combining remeron (mirtazapine) with classical 5ht psychedelics?
- Thread starter ebola?
- Start date
ebola?
Bluelight Crew
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2001
- Messages
- 22,071
New question:
Mirtazapine is an antagonist at 5ht2a and 5ht2c. The above shows that we don't really know what the deal is with respect to classical psychedelics.
Randomly, I'm also wondering about mcpp. Could remeron block mcpp's agonism at 5ht2c, effectively reducing the anxiety it might induce?
And, no, I haven't bioassayed any of this in the interim.
ebola
Mirtazapine is an antagonist at 5ht2a and 5ht2c. The above shows that we don't really know what the deal is with respect to classical psychedelics.
Randomly, I'm also wondering about mcpp. Could remeron block mcpp's agonism at 5ht2c, effectively reducing the anxiety it might induce?
And, no, I haven't bioassayed any of this in the interim.
ebola
AfterGlow
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2000
- Messages
- 4,544
I was on mirtazapine for 1.5+ years. I don't find it recreational at all. I started at 15 mg and it took me a while to adjust to the dose. After a while I started feeling way too sedated and was raised to 30mg. At higher doses, it has more effect on norepinephrine receptors.
I was on it for depression and anxiety, so needless to say I wasn't taking psychedelics at the same time. I still have a few left and if I become too wired, a few mg will untie that knot in my mind and put me right to sleep. But then for a day or 2 I can't concentrate very well.
I was on it for depression and anxiety, so needless to say I wasn't taking psychedelics at the same time. I still have a few left and if I become too wired, a few mg will untie that knot in my mind and put me right to sleep. But then for a day or 2 I can't concentrate very well.
Jakeperson
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2008
- Messages
- 3,613
I am very interested in this, as I love psychedelics but have recently been put on this for anxiety, depression and sleep issues. Had a week of 30mg, now on day 4 of 45mg and I can't sleep.
But that's irrelevant.
Any first hand experiences with combining this with LSD, Mushrooms etc?
But that's irrelevant.
Any first hand experiences with combining this with LSD, Mushrooms etc?
alantis360
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2003
- Messages
- 1,509
ive stopped a trip with remeron before and went right to sleep. Gives me very bad rls though.
Been on 30mg Remeron daily for about 2 months now, tried mushrooms about a month after I started on it, and had very little effect.
This was my first try with shrooms, and only 1 of the 4 of us felt much effect from it, but we are all in quite different weightclasses and distributed evenly. I'm a small guy, so I guess I should have had at least a mild trip.
I don't feel that much different when smoking weed on the remeron either, and the weird sleeping effects I had when beginning on the mirtazapine has faded away.
To the point, I'm doing some 2c-b tomorrow, and I'm trying to figure what I should expect. Not much reliable info anywhere it seems, so I guess I'll report back soon.
Never did 2c-b before, but tried 2c-i both on and off a MAOI(couldn't sleep forever) so I guess I will have at least something to compare with if something happens.
This was my first try with shrooms, and only 1 of the 4 of us felt much effect from it, but we are all in quite different weightclasses and distributed evenly. I'm a small guy, so I guess I should have had at least a mild trip.
I don't feel that much different when smoking weed on the remeron either, and the weird sleeping effects I had when beginning on the mirtazapine has faded away.
To the point, I'm doing some 2c-b tomorrow, and I'm trying to figure what I should expect. Not much reliable info anywhere it seems, so I guess I'll report back soon.
Never did 2c-b before, but tried 2c-i both on and off a MAOI(couldn't sleep forever) so I guess I will have at least something to compare with if something happens.
MagickalKat777
Bluelight Crew
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2004
- Messages
- 7,020
I know from experience. 30mg of Remeron will completely kill a trip, even as powerful as 5-MeO-AMT, and then knock you out cold.
any major dude
Bluelight Crew
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2009
- Messages
- 2,923
I keep it around specifically for that purpose. I've never had to use it, but i did a trial to see if it would knock out a decent sized 2c-e trip. It did, and at <10mg. Well, honestly, i don't know that it totally killed it, but i definitely felt like i was stopping tripping before i passed out. I quit taking it (and all anti-depressants) several years ago, but I gave up on remeron before the SSRIs as i was sleeping about 12-18hrs a day, kept it though b/c i read it was a 5-HT2a antagonist and thought "hey, i bet i know what that'd be good for." I think 5mg would probably kill a bad trip for me, though the last time i had one i chose to ride it out for some reason. Not sure what my logic was there... apparently i wasn't thinking clearly.
