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Comedowns (normally attributed to lack of monoamines?)

aced126

Bluelighter
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May 18, 2015
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Are there any depressants which cause a discernable comedown akin to stimulants? I would think not as no depressants deplete levels of neurotransmitters; they all act in other ways. On the other hand, due to receptor desensitization etc depressants are normally the ones which one builds up a tolerance and gets physically addicted to. You couldn't really be physically addicted to stimulants as you can't stay up forever lol?
 
Hmm.. depressants too have a rebound effect, but as you're saying, it mostly consists of excitation which - depending on tolerance, intensity and other factors - can be anything from pleasurable to absolutely hellish. I think we know pretty much about the monoamines, so there is little surprise, but when viewing all things together it becomes more complicated.

Dissociatives for example have both components. Physically they are more of a stimulant or neutral but not a depressant, but on the mind they can be quite sedating. I remember becoming very sleepy on ketamine. And they are interesting because they're quite unique in that both the acute effects as well as the after effects can be pleasant - that afterglow thingy. It seems that by blocking the NMDAR's, more glutamate gets released, probably through auto-receptors. This should imply a depressant come-down, but there is at least a 1:1 chance to catch a stimulating come-down. My thoughts here are about that one transmitter always inhibits the other above a certain threshold, so when glutamate levels fall, you might get a rise of dopamine.

Also I'm not sure if the monoamine depletion explains it all, it looks like that when you're only using a psychostimulant, but there's no real explanation why adding a NMDA antagonist (memantine can be enough) seems to - at least temporarily - solve the depletion, making the stimulants more sustainable. Oxidative stress plays a role as well, when I used emoxypine along with e.g. isopropylphenidate, there seemed to be much less 'depletion' happening. Smoother comedown, no rebound. And more sustainable. Granted, if dopamine oxidation is a major factor for it's degradation, then this would explain it.

Maybe some tweakers can help out with experiences about staying up forever? ;)

Somehow I have the theory that with enough knowledge and access to the right substances, one would be able to avoid comedowns nearly completely soon.. at least within the biological limits (which are quite elastic, but there are definite limits).
 
dopamimetic said:
Maybe some tweakers can help out with experiences about staying up forever?

ITS OKAY I'M HERE NOW

A neurotransmitter system like dopamine/noradrenaline is very robust, you can keep on making dopamine and never really run out (you would find yourself unable to move like someone with Parkinson's) so sleeping isn't essential to restoring dopamine reserves, but serotonin on the other hand is very fragile and you pretty much need to sleep to recover serotonin. This doesn't set dopamine outside the normal laws of homeostasis however, dopamine receptors do get down regulated and you will start to get addicted when you're going through a shortage of dopamine because you haven't used, and you will even get insomnia when withdrawing from methamphetamine. Unfortunately all the neurotransmitters are linked in one way or another so maybe it's not directly due to lack of dopamine but even by itself dopamine is important for sleep.

GHB is kind of a weird one, dopaminergic at low levels (on the comedown when it's coming out of your system) but highly depressant at normal doses. Not sure if you can really comedown from it though. But I don't think you can call it strictly a depressant if it has dose dependent effects.

If anything GABAergics would up regulate receptors while the GABA interneurons are inhibiting the firing of norm neurons. Maybe this contributes to withdrawal rebound as well.
 
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I thought the dose dependent effects of GHB came from action on the GHB receptor which people mistake for dopaminergic action?
(yep https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ghb/ghb_pharmacology1.shtml )

So it's actually glutaminergic, which you feel at the lower doses and at the higher doses both before and after the major sedative/hypnotic peak.

Unless you are abusing it GHB hardly has a comedown at all, but the more you become dependent on it the more you probably downregulate GABA-B and the like. I'm not quite positive what makes people stroke out or have a heart attack when seriously heavy GHB abusers go cold turkey.
 
Very interesting, yeah I guess wiki implies that at the higher doses the GABA-B effects overpower the GHB receptor meditated dopamine -"Activation of both the GHB receptor and GABA(B) is responsible for the addictive profile of GHB. GHB's effect on dopamine release is biphasic.[82] Low concentrations stimulate dopamine release via the GHB receptor.[83] Higher concentrations inhibit dopamine release via GABA(B) receptors as do other GABA(B) agonists such as baclofen and phenibut.[84] After an initial phase of inhibition, dopamine release is then increased via the GHB receptor. Both the inhibition and increase of dopamine release by GHB are inhibited by opioid antagonists such as naloxone and naltrexone"
 
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