Could it be something stronger than Modafinil?

[RoroSpace]

Hello, I'm nvo here is not know much about chemistry, euq uerisa whether it would be possible something stronger than modafinil, type the NZT, I know NZT and a fiction but which likely to be possible to create something like this? Would very dangerous, how far a substance can go?


My English and shit, forgive me

 

[Solipsis]

Hi and welcome,

there are actually a number of 'limitless' threads around the forum.
for example:
http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/564312-The-movie-Limitless-Is-it-possible
http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/790888-Modafinil-Experiences-The-Limitless-Drug-NZT-48
http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/296712-The-Big-amp-Dandy-Nootropics-Thread

It's worth noting that modafinil is an eugeroic (wakefulness promotor) and while it has some nootropic effects (cognitive boosting or supporting), it is questionable whether this is rather a subtle stimulant effect or just limited cognitive deterioration from tiredness.
NZT is indeed fictional but it is basically an idealized (disregarding side effects) nootropic drug.

I find something like sunifiram to be more performance / cognitive enhancing personally, and noopept is more limited to me - maybe a potential adaptogen but that is an even different sort of application. But sunifiram should only be taken on occasion. For daily use aniracetam + choline source is much better.

Nobody can answer what the future will bring in terms of nootropics but we do have a very far way to go until we are anywhere close to NZT. For now, that's science fiction and the nootropics we do have are more reasonable instead of unrealistically fantastic.

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

Out of every relatively mainstream substance, modafinil does have the greatest reputation for enhancing cognition/nootropic action.

Few deny that modafinil will always sit on this proverbial throne. But it's pretty damn safe. Issues that dog other stimulants (addiction, crash, irritability, lack of creativity) are present at a much lesser level in modafinil.

When you say "stronger", of course there are drugs that produce more of a powerful high, like adderall. But a lot of debate surrounds the question of whether adderall actually improves cognition, or just makes people feel smarter on account of being high. My reading has led me to conclude that both modafinil and adderall enhance cognition, but modafinil in many more ways, and with greater efficacy and less of a toll on the body.

 

[Solipsis]

Oh.. I would always have answered piracetam as sitting on that throne as far as reputation goes, as the 'original' nootropic. Granted, it's pretty weak and I'd probably consider modafinil to be better. But I'd rate aniracetam or sunifiram as definitely higher as nootropics than modafinil which again I deem a stimulant (well wakefulness promotor) which is like you said favorable in its lack of side effects. Not really saying it is not nootropic at all though, but not a superior nor a typical one either.
I don't think that cognition supporting by taking away tiredness is actually enough to call it really cognitive enhancing. Being active and productive is IMO categorically different from actual enhancement of your thinking. What brain function can be improved in sleep deprived is certainly marvellous but you cannot really conclude that it has the same potential in healthy rested people.

On something like aniracetam I can feel like the bandwidth of my thinking is actually broadened - I can get more crisp and saturated vision, and a few other effects that are strikingly similar to how NZT is displayed. Qualitatively that is, because quantitatively it is definitely not enough to actually make claims about IQ or performance. It also makes more sense since action involving AMPA and choline are much more associated with cognition than dopamine which - of course it does many things - is more about tasks, expectation, reward and thus activity and stamina rather than performance.
Sure if you take clean stimulants like that you can get improvement of your performance but it's hardly a selective cognitive effect.

With sunifiram though I would actually say that the difference in performance (I measure it by practicising and playing piano, that always tells me a lot), but I don't know if there is dopamine / stim action involved in tandem with ampakine / cholinergic turnover effect?

Maybe it's a little bit a matter of semantics or opinion, but fwiw I believe we can do better than trying to find an ideal stimulant and use it as nootropic because like I argued it's not a selective approach. At best, subtle stimulation (like in a combo regimen or if sunifiram indeed has dual action - if i am correct it appears it reduces dopamine deterioration by which i think they mean autooxidation?) may be part of optimalizing nootropic effect of other drugs.... but too much stimulation becomes counterproductive and not being selective on cognition there are still side-effects like insomnia.
I think what you want is ampakine effect, effect on LTP, neurotrophic effects, probably some more general cns stimulation, perhaps some adaptogenic effects could help as well.

