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COMMUNITY PROJECT - Creating an "effects profile" for psychedelics

I'll have my version up in a little while... after I pay to host it at full capacity. Mine will not automatically keep up reports, but I'm writing a routine to create reports which will take a very short time to run, and I'll make sure to keep the reports updated as they increase in sample size.

Definitely haven't lost steam with this... I am just a busy guy, especially with work being so busy lately. I barely have time to make this post! 8(
 
@ Xorkoth: then all the more kudos on contributing!

@ Obyron: Sounds pretty technical, there must be toil and trouble in your cauldron!
 
A link that Swilow posted on a thread about RC use made me think about the value of this project - especially the last line. It's from PIKHAL and was writen on the Aleph-7 page.

There is something of the Fournier Transform in any and all drug experiments. A psychedelic drug experience is a complex combination of many signals going all at the same time. Something like the sound of an oboe playing the notes of the A-major scale. There are events that occur in sequence, such as the initial A, followed by B, followed by C-sharp and on and on. That is the chronology of the experience, and it can be written down as a series of perceived phenomena. The notes of the scale. Black quarter notes, with flags at the tops of their staffs, going up the page of music.

But within each of these single events, during the sounding of the note "A," for example, there is a complex combination of harmonics being produced at the same time, including all components from the fundamental oscillation on up through all harmonics into the inaudible. This mixture defines the played instrument as being an oboe. Each component may be shared by many instruments, but the particular combination is the unique signature of the oboe.

This analogy applies precisely to the study of psychedelic drugs and their actions. Each drug has a chronology of effect, like the notes of the A-major scale. But there are many components of a drug's action, like the harmonics from the fundamental to the inaudible which, taken in concert, defines the drug. With musical instruments, these components can be shown as sine waves on an oscilloscope. One component, 22%, was a sine wave at a frequency of 1205 cycles, and a phase angle of +55!. But in psychopharmacology? There is no psychic oscillo-scope. There are no easily defined and measured harmonics or phase angles. Certainly, any eventual definition of a drug will require some such dissection into components each of which makes some contribution to the complex whole. The mental process may some day be defined by a particular combination of these components. And one of them is this Beth state. It is a state of uncaring, of anhe-donia, and of emotionlessness.

Many drugs have a touch of this Beth state, ALEPH-7 more than most. If a sufficient alphabet of effects (I am using the Alephs, Beths, Gimels, and Daleths of the Hebrew as token starters only) were to be accumulated and defined, the actions of new materials might someday be more exactly documented.

HTML:
http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal007.shtml
 
i'm a professional web developer as well and would be more than willing to contribute my time to become a part of this project.
 
Still working on this, but things are rocky for me right now, since, as of Saturday, I'm unemployed. I have another couple of evenings that I can afford to spend hacking around on code, but after that it's going to exist just on my copy of WOAS (Webserver On A Stick) until I get settled again.

Never mix business and family.
 
Thanks a lot for the proclaimed devotion! :)

Things are coming along very slowly, at this point I'm still comtemplating the validity of the survey. For instance I discovered there are other relevant assessment forms, like the Hallucinogen Rating Scale (HRS) developed for DMT, The State-Trait Anxiety Inventory-S (STAI-S) and The Altered States of Consciousness Questionnaire (“Aussergewöhnliche Psychische Zustände”, APZ).

I'd be very interested to know what these surveys looked like and what data is already assessed - not only would it help perfect our project, it would tell us if we are headed for uncharted territory or not! Anyone?

Meanwhile, some feedback on this whole thing is also welcome. When we decide to proceed as a community every devotee can feel free to take our current form and mutate it into a fresh state.
With a little more input on whether we have enough to produce some valuable insights I'd be honored to take charge of the hosting part. =D
 
Interesting post, Solipsys.

Here's a good article from MAPS about the HRS. Of particular interest to me was the discussion about mid-way through of the factor analysis they did, and the factors they established. These could be a good starting point for categories for a survey. It's amazing if you think about it. They had 55 volunteers answer 238 questions (and hopefully our test won't be that grueling! That'd take a while!) and were able to draw scientific conclusions from it. How many trip reports are on Erowid? How many unique users have submitted experiences here? We have an extraordinary opportunity to exploit a large sample size. I'm as excited as ever about the usefulness of this project, I just wish I had more fucking time. :( I'm reading PIHKAL right now, and I envy the hell out of Sasha for being able to just drop out of his job to do work he believed in full time. Do you have a copy of The Spirit Molecule? I'm sure there's more info in there about the HRS. I'll be glad to flip through it and post what I can find if you need me to.

