Craigslist - When someone demands a refund, what do?

[Seattle_Stranger]

Hey all, I'm not expecting legal advice here, just experience wisdom. I'm pretty sure I'm just fine, but please, someone speak up if you think otherwise.

In short, I sold a set of wheels on Craigslist for $400 and now the guy is demanding a refund after the fact. I had these exact wheels on my car and drove on them no problem for years, and I stated this in my ad. A buyer came to my house (yep, not making this mistake again 8)) and I showed him the wheels. He had the same model car that I had just a few years older, and he asked if these will fit on his car. I told him I know for a fact that they fit his car seeing how they fit mine and also I know several people with the exact year and model car he has that run these exact wheels, and even said that I'd take them back if they didn't fit his car. Not that it matters, but I said that in a rather jovial manner basically indicating that I am 101% confident they fit the model car he says he has. He inspected them for a while, approved, and handed me cash.

A few hours later he says he was further inspecting the wheels and noticed a number is different on the back of one of the wheels that is otherwise the same on the other three. He claims that the number means the wheel is an inch wider. I knew nothing of this and obviously neither of us noticed it earlier. I assured him that I never knew anything of this and that it should not matter because again, I ran these wheels as they are for nearly 3 years with no issues at all, so he should be fine. Even though I said I'd take them back if they don't fit, they DO fit, one of them is simply slightly wider than the others, but they still will fit his car just fine, are perfectly safe to use, and that I never even noticed a difference after driving on them for 3 years. He says he doesn't want to chance it and wants his money back.

I'm pretty sure that I have no obligation to give him his money back. My only two concerns are:

In the ad, I did state that they are 7.5 inches wide all around, because I actually thought they were. It is a surprise to me to find that one is actually 1" wider than the others. Regardless, he inspected them thoroughly when he got to my house, approved of them, and handed me cash. Even though I said they were all 7.5", and one of them happens to be 8.5", not that I'm trying to pull one over on the guy, but isn't it his responsibility to inspect the item before handing over cash for it? I highly doubt he has ANY route of legal recourse, does he? The ad has long since been expired and the publish email has long been leaned from my inbox.

Also, like I said, he now knows where I live. He didn't strike me as a vengeful guy, but you never know. I would like to resolve this peacefully, but I do not want to give him his money back. Quite frankly, I can't afford to.

Advice? Again, I'm not trying to screw anyone, I honestly want to resolve this peacefully, but I do not want to refund his money. I have dealt with SEVERAL similar situations where I was in his shoes (and much, much worse) and I never even considered trying to call the seller back for a refund. It's my responsibility to inspect the item before I hand over cash for it and it is MY problem if I find something I don't like about it after the fact.

Thanks!

 

[lcrlover]

Well, your last paragraph really says it all, as you state "I want to resolve this peacefully"
as I have eaten crow in the past I can tell you it is an unappetizing dish for sure.
Now, do yourself a favor and give the guy his money back. If you cannot afford to then tell the dude when you can return his money. My first choice was to tell the guy to get lost, but now he has your address & that isn't a good option for you any longer.

How about you take back the non-matching rim & give back $100?

 

[hydroazuanacaine]

^a set of three of the same wheel is quite different than a set of 4.

i've read this like 50 times and cannot force myself to agree with my fellow bluelighter. albeit accidentally, you advertised and sold something you didn't have. you specifically say in your post that you don't want to refund his money, but i think that's the right thing to do.

the frustration is understandable. and the fact you cannot really afford to take them back--a big chunk of that is now that you know they are not worth $400? though i imagine some of it is because bills have due dates and the end of the month is approaching. he looked at them, said ok, and left with the tires after handing you the cash. but it's not like he's been driving on them all week. he noticed a few hours later and made a reasonable request. shitty situation.

bluelight doesn't have a legal section anymore, and i'm certainly no lawyer. but i do watch judge judy. i'd put a five up that you'd lose in small claims court. i'd also put a buck down it wouldn't end up there. i'd put full bill down he will not physically hurt you over the issue.

