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  • Film & TV Moderators: ghostfreak

Film Contagion

Rate this movie!

  • [img]http://i.bluelight.ru/g//543/1star.gif[/img]

    Votes: 2 16.7%
  • [img]http://i.bluelight.ru/g//543/2stars.gif[/img]

    Votes: 3 25.0%
  • [img]http://i.bluelight.ru/g//543/3stars.gif[/img]

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • [img]http://i.bluelight.ru/g//543/4stars.gif[/img]

    Votes: 4 33.3%
  • [img]http://i.bluelight.ru/g//543/5stars.gif[/img]

    Votes: 3 25.0%

  • Total voters
    12
^Not trying to change your mind. Like I said its a matter of personal taste. Nor do I really care if you didn't participate in this douchebag behavior because obviously you don't care about other people trying to enjoy the movie if you thought that type of behavior is funny. If you didn't like the film you could have left.

Just saying at least have some respect for other people.



Then why didn't you go out and get a refund? I don't care if it wasn't interesting to you. All I'm saying is why disrespect the other people in the theater?

As for it being generic and overhyped. I don't see how its generic. Watch any other film with the same subject matter and you will see that this is obviously not true. And I didn't see too much advertising for it so I don't think it was over hyped at all.

Um buddy I already told you I didn't participate so your argument towards me is invalid. I can't control what others do. Instead I just kept my eyes open even though I wanted to nod off.

Also my above posts clearly explain why we were there and it wasn't our choice. Its called being in a group home and you're force to go to things you don't want to see.... And if we chose to stay at the placement we would of gotten restriction. So you can thank the government run programs.

And in america the movie was overhyped.... You always saw commercials for it on and the previews made it look really good (but it wasn't)... They even would show extended previews for the movie on certain channels.
 
Um buddy I already told you I didn't participate so your argument towards me is invalid. I can't control what others do. Instead I just kept my eyes open even though I wanted to nod off.

Umm dude or dudette I already said that I don't care that you didn't participate. I still think you acted immature for thinking it was funny as it shows your amount of respect for other people. Its all about attitude and yours frankly needs adjusting.

Also my above posts clearly explain why we were there and it wasn't our choice. Its called being in a group home and you're force to go to things you don't want to see.... And if we chose to stay at the placement we would of gotten restriction. So you can thank the government run programs.

Fair enough. Doesn't change the fact that you and your friends are immature.

And in america the movie was overhyped.... You always saw commercials for it on and the previews made it look really good (but it wasn't)... They even would show extended previews for the movie on certain channels.

Fine it was over hyped. But generic? Obviously you don't know that much about movies if you thought this movie was generic.
 
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Also on your comment about critics and film makers not being always right.

Go to any movie review site. The movies that are universally panned by critics are undeniably shitty movies. The movies that are universally praised (like Contagion) are usually very well made very enjoyable movies to all but the slightest minority of detractors/haters.
 
TL;DR..... Dude it was just a movie. Anyways like you said everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

/end of story
 
Dude it was just a movie. Anyways like you said everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Ahh yeah and I'm voicing my opinion on the matter. Whats your point? This is the film discussion sub forum. If you don't like discussing the merits or demerits of a film then GTFO.
 
Ahh yeah and I'm voicing my opinion on the matter. Whats your point? This is the film discussion sub forum. If you don't like discussing the merits or demerits of a film then GTFO.

Did I say I didn't? No. It just doesn't make sense going back and forth when we both already know the other one does really care... Their mind was already made up. Anyways I left my feelings about this movie awhile ago and so yeah I'm done. Let's not further derail the thread.
 
How is it derailing a thread when you are talking about why the film is good or isn't?
 
^Posts which also included parts about why I think the movie doesn't suck. But being that you didn't read the whole post I can see why you think that was the sum total of all my posts.

That part about you and your friends being immature was a side note for me. Its called movie watching etiquette. But as far as that goes I'm willing to let that drop. I just hope I never end up in the same theater with you and your friends.
 
The majority of film critics and film makers would disagree.

This is a typically ignorant response to a minority viewpoint. In a political context, it is downright dangerous. Although you may plead innocence (as people often do after making such a statement), you were clearly implying - to some extent - that majority rules when it comes to art. Which clearly it does not.

Steven Soderbergh is one of the best film makers around these days.

I strongly disagree.

You would be hard pressed to find anybody within the film making community that would agree with you

Again, I disagree. In fact, I know many people in the industry and from my observations the film was not very popular with insiders. Even if it was though, I don't see your point. You can't squash (or discredit/invalidate) opinions because they do not reflect the majority. If you do, you're basically a fascist.

I live in Hong Kong right now and am Cantonese and American and I didn't for one second think that any scene in the movie was racist in the slightest.

Some people picked it up. Some people didn't.

As for your criticisms about the style of storytelling. Its what I think Steven Soderbergh calls hyperlink cinema in which he tries to tell the stories of multiple characters. He has done this in other films as well such Traffic which won him the best director Oscar.

Traffic was not a similar style of film. There was far more distance from characters in Contagion. Traffic infiltrated family life and how it is affected by drugs; Contagion stood back, behind a quarantine screen and observed.

a) I'm not sure why you're making the comparison.
b) Traffic was a much better film - the fact that they have the same director means nothing. He directed Ocean's 11, 12 & 13; I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you don't think they are good films.
c) I don't care what silly name he has for multi-protagonist narratives. This one was unsuccessful in my, and many other people's, opinions.
d) Academy Awards don't mean shit. Gary Oldman has never been nominated for Best Actor, for example. Does that mean he is unworthy of nomination? Clearly not. It's all politics and bullshit.

The overriding themes IMO are panic, its results and how some people try to exploit that panic, and the quiet heroism of medical and social workers that were trying to stem the epidemic. Its hard to tell a story like that without telling it from multiple angles and characters.

Nobody is criticizing the fact that there is multiple protagonists. The problem is that none of the individual stories were compelling enough to justify a feature. The film, instead, relied heavily on the virus as it's focal character - playing off the fear (germaphobia) of the modern world. It is, essentially, fear mongering with a bunch of A-list actors. The quiet heroism of medical and social workers is not a theme and panic is something that has been explored throughout the history of cinema, often far more successfully than in Contagion. I am happy to provide you with a long list of examples if I have to.