The Anxiety Inventory and whatnot seem interesting, but I really think we could include all that sort of thing within the framework of other parts of the test. For example, one of the factors in the HRS tests was Affect/Emotion, which dealt with, quote: questions concerning "anxiety," "fear," "euphoria," "urge to laugh," "urge to cry;". (ibid.)

I'm glad to see someone focusing so much on the questionnaire itself, since all of my work so far has been centered on the design of the interface and making it feel polished and professional, as well as security, etc. etc.

Keep up the great work. :)
 
^^ Sorry for the double post, but I had something else I wanted to add here that is, I think, deserving of being in a separate easily-quoted and discussed post.

Part of the code I was working on was to do statistical analysis and searches of results to generate charts and graphs. For example, you could ask what percentage of users of 5-MeO-MIPT experience heightened sexual arousal? What percentage of users of DOM experienced muscle tremors? Another direction I was going with this, though, was to collate information about individual respondents who'd like to register a username (no private data or anything; just a way for people to say "I like reports by soandso" or "Soandso experiences a lot of the same things that I do" or for statistical purposes such as what I'm currently outlining). I think it'd be interesting to be able to look at statistics on all of your own reports.

For example: If I've submitted 5 reports on varying doses of 4-HO-DIPT, the stats might show that in 4/5 (80% ) of those reports, I've noted anxiety. I can then do a search of the database at large and find that only 10% of respondents have noted anxiety as a side effect of 4-HO-DIPT. This is obviously significant. If someone else comes along and has roughly the same "psychedelic profile" as I do, and they haven't tried 4-HO-DIPT but are considering it, this could maybe help them to know in advance that they might be subject to heightened anxiety.

I'm a total statistics junkie, and the ability to crunch the numbers on shit like this is a lot of what attracted me to the project to begin with.
 
I'm thankful you're working on this project, Obyron... sounds like you've taken some of the ideas further. I am similarly fascinated by the statistics of it and I would absolutely love to see functionality as you mention. :)

Obyron said:
I'm as excited as ever about the usefulness of this project, I just wish I had more fucking time.

You and me both. Well, at least we've got things going on, right? I'd be a little more conerned personally if all I had to think about was this project.
 
So what basic format is being proposed? If anyones written a 'propsal' for example, can they perhaps post it or a link or something resembling it or a ling?
 
I've just finished reading DMT: The Spirit Molecule, and I'm really really interested at looking at a copy of the Hallucinogen Rating Scale for use in this project. Strassman mentions that the scale has been used in other studies and has even been translated into several other languages, and yet I can't find the bloody scale online anywhere. I found the abstract of his study on the website of the Archives of General Psychiatry, but I can't find the full text. Have any of you run across a copy of the HRS anywhere? If all else fails I'll start sending emails. :p

Once I'm finished moving and I get my tax return in I'm picking up a new laptop, so I'll be back to work on this. No sense getting in a big hurry when we don't have any kind of rating criteria though.
 
Sorry I'm not up to par guys, eventually I want to make this work - can still piggyback on some webspace and the idea floats around every now and then. But I'm going 32-40 hours a week not including travelling time. And probably moving houses as well. It's too damn hectic, but when the dust settles I will not have forgotten about this. This is our infant and I intend us to raise it :)

The HRS would definitely come in handy, I'm going back and forth between making a very complex model analyzing every aspect of the survey or just statistically counting the experienced effects. Both could be put to use although the former could really open some doors, break some barriers and crosslink different branches of science and pseudosciences.

Semper psy!
 
Visual Only Effects Profile For Psilocyn

Describing hallucinations and visual effects is not possible; not only are they literally undescribeable but they're different for different people. But nevertheless, we shall attempt the impossible and provide the following short list of some distinct types we have run across, in approximate order of how high a dose is needed for the effect. CEV = Closed Eye Visual, OEV = Open Eye Visual.


Red/green/blue blips (CEV or OEV)
Possibly the most common type of hallucination, this usually occurs at the onset. The basic idea is that a layer of red, green, and blue blips - kind of like looking at a TV set from real close - is superimposed on everything. Most visible in darkness.


Pixelization (OEV)
The second stage of the RGB effect is "pixelization", ie. everything seems to be composed of separate little bits, like pixels on a computer screen. This effect is difficult to describe, all I can say is you'll know what it is when you see it. People who aren't computer freaks think it looks like a fine mesh or web placed over your field of vision.