MagickalKat777
Bluelight Crew
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2004
- Messages
- 7,020
Well the nice thing about Remeron is that it has a pretty high safety profile considering its a decendent of the tricyclic anti-depressants.
It has a higher safety profile than the atypicals even, which are all 5HT2a antagonists as well. And it hits faster. IME it hits within 5-10 minutes with the 5HT2a antagonism while the atypicals take about 30 minutes.
It has a higher safety profile than the atypicals even, which are all 5HT2a antagonists as well. And it hits faster. IME it hits within 5-10 minutes with the 5HT2a antagonism while the atypicals take about 30 minutes.
Kind of forgot about this, but the trip was dissapointing. Had some mild visuals after snorting a lot of 2c-b and smoking some pretty good weed, but other than that nothing more than a mild pleasant feel.
I think I'll conclude that for me at least the effects are diminished greatly.
I didn't go to bed until a while after the last 2c-b line, and I think I feel asleep before the remeron started working, so I can't comment if it killed the trip totally in that sense.
I guess I'll have to stop taking remeron some time beforehand if I'm going to trouble myself with trying another trip while still on it.
The Hebrew Hammer
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2006
- Messages
- 585
for me, remeron decreases the psychedelic effects of mushrooms to the point where I feel like I have taken a adulterated extacy pill more than mushrooms... just a general psychedelic vibe but very muted visual distortions, no headfuckery
One time I tried to abort a mushroom trip with a remeron and i experienced what I can only liken to precipitated psychedelic withdrawal, i basically got a headache and nauseated for about 15 minutes, lost coordination and had to sit on the ground by the toilet, after about 15 minutes total, i was fine and able to go to sleep with only minimal residual trip effects.
remeron does not effect my DMT experiences at all
One time I tried to abort a mushroom trip with a remeron and i experienced what I can only liken to precipitated psychedelic withdrawal, i basically got a headache and nauseated for about 15 minutes, lost coordination and had to sit on the ground by the toilet, after about 15 minutes total, i was fine and able to go to sleep with only minimal residual trip effects.
remeron does not effect my DMT experiences at all
supermagneet
Greenlighter
- Joined
- May 28, 2010
- Messages
- 33
I have been on Mirtazapine 30mg - 45mg for about a year, I've rolled succesfully , and tripped on shrooms/LSD/2cb a few times. Shrooms seem a bit weaker, haven't noticed any decrease in MDMA and LSD. For 2cb it seem like I need to up the dose quite a bit.
I've been off Mirtazapine for about a month now, haven't noticed any difference with MDMA/LSD and haven't tried shrooms yet.
I've been off Mirtazapine for about a month now, haven't noticed any difference with MDMA/LSD and haven't tried shrooms yet.
what they said
You know, the Pharmaceutical industry is really big business, and who validates drug testing anyway? Most of what we read about anti-depressants is complete bunk....
Drugs act in ways completely opposite of the way they are supposed to....drugs that antagonize ( supposedly) 5HT2 receptors....should kill a trip...or not let you trip...for me this is not true...
Take TCAs...supposedly, if you trust the research, Big Pharma BS, you would not be able to trip...but just try it ....and other psychonauts attest...a drastic increase in activity of the psychoactive...
so really, the best placebo.....is the best way to end or calm a trip...
I used to think seroquel would kill a trip....but I wouldnt bet on it now.
The brain (human) is quite resiliant...if one receptor is being blocked or shrouded or antagonized...then whos to say...it wont just activate another receptor ...and whala....the trip happens....when the "research" said otherwise..
best way to stop a trip.....dont start it...
You know, the Pharmaceutical industry is really big business, and who validates drug testing anyway? Most of what we read about anti-depressants is complete bunk....
Drugs act in ways completely opposite of the way they are supposed to....drugs that antagonize ( supposedly) 5HT2 receptors....should kill a trip...or not let you trip...for me this is not true...
Take TCAs...supposedly, if you trust the research, Big Pharma BS, you would not be able to trip...but just try it ....and other psychonauts attest...a drastic increase in activity of the psychoactive...
so really, the best placebo.....is the best way to end or calm a trip...
I used to think seroquel would kill a trip....but I wouldnt bet on it now.
The brain (human) is quite resiliant...if one receptor is being blocked or shrouded or antagonized...then whos to say...it wont just activate another receptor ...and whala....the trip happens....when the "research" said otherwise..
best way to stop a trip.....dont start it...
Shameless bump
Just googled this very thing and came across this thread.
To clarify a few things, mirtazapines "knock out" effect is not related to its 5ht2 antagonism, but its histamine type 1 receptor antagonism which it has an affinity approx 60 times stronger than 5ht2.