Finally, Contagion didn't receive "universal acclaim" from critics.

For example, here is a particularly succint quote from a metacritic review that gave it 40/100 (incidentally the same score both faded and I gave it - and, ironically, the current majority vote in the above poll):

Contagion is certainly the most realistic portrayal of a global pandemic I've seen, but that doesn't make it the most entertaining, or even all that intellectually interesting.

I agree absolutely with this statement. It is not a thought provoking film. In fact, it is rather mindless. Why don't you attempt to prove me wrong by actually refering to the film, rather than just picking on the minority opinion?

:)

Have a nice day.
 
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This is a typically ignorant response to a minority viewpoint. In a political context, it is downright dangerous. Although you may plead innocence (as people often do after making such a statement), you were clearly implying - to some extent - that majority rules when it comes to art. Which clearly it does not.

Way to take my argument completely out of context bro. The fact of the matter is I agree with MOST critics when it comes to film. The fact is when critics universally pan a film (or vice versa) I USUALLY agree with them. But not all the time. Yes its a matter of personal taste. But often times the majority of critics have good taste. But I don't always follow the critics bandwagon. Calling someone ignorant just because they agree with critics is idiotic. Agreeing with the majority opinion once in awhile doesn't mean they always push for the majority opinion.

I strongly disagree.

Fair enough.

Again, I disagree. In fact, I know many people in the industry and from my observations the film was not very popular with insiders. Even if it was though, I don't see your point. You can't squash (or discredit/invalidate) opinions because they do not reflect the majority. If you do, you're basically a fascist.

Wow calling someone a fascist because of a film. Sounds like you like hyperbole there. Still I stand by my statement. And I'm not squashing anybodies opinion. I'm attacking sure but this is a forum. People are allowed to talk about why they dislike a film or like it. If I was a fascist I would come to your house and execute you for having a differing opinion. Not talk about it but put a Luger to your head and blow your brains out.

Some people picked it up. Some people didn't.

Please enlighten me as to how the film is racist.

Traffic was not a similar style of film. There was far more distance from characters in Contagion. Traffic infiltrated family life and how it is affected by drugs; Contagion stood back, behind a quarantine screen and observed.

a) I'm not sure why you're making the comparison.
b) Traffic was a much better film - the fact that they have the same director means nothing. He directed Ocean's 11, 12 & 13; I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you don't think they are good films.
c) I don't care what silly name he has for multi-protagonist narratives. This one was unsuccessful in my, and many other people's, opinions.
d) Academy Awards don't mean shit. Gary Oldman has never been nominated for Best Actor, for example. Does that mean he is unworthy of nomination? Clearly not. It's all politics and bullshit.

A. I am making the comparison because they were both directed by the same director.

B. Matter of opinion. Although I agree Traffic is a better film by far. But that doesn't invalidate the quality of this film. But yeah the Oceans 11 franchise sucks. Don't disagree with you there. But great directors make bad films all the time. Martin Scorcese has New York New York etc etc

C. Many? If the general consensus is anything to go on again I'd say the majority of people liked it. This is not fascism its simply the fucking truth. What "insiders" do you know that can actually back up your statement.

D. Gary Oldman is one of my favorite actors. And yes I agree the Oscars are mostly political. But does that necessarily mean that no one who has ever won the Oscar doesn't deserve the nod of respect from fellow film makers and actors? That is basically what the Oscars are supposed to be about. The respect and admiration of fellow artists.

Nobody is criticizing the fact that there is multiple protagonists. The problem is that none of the individual stories were compelling enough to justify a feature. The film, instead, relied heavily on the virus as it's focal character - playing off the fear (germaphobia) of the modern world. It is, essentially, fear mongering with a bunch of A-list actors. The quiet heroism of medical and social workers is not a theme and panic is something that has been explored throughout the history of cinema, often far more successfully than in Contagion. I am happy to provide you with a long list of examples if I have to.

Fear mongering? I disagree. But whatever. And there is a difference between film snobbery and film assholery, which you are displaying right now. To first accuse someone of fascism because they agree with the majority opinion and then declare them ignorant is well an asshole thing to do. But I disagree for what its worth. Of course Panic has been explored in other films. But how does that make Contagion a bad example of how the theme is explored. As for the heroism bit. If you missed that bit then you probably didn't even watch the film. A researcher testing the vaccine out on herself and then exposing herself to the virus and then refusing to be recognized for it? Yeah not heroic at all right? Medical workers continuing on their work even though it has become all but hopeless etc.

Finally, Contagion didn't receive "universal acclaim" from critics.

For example, here is a particularly succint quote from a metacritic review that gave it 40/100 (incidentally the same score both faded and I gave it - and, ironically, the current majority vote in the above poll):

The film has a overall score of 70 out of a hundred on metacritic and on rottentomatoes 84% of critics gave it a positive review. So yeah I concede that point although it is still the majority. But since you already don't care what critics say why are we talking about their opinions anyway?

agree absolutely with this statement. It is not a thought provoking film. In fact, it is rather mindless. Why don't you attempt to prove me wrong by actually refering to the film, rather than just picking on the minority opinion?

I have. I thought it was a thought provoking film. Made me think about how encroaching on the natural habitats of wild animals that humanity usually doesn't have a lot of contact with can help viruses cross species. But I'm sure you dismissed that part as irrelevant or fear mongering. Also the idea of social distancing I thought was interesting. The fact that everyday things like hugging your mom or shaking hands with someone can be become deadly vectors for the virus was an interesting thing to ponder.

In the end though I think we will just have to agree to disagree because I don't see this discussion going anywhere if you insist on calling people who disagree with you fascists and ignorant.

And you have yourself a nice day as well.
 
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I think we got off to a bad start. Let my clarify a couple of things.