 

[Seattle_Stranger]

^a set of three of the same wheel is quite different than a set of 4.

i've read this like 50 times and cannot force myself to agree with my fellow bluelighter. albeit accidentally, you advertised and sold something you didn't have. you specifically say in your post that you don't want to refund his money, but i think that's the right thing to do.

the frustration is understandable. and the fact you cannot really afford to take them back--a big chunk of that is now that you know they are not worth $400? though i imagine some of it is because bills have due dates and the end of the month is approaching. he looked at them, said ok, and left with the tires after handing you the cash. but it's not like he's been driving on them all week. he noticed a few hours later and made a reasonable request. shitty situation.

bluelight doesn't have a legal section anymore, and i'm certainly no lawyer. but i do watch judge judy. i'd put a five up that you'd lose in small claims court. i'd also put a buck down it wouldn't end up there. i'd put full bill down he will not physically hurt you over the issue.

Thanks for the reply!

Just one thing I want to make sure is clear, the one alleged different wheel is supposedly 1" WIDER, not BIGGER. All 4 wheels are 17" in diameter, one is simply 1" wider than the others, which really should not matter at all. I can attest to 3 years worth of perfectly issue-free, safe driving on this exact set. So, case in point, the 'different' wheel is not very different. You can't even tell that it's different by looking at them, which is probably why neither one of us never noticed.

Details of the actual situation aside, just for conversation's sake, say I had straight-up lied to the guy, I still don't think he has any grounds to sue regardless simply for the fact that it was a private party cash-sale for a used item with no paper work or anything. He can try, but I think the case would be thrown out immediately simply because it falls under the same category as something you bought at a yard sale or a flea market and there no proof of anything. There's no proof the sale even took place, there no proof he didn't swap out one of my wheels with a different one when he got home, and I never stated any intention to provide a money-back guarantee or agreement to accept a return. All of the research I've done thus far points in my favor, saying that as soon as he handed over cash, the deal is done and there is no turning back. The ONLY thing this guy has to hang on to is the fact that he knows where I live now. Again, I'm not afraid of him doing something to me or my home, but if I met him in a parking lot somewhere to do the deal, and then he wanted his money back, and I just kept ignoring his calls, WTF else could he do except hope I don't change my number?

So for argument's sake, let's say he does take it to court. He might try to hang on the fact that in the ad I said they were "7.5 inch width all around" because like I said, I thought they were, they were sold to me that way several years ago, and I never noticed a difference. When he came here and inspected the wheels himself, I remember he checked the numbers on the back of each wheel, and he never said anything about one of them being different so I have no idea how he didn't notice until later. Why would he wait until he got home to tell me one is different, didn't he just check it at my house before handing me cash? Also, like I said 100 times already, I ran these wheels for nearly 3 years without any issues, and there is absolutely no reason he should have any issues either. His decision to be extra-meticulous about the wheels AFTER he had bought them is not my problem. He liked them when he inspected them, and then after he got home he decided he didn't like them anymore, why is that my problem? It's not like he CAN'T use the wheels, they are just fine and I sold them to him as exactly that, wheels that will fit his car, and they do fit, are not unsafe, you can't even visually tell the difference! So, who's to say if he takes me to court, I could easily just accuse him of swapping out one of the wheels I sold him with a different one. What difference would it make? There's no proof of either side's story so I really can't see anyone winning in court.

I'm going to call him tomorrow and be very frank. I'm going to tell him that I want to resolve this diplomatically, and that I am willing to help him out here in some way, however me simply refunding his money is out of the question. I will explain how I have personally been on his side of the deal MANY times on Craigslist, and I never considered calling the seller back and demanding a refund because I simply understood that it is completely my responsibility to do my homework, and thoroughly inspect the item before I hand over cash for it. Hell, just recently, I myself bought a set of wheels that I actually couldn't even mount on the car because the seller lied to me, and ended up having to spend 2x the money...and after all that, I ended up with shitty, beat up, bent wheels anyway. I assume the responsibility on that because I failed to do my part in the sale. I will reiterate that I am in-fact not trying to screw him or pull one over on him, as I am willing to help him out some way , however I would be doing myself an extreme dis-service if I simply refunded your money. Not that it's any of his business, but I got very sick this past week, as did my girlfriend, and every cent of that cash has gone toward the doctor's bills, so it's gone anyway. If I refund his money, that means I, the guy who is under $20k worth of medical debt and just got laid off 2 weeks ago will have to take the money out of my already-over-drawn bank account to give it back to this guy who's looking to buy SPARE wheels for his TRACK CAR and clearly has the money to toss around. So, in the end, I will attempt to resolve this peacefully, and if I need to get a lawyer's advice then I will, but I am not going to just give up easily. He can VERY easily find a singular spare wheel that matches the set, inexpensively, just like I did when I was in the same situation.

