterized it well enough in vivo, which actually, was much more satisfying and enjoyable than the being high on crack. If that makes me a freak, then I quite enjoy being a freak. And find the company of other freaks the most satisfying.

 

[Coolwhip]

IME if you want to experience something like the emergence affect of ketamine with NOS then you are going to need a whip cream canister and crack a few canisters into it before even starting, and get close to passing out, even then the experience is so short lived its hard to remember exactly what you experienced, try ketamine if that is what you are looking for, it's as close to conversing to the "soul" of the universe as I could ever imagine, I truely out of body experience, you'll forget who you are and what reality is, if you are human at all, and what reality even means.

And whoever it was that compared the NMDA antagonism of ethanol to real antagonists like ketamine or NOS has clearly never tried either at significant doses, ketamine the first few times can be very uncomfortable and unenjoyable but once you snort enough or get up the courage to inject it(I suggest IM if you want to remember it more than IV) you will have a more out of this universe mind bending experience than could ever be explained. It's more psychedelic with music playing and your eyes closed, but really trippy and confusing if watching something sci-fi like when I recently went through nearly a gram of ketamine watching the TV show travelers(look it up) starting with the premier, it was the craziest thing I started thinking it was real and forgetting who I was and thinking I might have been one of the characters in the show, it was actually really amusing once it wore off. And the only time I came close to thinking I understood the true nature and secrets of the universe(or true chaos of it) was on high dose ibogaine, but while the ibogaine was much deeper the affects were so brain scattering and the ataxia so distracting that I couldn't hold on to as much of the experience, especially since it wasn't enjoyable enough to ever redose again(at least not at those doses, or without an extract instead of pure powdered ibogaine).

In fact k-holing reminds me a lot of high dose salvia, even though the pharmacology is so different.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

For something closer to nitrous, or ether by ways of dissociatives (and with strong similarities to chloroform and the like), sevoflurane would be the one to go for IMO. Whilst I'd not do it often, in sub-general anaesthetic doses its very enjoyable, and it has a far, far faster onset than diethyl ether or DIPE. and using a small bottle (10-25ml capacity to give some headspace for vaporisation, and have it soaked (preferably in the cold, so it doesn't evaporate too rapidly) into an absorbent of some sort like non-synthetic fabric with a bit of filter paper over the top of that, again soaked in a little sevo, delays its total evaporation. And if you go too far, there is little to spill, and if you knock yourself out accidentally, one just drops the container, as opposed to damaging hypoxia. Inhaling from the top of the bottle, automatically draws some air through with it. Doesn't take much though, it is FAR more potent than EtOEt or DIPE. Fast onset, a few breaths in general anaesthesia setting is enough (7 has been sufficient to KO me in that setting before, or almost 7, didn't quite get that far)