I didn't call you ignorant because you agree with critics, nor did I say that you always agree with the majority. I said it is ignorant to stamp on minority viewpoints, which it is. I didn't call you a fascist either. What I said was, invalidating minorities is basically fascism. However, if you agree that you are indeed stamping on minority viewpoints, which evidently you do (given the offence), then yes you are in my opinion an intellectual fascist. If you don’t want to be labeled as such, then (in future) don’t attempt to use the weight of majority opinion to smother the minority. I have little tolerance for the “majority rules” mentality; it has no place in a civilized an intelligent discussion. I'm sorry if that offends you.

Why Traffic is irrelevant.

Francis Ford Coppola directed Apocalypse Now and Peggy Sue Got Married, but the later has little relevance in the context of a discussion about the former. In other words, directors are capable of making good films (like Traffic) and bad films (like Contagion). The fact that Traffic is a good film doesn't really mean anything.

Why I am not going to open my address book.

I am not going to reveal personal details, which – given the nature of this website – I’m sure comes as no surprise; you’ve asked me for something you know I will not deliver, thereby setting up an inevitable failure on my part. If you chose to believe that I don’t know anyone in the film industry, that's up to you.

Re: the Academy.

There have been some deserving winners of Academy Awards, but that doesn't mean that an Acadamy award is a sign of quality.

Fear mongering? I disagree.

Why do you disagree?

Re: heroism.

Here's a brief analysis of a couple of short scenes:

1> The doctor (don't know her name, don't care about her) goes to see her dying father (who hasn't been referenced at any point throughout the film) and tells him that she's sacrificing herself for the good of humanity...

This is not an effective exploration of "heroism." It is flat, forced drama. It is easy. The act in itself is so noble, that it forces an emotional reaction. But, it might as well be an isolated scene, separate from the narrative. There is nothing leading up to it. We don't care about the doctor. It is – entirely – plot-driven, much like the rest of the film.

2> Kate Winslet's character is dying. Beside her is another man who is dying. He is begging for a blanket. She weakly attempts to push her blanket off, in his direction. Clearly she doesn't care about herself, even in the face of death...

Again, an act that is so noble it provokes an emotional response from the audience. I didn't care about her, nor did I believe her as a person. The gesture was cheesy and unnecessary.

3> Lawrence Fishburn gives his vaccine to the son of the guy who cleans the toilets.

This was the cheesiest and most forced "hero" moment. The cleaner character and his relationship with Fishburn was artificial right from word go and I predicted that something like this was going to happen. It was a fairly obvious Hollywood set-up; they don’t establish minor characters for no reason.

For a film that supposedly opts for realism over drama (according to the critics), there were a strangely large number of dramatic scenes. The worst of which is when Damon's daughter re-unites with her boyfriend at their quarantined version of the Prom. Do we care about the daughter? Or the boyfriend? Is the Prom relevant in the context of a realistic, clinical and detached film about contagious viruses?

The film doesn't function as a human drama or a cold thriller; it is an awkward hybrid of the two. It wants to keep us distant from the characters, but at the same time it wants us to care about them. It wants to simultaneously be non-drama and drama. And, in doing so, it fails - to some extent - at both. This is what I meant by, "he (Soderbergh) tried to do too much."

(Contagion) has a overall score of 70 out of a hundred and on rottentomatoes 84% of critics gave it a positive review. But since you already don't care what critics say why are we talking about their opinions anyway?

I pay attention to certain critics. I find it is best to find a critic that you are on par with, rather than taking a broad average as an indication of quality. People these days don't even bother reading reviews, they just look at the numbers. To answer your question, though, I was addressing your erroneous assertion that the film received universal acclaim. It didn’t.

Pleased enlighten me as to how the film is racist.

Given your tone, I suspect you might be less than open-minded, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. I didn't say the film was racist. I said borderline racist. I wasn't outraged or offended by it; I don't think that the director was intentionally being racist, he probably didn't think about it. Hollywood has a long tradition of accidentally making films that present non-white people (and more specifically non-Americans) in a negative fashion. This is an enormous generalization, but: typically the Americans are the heroes and the foreigners are antagonists/ causes of antagonism. I'm not just talking about Air Force One and 24. It's wider spread than that.

In Contagion, a disease spreads rapidly across the world. We see short montage scenes in various other countries. Maybe a minute total. The bulk of the story takes places in the states. All the heroes are American. This is typical. Add to the mix a mischievous and immoral Britt with bad teeth and a gang of Asian abductees. Note: the Americans are all making sacrifices. They are noble. There is no non-American heroism, at all. And then the cherry on the icing.

The final scene in the film. Gwyenth Paltrow is in a fairly nice establishment. She's not eating street food. I've been to HK over twenty times. The place she contracted the disease was a lot nicer than what the majority of what the city has to offer. By the look of it, I’d say at least 4 stars. Anyway, the guy beside her spits big gobs of saliva onto his gambling chips and invites her to join in. In the spirit of being open minded to other cultures and embracing HK, she does. She spits on his gambling chips. And we cringe. Paltrow’s character is warm and loving; not your typical tourist, she exposes herself to culture. She joins in. So much so that she gets a photo taken with the chef. Who, of course, doesn’t bother to wash his hands after touching raw meat. He just rubs them on his clothes.

To sum up: the world is threatened as a result of a lack of hygiene in an Asian country, and the United States saves the day. The American characters all make enormous sacrifices. The non-American characters all make mistakes. Racism in Hollywood films is so common, that most of the time it goes unnoticed. As I said initially, some people picked it up, others didn’t.

:)

Would you care for a biscuit; cup of tea, perhaps?
 
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I think we got off to a bad start. Let my clarify a couple of things.

Yes I think so as well.

I didn't call you ignorant because you agree with critics, nor did I say that you always agree with the majority. I said it is ignorant to stamp on minority viewpoints, which it is. I didn't call you a fascist either. What I said was, invalidating minorities is basically fascism. However, if you agree that you are indeed stamping on minority viewpoints, which evidently you do (given the offence), then yes you are in my opinion an intellectual fascist. If you don’t want to be labeled as such, then (in future) don’t attempt to use the weight of majority opinion to smother the minority. I have little tolerance for the “majority rules” mentality; it has no place in a civilized an intelligent discussion. I'm sorry if that offends you.