I strongly feel like there is no legal recourse. Do you feel like there is something he can sue me for?

 

[alasdairm]

with respect, sounds like you've already decided you're not giving him the money back and you're trying to rationalize the decision because you know it's not the right thing to do (otherwise you wouldn't have written "There's no proof the sale even took place, there no proof he didn't swap out one of my wheels with a different one when he got home").

can you post a link to the original craigslist listing?

you also said: "it should not matter because again, I ran these wheels as they are for nearly 3 years with no issues at all.". doesn't matter to you. does matter to him.

are you really looking for advice here on what to do or for support on a decision to not give him back his cash?

if the former, i say take the wheels back and give him a refund. when you relist the wheels on craigslist, ensure you say that the article(s) is/are sold "as is".

alasdair

 

[freddy47]

Personally I would give him a refund just to avoid any possible hassle that might arise.

Also the fact that you sold something that didn't exactly match the description you gave seems to me a reasonable reason for refunding him the money.

As for him suing you? I highly doubt it. It would probably just end up being a huge waste of time for both of you. And most people are not going to go mess with someone in their home over 400 bucks. Unless said people are drug dealers and you ripped them off which obviously is not the case here.

I fully understand the part about the medical bills. That is a pretty shitty situation. But personally I think giving him the refund is the right thing to do.

 

[hydroazuanacaine]

if you don't have the money, that's all there is to it. the right thing to do falls out the equation. at least you are calling him and not trying to just avoid the fact something off happened. though there is a chance that is just going to keep you in contact with the problem.

you just want to know if he has any legal recourse?

 

[freddy47]

if you don't have the money, that's all there is to it. the right thing to do falls out the equation.

true.

I highly doubt the guy is going to sue him for 400 bucks. But if he does I dunno I'm not a legal expert, but there are court fees to pay and the hassle of having to show up to court and essentially argue over how one tire is one inch wider than the buyer thought.

Seems to me even a small claims court judge might find this to be a very trivial thing to complain about. But then again the OP did make a mistake so I don't know. The guy might just say that he felt like you lied intentionally about the width of said tire and award him the money.

 

[Max Power]

i'm certainly no lawyer. but i do watch judge judy.

 

[freddy47]

Just curious though OP. Do you actually live in Seattle/King county area? Or in some other county? I'm from Seattle as well so I am just curious...

Also found this link that might help you more than any of us can.

http://community.lawyers.com/forums/p/113447/552884.aspx

So after reading some of this. I'd say yeah he does have legal recourse. In which case it would be your words against his if he takes you to small claims court.

 

[alasdairm]

^ add to which the text of his bluelight post - in which op essentially admits he misrepresented the item - is now in the google cache...

alasdair

 

[thujone]

ensure you say that the article(s) is/are sold "as is".

There's no need because that's already how Craigslist sales go, legally. Just like someone who holds a garage sale is under no obligation to refund money, neither is anyone selling stuff on Craigslist. Neither, for that matter, is anyone selling stuff on eBay, which is why PayPal chose to arbitrate claims to offer buyers guaranteed protection and prevent eBay from becoming a den of thieves.

 

[Seattle_Stranger]

Alright, thank you all for your replies. I am still quite firm on not feeling like I need to refund his money. I check that link that was posted above, and nothing on that page says to me that he has any kind of legal recourse. If anything, all the posts on that page seem to agree with me, basically telling the guy "Tough luck, you should have tested it". I hope I am clear when I say I am NOT trying to get away with something, I strongly do not feel like I did anything wrong. I'm not trying to screw the guy or pull one over on him or looking for a way out. The basis for my beliefs is that I have been using Craigslist for nearly a decade and have bought COUNTLESS things on CL such as wheels, cars, furniture, appliances, I even met my girlfriend on CL!!! I can assure you, nearly EVERY single time I buy something on CL, when I get home I notice something about it that is disappointing, and in many cases, would have been a deal breaker if I noticed it before handing over cash. However, I am a reasonable person, and I understand that a cash deal is a cash deal and I have no business calling the guy back demanding a refund, because when it comes down to it, I failed to do my part and thoroughly inspect the item. Having said that, the one far and few between occasion that I decide to sell something on CL, within hours the guy is all whining at me to get him money back? Why the fuck should I show that courtesy and SCREW MYSELF OVER when no one has ever shown it to me?!