Also worth reading about are e.g. Hydergine, although I think it is not only expensive but 5HT2B agonism also makes it unwise to use frequently. Still, I can imagine feeling like the mind is crystal clear a la LSD but without the impairment that usually comes with tripping and the distortion.
And also semaks and selank which are even more expensive, and I guess not 'typically' nootropic but rather adaptogenic being able to reduce the effects of stress. Seems like it could make something like a higher rate / mental activity much more sustainable.

Hey is it true that modafinil helps to allow some of the things that happen in the brain during (normally only) sleep, where metabolites / certain proteins etc that accumulate during wakefulness are cleaned up?

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

Pramiracetam is even better than ani', and leaves piracetam sucking anal mucus squirtings left by a dying gutter rat as it commits suicide by eating a massive quantity of deadly-hot seafood vindaloo and then shits itself to death.

Been years since I've taken it though, but I just happened to find some left from a previous order in a baggie. Can someone remind me of the general dose ranges for pram? because I am about to dose some, in order to be bright eyed and bushy tailed and less forgetful, so as to be safe in the lab. After, mind you, I also take a large dose of fried fillet steak, slathered in my special spice mix and fly agaric marinade

 

[Solipsis]

I don't like pramiracetam tbh... less effective for me than aniracetam and there were kinda unusual side effects - ironically i can't recall if it was headaches or memory problems / fogginess, probably not headaches since those are very common with racetams particularly if you don't supplement choline sources. Although I almost always did.

250 mg is a pram dose. Just about.

Racetams are extraordinary potentiators of many kinds of drugs. They really don't seem to be too picky...

Most of them left piracetam in the dust as a fiery-ringed butthole donning slumdog concessionaire, it's just a bit weaksauce like plain benzodiazepine as parent compound is, it's no vindaloosauce.. but I find aniracetam impressive making up for that. Oxiracetam is stimulating by the way, so another example of a 'dual action' one although I'm unsure of the MOA behind the stimulation... and it's not the promising answer to my suspecting question about that magical mix of pharmacological action.
If not racetams or racerams (sunifiram and unifiram have quite different structures so not sure what this family comprises), then at least this general direction of ampakines is what I have faith in. I'm acquainted with countless of monoaminergic drugs, that's not where it's at for me. Modafinil, it's fine, it's decent, works in a clean fashion... but I don't see it being refined into 'NZT'. May lead to other big wins tho.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

1/4g seems like a very low dose for pram, as I remember. I used to take it considerably higher, I just can't remember WHAT, since its a long time ago, and I actually do have a functional mnemonic impairment, and quite severe (for instance, I left a container of SOCl2 out for long enough that the quantity poured from the main reagent bottle almost entirely evaporated, and since I was masked up, I only noticed once my eyes started to sting like a bugger from the SO2/HCl fumes. Left a big jug of MeOH with the cap off, went to sort that out and in doing so, turned away from the thionyl, and it all hydrolysed by the time I remembered. Thankfully not a massive quantity and thankfully I most certainly did not leave the top off my actual bottle of the stuff and in doing so, thus waste precious reagents. Can get more SOCl2 any time I want some, without the slightest effort, but still, its getting to be one of my reagents that are flavour of the decade, lol. So versatile, lovely and quick in its reactions and breaks down to gaseous byproducts, for lovely simple workups. I'd hate for what I have to just have up and evaporated, and not just because the house would become uninhabitable, as would the lab section thereof, but because it is definitely one of my favourite reagents for many things at the moment)

What would folks call the upper ceiling for pramiracetam, per dose?

One thing I don't like about it though, is the way that it has that absolutely atrocious taste. Tastes nasty as all hell as I remember it.