I'm aligning myself to the majority opinion because that happens to be the opinion I agree with. If the film had bombed and I hated it I would have sided with you on this thread and criticized the film as well. I liked the film therefore I am defending it. If that makes me an intellectual fascist then so be it. But I've found myself siding with the minority opinion plenty of times so IMO that invalidates your claim that I am anything like an intellectual fascist. But to keep things civil why don't we drop that type of rhetoric? This isn't the CE&P thread there is no need for personal attacks of that nature. You say you don't like people using majority opinion to squash the minority. Fine then then I'll shall attempt to defend this film based on its own merits.

Francis Ford Coppola directed Apocalypse Now and Peggy Sue Got Married, but the later has little relevance in the context of a discussion about the former. In other words, directors are capable of making good films (like Traffic) and bad films (like Contagion). The fact that Traffic is a good film doesn't really mean anything.

I think it is relevant when the films are a like in style and mode of storytelling. Quality aside I think Contagion and Traffic are a certain type of film therefore I think the comparison is fair.

I am not going to reveal personal details, which – given the nature of this website – I’m sure comes as no surprise; you’ve asked me for something you know I will not deliver, thereby setting up an inevitable failure on my part. If you chose to believe that I don’t know anyone in the film industry, that's up to you.

Fine. But remember this is the internet where anyones claims are subject to dispute and disbelief. So in that context why bother making the comment about how you know insiders that hated the film or whatever if you weren't prepared to back that statement up with anything.

Why do you disagree?

Because I simply do not believe that it was fear mongering at all. It took a legitimate subject and explored the subject matter responsibly and coherently and furthermore realistically. Fear mongering IMO involves a significant amount of exaggeration. And I don't think this film exaggerates all that much. If you want an example of fear mongering in film I would say films like Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed or something like that is more guilty of fear mongering than Contagion.

On your criticisms on drama in the film

Most of your argument is based on YOU not caring for the characters. Which is fine again this is where personal taste comes in. But I had no problems connecting with the characters personally. I think in order to tell a story of such magnitude you have to devote sparing amounts of time on each character. In this sense it reminds me of some older films that I enjoy. Films like A Bridge Too Far or other films that have huge ensemble casts that people often complain about not being focused enough on one character. But again watching films like these I've never had problems caring about characters.

The film doesn't function as a human drama or a cold thriller; it is an awkward hybrid of the two. It wants to keep us distant from the characters, but at the same time it wants us to care about them. It wants to simultaneously be non-drama and drama. And, in doing so, it fails - to some extent - at both. This is what I meant by, "he (Soderbergh) tried to do too much."

Perhaps. But I wouldn't say he failed completely. I would say he was just overly ambitious. and got some things right and other things wrong.

I pay attention to certain critics. I find it is best to find a critic that you are on par with, rather than taking a broad average as an indication of quality. People these days don't even bother reading reviews, they just look at the numbers. To answer your question, though, I was addressing your erroneous assertion that the film received universal acclaim. It didn’t.

Yes and I conceded that point it didn't get universal acclaim. However I do read reviews and I use those numbers to help better support my own opinion. For example to express my opinion on how terrible a director Uwe Boll is all I have to do is show anyone who defends his work his over all rating on any critics site. I don't have to cite reviews to know that he is terrible. I've seen Alone in the Dark he sucks end of story. So I don't waste my time going around reading reviews about him (although this is an extreme example). But I digress. I also look for critics that I am on par with. Its just I think the overall consensus usually says a lot about the films standing amongst those who actually know what they are talking about.

Given your tone, I suspect you might be less than open-minded, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. I didn't say the film was racist. I said borderline racist. I wasn't outraged or offended by it; I don't think that the director was intentionally being racist, he probably didn't think about it. Hollywood has a long tradition of accidentally making films that present non-white people (and more specifically non-Americans) in a negative fashion. This is an enormous generalization, but: typically the Americans are the heroes and the foreigners are antagonists/ causes of antagonism. I'm not just talking about Air Force One and 24. It's wider spread than that.

K I agree with that entirely.

In Contagion, a disease spreads rapidly across the world. We see short montage scenes in various other countries. Maybe a minute total. The bulk of the story takes places in the states. All the heroes are American. This is typical. Add to the mix a mischievous and immoral Britt with bad teeth and a gang of Asian abductees. Note: the Americans are all making sacrifices. They are noble. There is no non-American heroism, at all. And then the cherry on the icing.

Not all the heroes are American. Here you are simply either being lazy or you are discounting Marion Cotillards (who is French) part as not important. Her character refuses to take the vaccine after she discovers that the WHO had given her captors a placebo because she ultimately sympathizes with the Chinese kidnappers.

The final scene in the film. Gwyenth Paltrow is in a fairly nice establishment. She's not eating street food. I've been to HK over twenty times. The place she contracted the disease was a lot nicer than what the majority of what the city has to offer. By the look of it, I’d say at least 4 stars. Anyway, the guy beside her spits big gobs of saliva onto his gambling chips and invites her to join in. In the spirit of being open minded to other cultures and embracing HK, she does. She spits on his gambling chips. And we cringe. Paltrow’s character is warm and loving; not your typical tourist, she exposes herself to culture. She joins in. So much so that she gets a photo taken with the chef. Who, of course, doesn’t bother to wash his hands after touching raw meat. He just rubs them on his clothes.

To sum up: the world is threatened as a result of a lack of hygiene in an Asian country, and the United States saves the day. The American characters all make enormous sacrifices. The non-American characters all make mistakes. Racism in Hollywood films is so common, that most of the time it goes unnoticed. As I said initially, some people picked it up, others didn’t.

Dude I live in HK and am Cantonese and I gotta say the conditions of hygiene here can be VASTLY improved. When SARS broke out the disease spread around in a reasonably nice hotel because of inadequate plumbing. In other words SHIT was literally leaking into other peoples hotel rooms infecting them with SARS. So you may have been to Hong Kong 20 times. But dude I live here and man just from personal experience people here need to work on their hygiene. Another recent example a public GOVERNMENT building recently got quarantined because a man got sick with Legionnaires disease and upon inspection it was discovered that the pipes were teaming with infectious agents.