Tracers (OEV)
Moving objects that contrast sharply with their background (tip of lit incense stick against a dark room, ball flying against the blue sky, etc) leave colorful trails.

Red shift (OEV)
Everything looks like you're looking at it through glasses with their lenses dyed red. Now you know why hippies loved red sunglasses so much... =)


Breathing (OEV)
A very common effect at medium to high doses, the object in question starts to pulse in and out, bubble, shift, split into multiple layers, morph to the point of being entirely unrecognizable... Usually visible in bigger objects, such as expanses of sand, clouds, textured walls and carpets, etc.


Melting (OEV)
The direct corollary of breathing, best seen in plants and trees. The object in question starts acting like it was made of plastic, and somebody started to heat it; it distorts, flows downwards, maybe wiggles a bit from side to side in a cosmic dance of sorts. Shadows may exhibit a special form of melting: they move by themselves.


Haloing (OEV) [description by [email protected]]
Usually my shroom visuals start off as a "haloing" of misty rainbow colors off of anything I look at. Eventually, as the trip intesifies, I get what I call "kodaking" or "poloroiding" - the "halos" around the mundane 3-D objects begin to morph into "snapshots" - usually of family members or past experiences recalled from differing perspectives. The "snapshots" have a kind of "infinite ripple effect" around the edges, as if they are evaporating away in time... this is not exactly right, but I don't know how else to describe it. Ooh, maybe this... They are fractalized around the edges. I have studied this effect for quite some time and I have come to believe that this "hallucination" is due to a shift in the speed at which I perceive light. The "fractalized edges" tend to strobe and flicker and recede off into infinity. The closer I scrutinize the edges the more complex they become - ad infinitum. Good music, good pot, or a combination of both will "animate" the snapshots - get them morphing and oozing into different scenes more rapidly. I call this "imagination grease".


X-Ray Vision (OEV) [description by [email protected]]
I remember riding on a bus with a friend of mine while I was moderately dosed with shroomahuasca (1.5 cubensis shrooms + 1 rue capsule). When I looked at his face, I could see the network of blood vessels pumping blood through his head and brain. I could see through his skin and see his skull. It was really creepy but really cool too. I started laughing so hard I had to put my head in my hands to stifle the noise. On another trip (similar dose - it's my usual), I was looking up at a tree and suddenly I could see every vein in the tree and the sap running through it in very slow but steady progression. I could also see "specks" like little ants coarsing through everything, including my own body. They flowed through space in organic patterns - from the tree, to the deck, to my legs, etc. I do not know what these "specks" were. I first assumed they were some kind of insect, but they were far too small. No one with me (dosed or sober) could see them so I shrugged it off as "tripper's delusion". However, when hiking once (dosed), I was lying on a rock and noticed the SAME THING. This time I scrutinized it and found that there were actually tiny little "bugs" of some kind scurrying along the rocks. They were smaller than the tiny dirt particles dusting the rocks, but they definitely moved in insectlike patterns. I showed them to my firend, who was also tripping, and he couldn't see them. Then I said "no, they're REALLY tiny, like ATOMS," and suddenly HE saw them too. We were both blown away. I still don't know what they were - mites, bacteria, etc - but they were unmistakeably there. The were eating or excreteing some type of lichen that was all over the rocks and trees in the area we were in. It was amazing. I had been hiking in the same area sober many times and I had never seen them. When I went back once sober, I could see them if I looked REALLY close, but only in the tiny area I stared at, and it really strained my eyes. When dosed, I saw them everywhere (like millions of trails of ants...) Talk about visual accuity!


The Guardian (CEV or OEV)
A few people, including yours truly, are lucky enough to have a constant hallucination that lasts for the duration of trip and even afterwards; Castaneda mentions these in his books and calls them "guides" or "guardians". Two forms include a little blue lattice containing red and green blips, and a bright red star. These may or may not recur in different trips and also flash back after the trip itself is over.


Geometric patterns (CEV)
One type of hallucination is the geometric pattern. There are many subtypes of these: Mandelbrots, spirals, wave interference patterns, etc. The unifying feature is that they tend to be in primary colors and of a fractal nature, ie. the same basic pattern is repeated continually. These are two-dimensional with lower doses, but they become 3D on higher doses. Psychedelic Experience calls this "The Internal Flow of Archetypal Processes".