This guy is buying a SPARE set of BMW wheels for his toy, side project, TRACK BMW race car....and here I am, with a bank account in negative numbers, with both myself and my gf sick as dogs and all the cash that I got for the wheels is now GONE and spent on doctor visits. Let's weigh that out, guy with money to toss around on his BMW race car, and then me with literally no money, laid off last week, under mountains of medical debt, and never not once expected a refund from anyone....and I'M the one who needs to fork over cash to this well-to-do, overly-entitled poor little rich boy pansy ass with his BMW race car?




In conclusion, I'm going to very calmly call him later. I'm going to ask for his stand point on the issue and I will clearly explain mine. I will (again, calmly and diplomatically) explain to him why I do not feel like I need to refund his money, and he will probably tell me why he feels that I do. I will explain to him that I am a reasonable person and I would like to reach a compromise, however a refund is out of the question, especially seeing how the cash is now my doctor's hands. I will also explain about my past CL experiences and how I have never, ever even considered asking someone for a refund because I have always understand that if I fail to thoroughly inspect the item before I hand over cash for it, THAT'S ON ME and I can't hold someone else responsible, even if the item isn't what they described. When they place the item there in front of me, that's them saying "Here is EXACTLY what I want to sell you, here's have a look for yourself." If you hand over cash, you approve of what I just advertised and if you decide later on that you no longer want the item, that's not the seller's problem. If he continues to insist and be selfish, then the deal I will make with him is that I will do what I can to find a replacement wheel for him that matches the set, I may have already found one. I might just go buy this one singular wheel and toss it on his fucking lawn with a note saying don't ever call me again or else I'm filing for harassment. And that will be the end of it.

I understand why he may feel like I owe him a refund, but he obviously has the cliche "Seattle-sense-of-entitlement" where pretty uch everyone thinks they are FAR more important than they actually are, and that everyone should cater to them, everyone owes them, everyone should wait for them, everyone should JUMP for them when they snap their fingers, but not for a single split second will they ever consider the well being of others because they're so caught up in what they want. I guarantee if he stopped and considered my standpoint for a few minutes, he'd reconsider and forget the refund because he'd realize that he's being unreasonable. Either way, I'm going to handle this later, and we'll see where it goes.

Thanks for all the help guys.

 

[badandwicked]

I wish you could read your posts back through our eyes and see what we see.

 

[Seattle_Stranger]

I wish you could read your posts back through our eyes and see what we see.

What is it you see? You guys think I owe him a refund, I get that. I do not think I owe him a refund, you get that too. Bottom line is that I am going to try to reach a compromise with the guy, I'm not going to just ignore him. Is that not reasonable? Compromise? Do you think because I simply did not fold and go run and hand his money back that there's something wrong with me?? Why am I the one who needs to bend over backwards and he just gets to sit there on my set of perfectly good wheels while I run around and clean up the mess from his failure to do a proper inspection....all because he just wants to be extra picky???? I would NEVER EVER subject this on a seller that I bought something from, and I have been WAY FAR MORE dicked over by a CL seller than this, and I did nothing about it because I am a fucking man about it and I assume responsibility for my own actions.

The very wheels that I put on my car to replace these ones that I sold, OMFG I got WAY more dicked over on those than this guy with my wheels is, and I didn't even so much as consider contacting them. To make a long story short, I bought a set of 4 wheels for $450, only for them to be really beat up, spray painted on, 2 bad tires, and one of the wheels actually didn't even fit my car, so I actually could not even use the wheels. Then when I bought a replacement wheel, that one had a knifed tire!!! Then after all was said and done, the fucking wheels are bent to shit....so here I am $800+ in the hole with fucked up wheels, and did I go crying back to the seller? NO. Because I don't try to hold other people accountable for my oversights.

My point is that there is nothing that says I owe him a dime or a minute of my time, so anything that I do for him is purely out of my own kindness. Yes, it is understood that HE CLAIMS that one of the wheels was not as advertised, I get this too, but please explain why it is that I am the only person who "needs to be more understanding" while no one considers my situation? I didn't sell him something he can't use, there's absolutely nothing wrong with the wheels I sold him! He didn't notice anything wrong with them, so why is it a problem now? He's being too picky about the wheels, and notices one little itty bitty number is different, which he *thinks* means it's wider, however he can't even visually tell if it actually is different, so he actually doesn't even really know for sure...how does that make something wrong with me??? He's demanding a refund for something that he can't even verify is wrong with my item. WTF?