But all that aside. It is a well known fact that Asia like Africa is a hotbed of viral evolution and activity. Most of the worlds flu viruses have origins here. Bird flu and SARS and some even say Spanish influenza originated here and also lets not forget the Bubonic plague. So IMO I don't think the film was being racist in this regard. It was simply being realistic.

Would you care for a biscuit; cup of tea, perhaps?

Sure and a cucumber sandwich if available :)
 
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So in that context why bother making the comment about how you know insiders that hated the film or whatever if you weren't prepared to back that statement up with anything.

I found this comment particularly amusing because you were the one who said that nobody in the industry likes this film, which is what I was responding to... and unless you happen to know everyone in the industry, you aren't prepared to back it up. Right?

Fear mongering IMO involves a significant amount of exaggeration.

70 million dead... 1 in 12 people dead... Don't eat the peanuts... etc. The film used a recent event (H1N1) and exageratted the fuck out of it. What am I missing here?

For example to express my opinion on how terrible a director Uwe Boll is all I have to do is show anyone who defends his work his over all rating on any critics site. I don't have to cite reviews to know that he is terrible. I've seen Alone in the Dark he sucks end of story.

I strongly disagree with this approach, as I've repeatedly stated. While Boll is not a great film-maker, he receives more criticism than he deserves. If he was making films in the 1970s/80s, they would have eaten that shit up. Also, he produces watchable films on miniscule budgets. I'm not saying I'm a fan, but I don't jump on the "We Fucking Hate Uwe Boll" band-wagon, without at least giving him a fair chance. The gathering momentum of majority opinions is a concern and these critic site averages just add to it.

I use those numbers to help better support my own opinion

This is poor argumentative technique. It is below you. Don't do it. They don't support your argument, they massively discredit it. Majority doesn't mean anything. To point at the majority and say, "See?", makes it appear as if you believe majority rules. Iron Man received largely positive reviews. So did Avatar. In my opinion, they are both utter shit. You have shown since that you're capable of stating your own opinions clearly and effectively, so why start of by pointing to the mass opinion. A number doesn't mean anything. It is not a way of expressing your opinion; referring to the popular vote and award nominations, rather than discussing the film itself, is a flawed way of illustrating quality.

But to keep things civil why don't we drop that type of rhetoric? This isn't the CE&P thread there is no need for personal attacks of that nature.

There were no personal attacks aside from you calling me an asshole and your "oh-so-eloquent" comment towards faded, which is funny (like the insider thing) because your words often lack eloquence... Pointing out intellectual fascism (when it exists) is no more a personal attack than pointing out sarcasm. Again, I'm sorry if it offends you to do so.

Re: the racism, or lack thereof

Honk Kong is one of the dirtier places I've been, yes. The streets have an overpowering smell alot of the time.

So, one of the "heroes" was French... You must admit that the vast majority of characters can be divided up into American Heroes and Non-American forces/causes of antagonism. Again, I said "borderline". It's not nazi propaganda, just a little racist (IMO). I'm not suggesting that the virus should not have originated in Asia, it's how they went about it (not just the origin of the virus, but the entire narrative).

Most of your argument is based on YOU not caring for the characters.

The characters were not designed to be cared about. We have nothing invested in them, as an audience. Their stories are breif and shallow, interspersed with tiny moments of sadness/nobility; and that is not, in my opinion, an effective way for a film-maker to develop an character worth caring about. But each to their own, I guess.

:)

I'm afraid we're out of cucumbers. Those damn foreigners gobble them up faster than you can shake a stick at a slave.
 
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I found this comment particularly amusing because you were the one who said that nobody in the industry likes this film, which is what I was responding to... and unless you happen to know everyone in the industry, you aren't prepared to back it up. Right?

Lol yes it is amusing when faced with your own ignorance isn't it? I think you got screwed up here and you mixed up who said what. I SAID most people in the industry LIKED this film. Get your facts straight. And I was basing that off interviews I've read I never claimed personal connections with anybody. You did. So don't try and turn this around with an outright lie that is not gonna fly here. Or maybe you were just high and made a stupid comment if that is the case I'll let that slide. But I think what happened is you were either unable to back up your claim of knowing insiders or you were just lying about knowing any insiders. And now you're trying to distort the issue by claiming "Oh I didn't say that. You did!" Just to be clear this is what you said (unedited quote from you) and what I initially responded to.

Again, I disagree. In fact, I know many people in the industry and from my observations the film was not very popular with insiders. Even if it was though, I don't see your point. You can't squash (or discredit/invalidate) opinions because they do not reflect the majority. If you do, you're basically a fascist.

I have never made any claims to knowing ANY people in the industry. You did.

70 million dead... 1 in 12 people dead... Don't eat the peanuts... etc. The film used a recent event (H1N1) and exageratted the fuck out of it. What am I missing here?

If you knew the background of the production and writing of the script you would know that this film was based off the SARS epidemic and had nothing to do with H1N1. In multiple interviews people working on the film always said the premises was what if SARS was deadlier. Again please get your facts straight and do some research. And 70 million dead isn't that much of an exaggeration. As mentioned in the film Spanish flu killed more people than the first World War. And the Black death? Killed 30 to 60 percent of the European population. So yeah 70 million is actually a relatively lower number than actual deadly pandemics in history.

I strongly disagree with this approach, as I've repeatedly stated. While Boll is not a great film-maker, he receives more criticism than he deserves. If he was making films in the 1970s/80s, they would have eaten that shit up. Also, he produces watchable films on miniscule budgets. I'm not saying I'm a fan, but I don't jump on the "We Fucking Hate Uwe Boll" band-wagon, without at least giving him a fair chance. The gathering momentum of majority opinions is a concern and these critic site averages just add to it.

If you are defending Uwe Boll as a film maker then I don't know what to say to you. The guy is shit. I've watched several of his films and I don't see how anyone can say his films are "watchable" as you put it. Have you even seen Alone in the Dark? The guy takes bad writing and incoherence to a near art form.