"The Fire-Flow of Internal Unity" (CEV)
Another type taken from Psych Exp, this involves more of feeling something than seeing it, although there are undescribeable hallucinations accompanying the feelings. The distinct difference to the last one is that the visuals are not geometric and separate, but amorphous, dim shapes directly linked to the emotions one is experiencing, which can be positive (bliss, love, peace) or negative (isolation, withdrawal, sadness).


Traditional patterns (CEV)
Visuals containing imagery from Aztec, Mayan, Native American, Indian and African cultures are quite common. These vary from seeing something exactly like a picture/statue of a native god to more vague visions of scriptures and temples to just a fuzzy idea of the hallucinations being 'drawn' in a specific style.


Hallucinations (CEV, rarely OEV)
Actual hallucinations - ie. objects that are recognizable and appear real, but are not there - may occur on high-dose trips. If lucky, the tripper may even be transported into a literal, as opposed to merely figurative, Alice-in-Wonderland type alternate universe. This is not the same as merely feeling things like "I felt like a satellite" or "I was transported by the music", with real hallucinations the visuals are equivalent to a color 3-D movie on a 360-degree screen.

Entities (CEV, rarely OEV)
Encounters with other beings are a recurring feature of high-dose trips. I will not tackle the complex philosophical issues of what they are (if anything), how they got there, and what they mean; all I know is that they exist. Some common types:

The "mantid", an alien-looking insect-headed creature that tends to appear extremely intelligent and aware and neutral/negative towards the tripper. Can be green or grayish-white.
The so-called "DMT elf", a gnome-like playful, funny and usually friendly entity.
Happy dancing little people that appear in large groups.
Shapeless, but conscious, masses of hyperspace protoplasm.
There are other types, but these four seem to recur quite often.

Clear Light of Reality (CEV or OEV)
Nirvana, ego loss, Non-Game Ecstasy, enlightenment, ultimate truth, "the infallible mind of the pure mystic state", etc. One thing's for sure, you'll recognize it if you get there. =) Again, while any decent trip will seriously reduce the domination of the ego and let you see quite a lot that you wouldn't normally notice, the "Clear Light" kind of total ego loss is quite rare and even experienced trippers consider themselves lucky if they've had a single one of these so-called 'Level 5' experiences.

This should not be taken as a thorough or complete list. Aside from these specific types, you will almost certainly notice that everything, especially nature, simply looks different: new, fresh and somehow alien and familiar at the same time. The most minute details will stand out and the contrasts between colors will be enhanced. I find this ability to view the world differently to be one of the most rewarding aspects of psychedelics, and I once more strongly recommend going outside and checking it out.

got it from this site: http://www.geocities.com/hotsprings/5257/psychedelicfaq.html#27
 
I'm finally starting to settle down from the move, but depending on how my situation works out with getting a new job, I may get to experience the joy of moving all over again. Sucks to be me. :(

I'm still holding out for finding a copy of the HRS to use for this experiment. From everything I've read (which is now piling up to be quite a bit), it seems like the best starting point, especially since it already has good scientific credentials from the Strassman DMT study.

For the above post, I just want to note that I think it's funny to say that hallucinations are indescribable, and then promptly describing every possible aspect of them in minute detail. :p
 
Just wanted to bump this and say I'm back in the tripping business. As I now integrated into a happy day job life it becomes possible for me again to study this project.
Also my initial survey hoster has moved out and his gear was rather shabby, so we're still looking for someone to host a proper site, actually we could start thinking about a website content and consider using the survey I posted earlier? Maybe edit it a little, tweak it and add some dimensions aspects to it, to provide for a good map after analysis.

So I'm pleading for support, not only for the whole survey construction but also your opinions on the development of our own survey. I have yet to hear someone say we're done here or on what aspect to change it, radically even.

Let us direct the creation of a psychedelic profile in the right direction, it stands or falls with the active support it takes. Are you inspired?
Yes, inspiration is not the only thing, time and energy are also required and I can understand the devotion it would need to realize something we are about to attempt. In case of lacking thereof I ask for your attention on reading up on the matter and spilling your criticism. :)

peace <3
 
Yeah, I would love to get this going. I'm in the middle of a lot of change in my life right now, most notably purchasing my dream home in the mountains. So it'll be a little while, realistically. I fully intend on completing this project though... I (still) think it could be very valuable to the community.
 