Regardless, like I said, I don't HAVE to do jack shit, however because I'm reasonable, I'm going to offer a compromise with him, and I'm going to see if I can get this spare wheel for him so he will have the complete set, and a whole extra FREE spare wheel out of the deal, WTF else could he want at that point?

Please explain what it is that "you see" wrong with this?

 

[nekointheclouds]

What we see is that you started this thread "seeking advise" from bluelighters, but you havent considered anyone's opinion on the situation. Instead you have just defended your stance on not wanting to give him a refund even though every one of us told you we personally thought that immoral. Its clear that you had decided from the get go that you were not going to refund his money, you were just hoping we would help you feel better about it.

 

[lcrlover]

The way it usually works for me is Buyer Beware. Just because people would like everything to be coming up roses, every time anyone buys from a private seller, you can screw-up & accidentally wind up with an item that closely resembles the thing you thought you were buying. Truth is, there is a reason why buying this set of rims would cost lots more money if they were all shiney & new. I don't think the aim of this forum should be to beat you up about the crappy deal. Maybe you just saved this poor bastard $400,000 on his next real-estate deal, by learning him this valuable lesson-- See, you aren't so bad after all, heh heh.

BTW I have been flamed on forums before myself, I guess the lesson here is not to get too comfortable

 

[Cyc]

With things like this, where there's no receipt and buyer has a chance to inspect the item, once money changes hands, all sales are final.

I've had someone come back at me over a video card that I sold for $20. He gets it home and immediately e-mails me that it doesn't work. I help him troubleshoot the issue over e-mail, narrow it down to a BIOS setting and I finally get it working for him. Then he complained that the fan was too loud, so I told him to just unplug it, as I didn't use the fan and it isn't needed. Then he tells me he's generally just unhappy and he wants a refund. All this for a lousy $20 which, like you, was spent before it even hit my hand. I politely told him that it wasn't worth the time or the gas money for either of us. The e-mails stopped.

The next day I go outside and I've got a flat tire. Now I can't say 100% that this guy came back to my house and slashed my tire for the sake of $20 (after all, he wouldn't really know it was my car and not, say my roommates) but I did find it strange that my tire was punctured the day after this dispute.

Either way the fucker didn't get his $20 back. My e-mail troubleshooting for his stupid mistake was worth more than $20. The thing that killed me, was that he just assumed I'd take it back. This, after he lowballed me on my initial asking price.

My point is, with places like Craigslist, you have to be careful. Some people have pretty interesting ideas of what they're entitled to in these transactions and it's not like they come with a manual. It's just two random people getting together to swap things. Buyer beware.. but also seller beware.

 

[alasdairm]

Some people have pretty interesting ideas of what they're entitled to in these transactions...

q.e.d.



alasdair

 

[Seattle_Stranger]

What we see is that you started this thread "seeking advise" from bluelighters, but you havent considered anyone's opinion on the situation. Instead you have just defended your stance on not wanting to give him a refund even though every one of us told you we personally thought that immoral. Its clear that you had decided from the get go that you were not going to refund his money, you were just hoping we would help you feel better about it.

I said that due to my financial situation I cannot afford to give him a refund so I was asking for alternative suggestions for a peaceful outcome. Surely, you must have accidentally over-looked the ~5 different times I stated that in my posts above.

It's funny that this thread is the only thread on the entire net that I can find of a similar situation where the seller is actually getting flamed. Every other thread I've seen like this one is unanimous replies basically saying "Tough luck buyer"!! I was NOT looking for such replies, as I said, I am not trying to screw the guy and leave him high and dry, I want to resolve this in a fair way for both sides, and me handing him a refund is not a fair outcome for both sides. I'll reiterate that I can't even afford to give him a refund, so it's out of the question. Yet you'll probably continue to inform me how I am immoral and should just give him a refund. 8)

Anyway, I handled the situation myself, as I said I was going to do. I called him back and explained how I have absolutely no obligation to do anything. I told him that I do not intend to screw him, and I'm going to be reasonable about it, I am not going to simply issue him a refund, however I will (and already have) source a replacement wheel that is the proper dimensions, and will trade him for the mis-matched wheel. I'm even going to pick up the wheel for him tonight and then will deliver it to him. He said that he accepts and will be satisfied with this.

Still think I'm immoral?