This is poor argumentative technique. It is below you. Don't do it. They don't support your argument, they massively discredit it. Majority doesn't mean anything. To point at the majority and say, "See?", makes it appear as if you believe majority rules. Iron Man received largely positive reviews. So did Avatar. In my opinion, they are both utter shit. You have shown since that you're capable of stating your own opinions clearly and effectively, so why start of by pointing to the mass opinion. A number doesn't mean anything. It is not a way of expressing your opinion; referring to the popular vote and award nominations, rather than discussing the film itself, is a flawed way of illustrating quality.

Why not? IMO if a film is liked by the majority of people it is USUALLY good. That is why people vote. Because majority opinion matters. To dismiss the majority opinion is just the same as trying to crush and invalidate minority opinions. And as long as we are talking about political context, dismissing majority opinion would be the intellectual equivalent of saying George W. Bush deserved to win his first presidential election even though he didn't win the popular vote. But ultimately I make up my own mind about films I like or dislike. So what if sometimes I follow the group? It means something to me. And as for Iron Man and Avatar? Iron Man was shit. And Avatar definitely was not James Camerons best work, but come on, utter shit? At least it was better than a Michael Bay movie. Did you see the last Transformers movie?

There were no personal attacks aside from you calling me an asshole and your "oh-so-eloquent" comment towards faded, which is funny (like the insider thing) because your words often lack eloquence... Pointing out intellectual fascism (when it exists) is no more a personal attack than pointing out sarcasm. Again, I'm sorry if it offends you to do so.

The oh-so-eloquent remark along with the insider remark (which is bullshit on your part since I didn't say I knew any insiders) was a reactionary thing. I felt personally offended by you calling me an intellectual fascist and still am. However I never called you an asshole. I said you were displaying signs of asshole behavior. A small difference but I stand by that statement. However now that it seems you are comfortable with lying to win an argument I think its fair to say that you are also a dishonest individual who also displays signs of asshole behavior. On top of all that you're also somewhat discredited now because either you lied, or you can't even keep track of who said what during the course of a discussion. An online discussion no less where you can go back anytime and read what was actually said.

I'm sorry if that is not eloquent enough for you. I tend to ditch eloquence and tact when people start throwing words around like fascist and ignorant so loosely while misquoting or misrepresenting what I said. Furthermore I hate it when people use the term fascist inappropriately. If you wish to call me an intellectual bully fine perhaps I am. But fascist? Again that is hyperbole.

Honk Kong is one of the dirtier places I've been, yes. The streets have an overpowering smell alot of the time.

So, one of the "heroes" was French... You must admit that the vast majority of characters can be divided up into American Heroes and Non-American forces/causes of antagonism. Again, I said "borderline". It's not nazi propaganda, just a little racist (IMO). I'm not suggesting that the virus should not have originated in Asia, it's how they went about it (not just the origin of the virus, but the entire narrative).

Maybe so. But the fact of the matter is one of the leading organizations responsible for the fighting of diseases on a world wide scale is the CDC which is an American organization. It wouldn't have made sense to put a bunch of foreigners in positions that Americans would obviously hold. Also I found the main antagonistic force in the movie wasn't Asians trying to get the vaccine/cure for their families. But it was the bureaucracy of the various governments and big pharma companies and even rival health organizations. For example the amount of resistance Kate Winslets character faced when trying to stem the tide of the initial stages of the epidemic.

The characters were not designed to be cared about. We have nothing invested in them, as an audience. Their stories are breif and shallow, interspersed with tiny moments of sadness/nobility; and that is not, in my opinion, an effective way for a film-maker to develop an character worth caring about. But each to their own, I guess.

Yes this is starting to degenerate into a battle of tastes that is starting to turn a little ugly. What with the dishonest remarks made by you and all. Obviously we have wildly different tastes. For example I don't see how anyone can consider any Uwe Boll film as watchable. But hey whatever floats your boat. At least the chick in Bloodrayne is hot I guess.

Damn those foreigners. Probably Japanese always putting cucumbers in their sushi :)
 
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I'm not really into splitting hairs, Jimmy, but what you said was the majority of film-makers support this film. What interviews have you read about Contagion, pertaining to people in the industry who weren't directly involved in the making of the film? I'd be surprised if it is more than one. In fact, I'd be surprised if you can cite any at all. In which case, your comment is ridiculous. I didn't screw anything up. Please provide a link to these alleged interviews. I don't believe they exist.

If you knew the background of the production and writing of the script you would know that this film was based off the SARS epidemic and had nothing to do with H1N1. In multiple interviews people working on the film always said the premises was what if SARS was deadlier. Again please get your facts straight and do some research. And 70 million dead isn't that much of an exaggeration. As mentioned in the film Spanish flu killed more people than the first World War. And the Black death? Killed 30 to 60 percent of the European population. So yeah 70 million is actually a relatively lower number than actual deadly pandemics in history.

Whether it is H1N1 or SARS is entirely irrelevant to my point. The fact that it WAS actually based on SARS, means that it is exageratted fear mongering. The Spanish flu and (particularly) the plague occured in a different time, when medical science (as we know it today) had yet to fully develop. There has never been a virus as contagious as the disease in contagion. Since you are asking me to do some research, maybe you could do some also. Have a read about the viruses you mentioned and the circumstances allowing them to thrive. You might be able to convince yourself that 70 million is a believable number. But 1 in 12? Do the math; that's over 500 million. SARS killed less than a thousand. By your definition fear mongering requires exagerattion. Does that qualify? If not, why not?

If you are defending Uwe Boll as a film maker then I don't know what to say to you. The guy is shit. I've watched several of his films and I don't see how anyone can say his films are "watchable" as you put it. Have you even seen Alone in the Dark? The guy takes bad writing and incoherence to a near art form.

Admittedly, the only Uwe Boll film I've seen is Rampage (which I appreciated - on some level - as an extraordinarily low budget film that was mildly entertaining). I don't feel compelled to go out and watch any more of his films, but Rampage (in my opinion) is a far better film than - for example - Green Lantern, which recieved much better reviews...

Why not? IMO if a film is liked by the majority of people it is USUALLY good. That is why people vote. Because majority opinion matters. To dismiss the majority opinion is just the same as trying to crush and invalidate minority opinions. And as long as we are talking about political context, dismissing majority opinion would be the intellectual equivalent of saying George W. Bush deserved to win his first presidential election even though he didn't win the popular vote.