Congratulations Xorky baby

On getting what you've striven for :)


Enjoy it <3


& so to business 8o






I've not commented ( or was trashed & cannot remember if I did) on this thread.
My main problem lies in the fact that the language & contexts that will be used are likely to be of white middle class origin. Thus maybe some sort of "classification" will be achieved - but at what cost ? When the dogmatists DEMAND that you speak in their Lingo ( or by implication you're a fool) - pity the Amazonian shaman maybe - or maybe he might have the guile to see straight through the fact that most of us have difficulties communicating simple enough concepts to each other - often without realising it.

I think it an interesting idea I feel that the scope of description could be self limiting tho - which would be maybe more than self defeating.

It's probably worth trying as an exercise in valid communication rather than anything else. Achieve that & perhaps it could be a goer.

I like psychedelics & walking in countryside, crossing rivers, gazing at trees listening to birds, experiencing "synesthesia", laughing like a fool , hiding under the blankets, drinking tea & eating toast etc. & I'm supposed to detatch from this experience in order to " order it/classify it ?

To exactly what end ?

Be interesting to end up with psychedelic heretics - wouldn't it. ?

[edit] I had of course already commented - saying much the same thing in a lot less words.
 
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samadhi_smiles said:
As simply as possible, a morpho-space is a 3-dimensional (or however many dimensions, 3-d is just easy for us to imagine) 'space' that maps out all possibilities for a given state, object, event, etc in accordance to its 3 axes.

Imagine a 2-d morpho-space for vision using brightness and color (very simplistic). You would have one axis plotting brightness from 0 to say 100 (0 being dark 100 being very bright). The other axis would plot the color spectrum (from red to violet). Now, pick a point in the space, you have just chosen a color with a concomittant brightness. Pick another, thats a different color (perhaps the point landed on the same level as the brightness level, then that color would be of the same brightness as your first choice).

Now, lets add 'saturation' to the picture as a 3rd dimension. Now envision this as a cube, an X axis (color), Y axis (brightness), and a Z axis (saturation). Now choose a point IN the cube, you have chosen a particular color, of a particular brightness, with a particular saturation. Move a little down the saturation axis (with the same points for the color and brightness axes) and you have the same color with the same brightness with a bit less saturation. So, you have a way to represent all possibile permutations of color, brightness, and saturation.

Things get a LOT more confusing when you start adding dimensions (I've seen 9-dimension morpho-spaces).

Now, imagine this idea applied to the psychedelic space. Let's start with arousal (level of stimulation) and valence (level of pleasure). So your axis for arousal may run -100 to 100 (from very depressing to neutral to very stimulating). And your valence may run from -100 to 100 (from very unpleasurable to very pleasurable). Now, pick a point along your 2-d morphospace and you have a coordinated point of arousal and valence.

Now, imagine adding about 10 dimensions to this picture (until you have a very weird and complex geometric figure rotating in 'morpho-space') and you may have an accurate way to visually represent the possibilities in the psychedelic space (depending on if you get the axes correct and on point).
I have only read this thread up to this post, but I think this is a promising idea. The thread could look like this:

Substance A:
-dimension 1: 6,9 (10,3,7,9,8,5,4,8,8)
-dimension 2: 2,2 (1,1,4,5,2,1,2,2,1,1)
-dimension 3 (onset in mins): 23:47 (15,40,25,20,18,27,30,17,22)
-dimension 4 (duration in mins): 323 (270,420,360,300,300,360,360,240,300)
...and so on...

Ideally this would be written into a table, this way one could easily figure out which user reported what sort of effect. User 1 in this case would have reported a 10 for the first dimension, a 1 for the second dimension, an onset of 15mins and a duration of about 270mins.

I think it's a brilliant idea. We'd have to come up with what the different dimensions would be though, I could think of a whole lot of traits by which one could judge a psychedelic...
Body load (nausea, muscle tension), emotional aspect (empathy enhancement, personal insights...), duration (onset, plateau, after effects), visual intensity and so on and so on.
 
Any work I'd do on this is still on hold until I can get a copy of the Hallucinogen Rating Scale. I'd put out another call to anyone who might have access to Strassman's study. Does it include a copy of the HRS? Can anyone point me at a copy? All the googling I've done never came up with anything. I really feel like this is the best place to start rather than trying to reinvent the wheel and come up with our own rating criteria.

No point in building a house when I don't even know what the interior is supposed to look like.
 
awesome post crook thats really what I had in mind you articulated it better.

I think at the very least it is in principle a possible thing to make..
 
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