You are missing the point. Please clear your mind of preconceptions and prejudices and just follow what I'm saying. I'm not saying opinions that exist within the majority don't matter; they are equally as valuable as opinions that exist within the minority. Your initial response to someone voicing a negative opinion about a film that you regarded as excellent, was that of invalidation. "The majority of film-makers and critics would disagree with you." The implication being that "these people know their shit, and you sir do not." It was a little smug and unneccessary. That is how it came across, anyway, hence the yawn you received in response.

You appeared to be belittling the minority opinion. If that's not what you meant to do, be careful with your wording. Your George W. Bush example doesn't make any sense (at all) because I never dismissed anyone's opinion, majority or otherwise. I am not saying "the majority is wrong," I am saying that both the majority and the minority are right. There is no wrong in the context of a discussion like this.

I'm sorry if that is not eloquent enough for you. I tend to ditch eloquence and tact when people start throwing words around like fascist and ignorant so loosely.

I was refering to your comments about Uwe Boll. You said "he sucks" numerous times (or words to that effect) which is a practically identical statement to the one you criticized for not being eloquent.

Furthermore I hate it when people use the term fascist inappropriately. If you wish to call me an intellectual bully fine perhaps I am. But fascist? Again that is hyperbole.

Fascist, through extended common usage, has gained a number of sub-definitions. Feel free to look it up, if you don't believe me. Clearly I wasn't calling you Hitler.

Bully/fascist; whatever.

Maybe so. But the fact of the matter is one of the leading organizations responsible for the fighting of diseases on a world wide scale is the CDC which is an American organization. It wouldn't have made sense to put a bunch of foreigners in positions that Americans would obviously hold.

I wouldn't have cared if all of the characters in the film were American and the film took place entirely in America. My concern is how cultures are divided in terms of protagonists/antagonists and (you just said) you agree with me on that - therefore you agree that the film is a little (tiny teeny) bit racist?

The major antagonist was the virus. Some reviewer (can't remember who) described the film as being about three pandemics. First, the virus. Second, the bureaucracy. Third, the media. Personally I think that is giving the film too much credit, but it illustrates my point. The major antagonist was certainly not of US origin. Nor was it a result of a lack of hygiene due to the conditions in another country, but of negligence on the part of non-Americans.

I don't see how anyone can consider any Uwe Boll film as watchable. But hey whatever floats your boat.

You said you watched a number of Uwe Boll films, but you insist that they are unwatchable?

;)

Damn those foreigners. Probably Japanese always putting cucumbers in their sushi

How dare you! I am Japanese (four seventeenths on my mother's side) and I don't take criticisms of sushi lightly.
 
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Please choose a weapon...

Choices include:

-Bare-handed combat (most honorable, least effective)
-Syringe containing lethal pathogen (most ironic, medium efficiency)
-Broadsword (most honorable, medium efficiency)
-Revolver (least honorable, most effective)
 
I'm not really into splitting hairs, Jimmy, but what you said was the majority of film-makers support this film. What interviews have you read about Contagion, pertaining to people in the industry who weren't directly involved in the making of the film? I'd be surprised if it is more than one. In fact, I'd be surprised if you can cite any at all. In which case, your comment is ridiculous. I didn't screw anything up. Please provide a link to these alleged interviews. I don't believe they exist.

I'm not splitting hairs. IMO you were being dishonest claiming I said things I never said. But whatever. I said I would try to defend this film on its own merits. And I'm gonna try and stick to that no matter how much you try and distort it. As for the interviews. I only read one and it was in a film magazine and it was kind of an offhand comment. Like what you think of certain filmmakers? Oh I like Steven Soderberh and his new film yaddy yadda. Admittedly it was not an interview specifically about the film and I can't seem to find it online anywhere. Feel free to call me out on that as me being dishonest although I will continue looking and if I find it I will post it. But I still never said I knew any insiders personally.

Edit: OK I give up can't find the interview anywhere. Feel free to say I made it up.

Whether it is H1N1 or SARS is entirely irrelevant to my point. The fact that it WAS actually based on SARS, means that it is exageratted fear mongering. The Spanish flu and (particularly) the plague occured in a different time, when medical science (as we know it today) had yet to fully develop. There has never been a virus as contagious as the disease in contagion. Since you are asking me to do some research, maybe you could do some also. Have a read about the viruses you mentioned and the circumstances allowing them to thrive. You might be able to convince yourself that 70 million is a believable number. But 1 in 12? Do the math.

The circumstances in order for a virus like that to thrive are even better today then they were back then. Anybody can get on a plane and within 24 hours end up anywhere in the world. That is how Spanish influenza spread because of veterans returning back home from WWI. And yes there has been viruses that have been even more contagious or at least as contagious. Smallpox and polio although neither of them were as deadly. As for exaggeration I was talking about how it didn't exaggerate the potential effects of a world wide pandemic of a lethal virus. Using those historical examples I think its entirely believable that such a disease can spread in todays world regardless of the advances made in modern medicine.

Modern day scientists (virologist especially) are always saying that it will happen again. Although yes its become something of a cliche it is true. The possibility of a global pandemic with devastating results is all too real. Hell just recently they bio engineered a highly contagious strain of bird flu that is also airborne. All it took was several mutations to reach that point. And bird flu (H5N1) has a 50% fatality rate and is a completely novel virus with the potential to become incredibly contagious.

Admittedly, the only Uwe Boll film I've seen is Rampage (which I appreciated - on some level - as an extraordinarily low budget film that was mildly entertaining). I don't feel compelled to go out and watch any more of his films, but Rampage (in my opinion) is a far better film than - for example - Green Lantern, which recieved much better reviews...

Haven't seen Rampage although I'm sure its *chuckle* watchable as you say. And one couldn't pay me to watch Green Lantern which was pretty much universally panned so I don't get what your point is.

You are missing the point. Please clear your mind of preconceptions and prejudices and just follow what I'm saying. I'm not saying opinions that exist within the majority don't matter; they are equally as valuable as opinions that exist within the minority. Your initial response to someone voicing a negative opinion about a film that you regarded as excellent, was that of invalidation. "The majority of film-makers and critics would disagree with you." The implication being that "these people know their shit, and you sir do not." It was a little smug and unneccessary. That is how it came across, anyway, hence the yawn you received in response.

You appeared to be belittling the minority opinion. If that's not what you meant to do, be careful with your wording. Your George W. Bush example doesn't make any sense (at all) because I never dismissed anyone's opinion, majority or otherwise. I am not saying "the majority is wrong," I am saying that both the majority and the minority are right. There is no wrong in the context of a discussion like this.

By claiming that my opinion was ignorant and fascist I took you to be belittling my opinion so lets just say we're even on that score. And yes I will attempt to invalidate other peoples opinion if I strongly disagree with them. But they can always defend themselves and their opinion.

I was refering to your comments about Uwe Boll. You said "he sucks" numerous times (or words to that effect) which is a practically identical statement to the one you criticized for not being eloquent.

Yeah so what. He does suck. I don't care if you think that is not eloquent. But I hardly consider calling a film utter shit any more of an eloquent statement than saying somebody sucks.

Fascist, through extended common usage, has gained a number of sub-definitions. Feel free to look it up, if you don't believe me. Clearly I wasn't calling you Hitler.

Bully/fascist; whatever.

When I think fascist I think the form of government that oppresses people with physical violence. I think the misuse of this word has led to it losing its true meaning. But sure call me a bully if you want. I don't really care.

The major antagonist was the virus. Some reviewer (can't remember who) described the film as being about three pandemics. First, the virus. Second, the bureaucracy. Third, the media. Personally I think that is giving the film too much credit, but it illustrates my point. The major antagonist was certainly not of US origin. Nor was it a result of a lack of hygiene due to the conditions in another country, but of negligence on the part of non-Americans.

The virus is a force of nature so yes it can be considered an antagonist in the context of man vs nature. But IMO the biggest problem (especially in this post-katrina world) is bureaucracy and yes the media spreading the flames of panic. To me these were bigger problems than the virus itself as these problems could have been easily managed if people just united.

You said you watched a number of Uwe Boll films, but you insist that they are unwatchable?

I had a roommate who collected bad films as a hobby. When we got bored we would drink and watch terrible films together as a pass time. Yes they are all unwatchable but being slightly drunk helped a little I guess. You were the one who said I should give the guy a chance. I did and he didn't deserve that chance. He is shit and his films are terrible. End of story.

How dare you! I am Japanese (four seventeenths on my mother's side) and I don't take criticisms of sushi lightly.

I love sushi. Just saying I wanted a cucumber sandwich and those damn Japanese keep hogging the cucumbers. Share the love guys :)
 
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Please choose a weapon...

Choices include:

-Bare-handed combat (most honorable, least effective)
-Syringe containing lethal pathogen (most ironic, medium efficiency)
-Broadsword (most honorable, medium efficiency)
-Revolver (least honorable, most effective)

I choose barehands. Been taking boxing lessons to supplement my Sanda training. Should be fun. :\
 
But I still never said I knew any insiders personally.

Didn't say you did, Jimmy. Didn't say you did. You were speaking for them, that's all. Stating their collective opinion. "The film industry likes this film" you said. Film-makers like it. So, I assumed you must know some film-makers. The pieces are all there, waiting to be assembled. I'm not sure of the source of the confusion; perhaps an Asian guy somewhere didn't wash his hands. The interview that I predicted you wouldn't be able to find and (lo, and behold) you can't find doesn't exist. For this reason: When film-makers or actors are interviewed, they are interviewed about their work, not someone elses. They are plugging the shit they are trying to sell. Why would, for example, Spike Jonze be interviewed about Avatar so soon after it's release? And if he was, anything negative he might say would be removed from the article wouldn't it? Therefore it couldn't be taken as an indication of quality anyway. In other words, there is no possible way to gauge what the majority of film-makers think unless you know a lot of film-makers. Get me?

The circumstances in order for a virus like that to thrive are even better today then they were back then.

No, they aren't.

Modern day scientists (virologist especially) are always saying that it will happen again.

9 out of 10 doctors recommend an impending apocaylpse.

When I think fascist I think the form of government that oppresses people with physical violence. I think the misuse of this word has led to it losing its true meaning.

No, it's just gained other meanings in different contexts. It still has the original one.

But IMO the biggest problem (especially in this post-katrina world) is bureaucracy and yes the media spreading the flames of panic. To me these were bigger problems than the virus itself as these problems could have been easily managed if people just united.

I agree. The media spreading fear and exageratting the potential dangers of contagions is more of a concern than the actual threat. In fact, I couldn't agree more. (Although, if I believed that 500+ million could die, as you do, then I probably would consider the threat greater than the hype. But hey, that's just me I guess.) Contagion is part of the media. Despite being fictional it is essentially serving the same purpose, and is part of, the hype surrounding SARS - which you by your own admission disapprove of. Quite the conundrum.

I had a roommate who collected bad films as a hobby. When we got bored we would drink and watch terrible films together as a pass time. Yes they are all unwatchable but being slightly drunk helped a little I guess. You were the one who said I should give the guy a chance. I did and he didn't deserve that chance. He is shit and his films are terrible. End of story.

It seems to me that Uwe Boll noticed an easy way to make money. There is a lot of mindless crap that (particularly) US audiences seem to lap up. So he makes those films. But he also has a bit of fun with them. I think, from what I've observed of him, he knows the films he makes are largely shit. Your friend (and indirectly you) support him by watching them. These films that you know will be bad. You watch them and then you call the guy responsible shit. Because, why, it's good to feel better than someone? Meanwhile, he is rolling around in pussy and cocaine. By the way, I don't think watching films that you know will be bad in order to laugh at them is what I would call "giving the guy a chance"... and I've got to say, beating the shit out of your critics in the boxing ring is pretty awesome...

I love sushi. Just saying I wanted a cucumber sandwich and those damn Japanese keep hogging the cucumbers. Share the love guys

Deny it all you want, Jimmy. Your comments were borderline racist.
 
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