Just because 5ht2 is being antagonized to an extent does not mean that the whole receptor site is being blocked out. It has been showed that both agonism and antagonism at the 5ht2 receptor ligand has led to desensitization, leading to lower expression of 5ht2 receptor sites. So you would technically need a greater dose to reach the same level of tripping, not only due to mirtazapine but also due to the indirect desensitization.
The theory that mirtazapine can potentate or even cause serotonin syndrome comes from mirtazapines high affinity for the adrenergic 2 type receptor. Antagonism at this ligand has shown to increase overall neurotransmitter release(this is basically mirtazapines primary antidepressive mechanism). But if anything, this could be theoretically lethal to combine with MAO A inhibitors.
Bottom line is, tripping on mirta will require a dose adjustment if you wish to reach the same depth of a trip. It can also be used to kill a trip on a moderate dose(30+mg). And no there is no danger in tripping on mirta, ayahuasca excluding because i cant say for sure what effects the MAOI will have.
Just googled this very thing and came across this thread.
To clarify a few things, mirtazapines "knock out" effect is not related to its 5ht2 antagonism, but its histamine type 1 receptor antagonism which it has an affinity approx 60 times stronger than 5ht2.
Just because 5ht2 is being antagonized to an extent does not mean that the whole receptor site is being blocked out. It has been showed that both agonism and antagonism at the 5ht2 receptor ligand has led to desensitization, leading to lower expression of 5ht2 receptor sites. So you would technically need a greater dose to reach the same level of tripping, not only due to mirtazapine but also due to the indirect desensitization.
The theory that mirtazapine can potentate or even cause serotonin syndrome comes from mirtazapines high affinity for the adrenergic 2 type receptor. Antagonism at this ligand has shown to increase overall neurotransmitter release(this is basically mirtazapines primary antidepressive mechanism). But if anything, this could be theoretically lethal to combine with MAO A inhibitors.
Clarification: You got it all wrong. In a pharmacological point of view you cannot look at a receptor individually, but instead you look at a cell containing a great exponential amount of receptors. Assuming you consume an antagonist leading to an equilibrium of about 60% receptor blockade(binding without action, i.e. antagonism), which depends completely on dosage and Ki value amongst other things, you would still have 40% of the receptors available to occupy at any time which could still successfully trigger the cellfunction. This is all assuming the antagonist and agonist both have the same kinetic affinity, which is almost never the case with 2 different compounds. But the point still stands. Now if agonist affinity is greater than antagonist which may or may not be the case with tryptamines, equilibrium will move to favor the one with greater affinity.
Bottom line is, tripping on mirta will require a dose adjustment if you wish to reach the same depth of a trip. It can also be used to kill a trip on a moderate dose(30+mg). And no there is no danger in tripping on mirta, ayahuasca excluding because i cant say for sure what effects the MAOI will have.
Woaaaaaah this is an old thread, and this is my first bluelight post. However, I have been using bluelight for research purposes for several years, I frequent 420chan so that's why you guys have never seen any of my OC on here.
I did an experiment in combining Mirtazapine with LSA not too long ago, on the tail end of that trip, and I found that it actually increased psychedelic effects, and did not kill the LSA trip from as far as I can tell, this was at a dose of 8 hbwr seeds and 30mg mirtazapine taken 4 hours after the LSA extract was consumed.
On it's own, mirtazapine actually has some "psychedelic" properties, depending on how you want to define psychedelic. The best way I can explain it is, about 30-45 minutes after dosing mirtazapine, or when going to bed prior to having ingested mirtazapine for the night (as it is a medicine prescribed to be taken at night before sleep, it's often prescribed for insomnia btw), the closed eye visuals feel delirious yet dissociating all at the same time, but there's also a mix of more classic psychedelic visual effects such as things folding in on themselves turning into fractal-esque patterns. It's like being in a 3rd person camera mode from a video game, but only in CEV's. All these effects are only in CEVS!
These are just what I've noticed from it, and from combining it with a classic 5-HT2a agonizing psychedelic.
I did an experiment in combining Mirtazapine with LSA not too long ago, on the tail end of that trip, and I found that it actually increased psychedelic effects, and did not kill the LSA trip from as far as I can tell, this was at a dose of 8 hbwr seeds and 30mg mirtazapine taken 4 hours after the LSA extract was consumed.
On it's own, mirtazapine actually has some "psychedelic" properties, depending on how you want to define psychedelic. The best way I can explain it is, about 30-45 minutes after dosing mirtazapine, or when going to bed prior to having ingested mirtazapine for the night (as it is a medicine prescribed to be taken at night before sleep, it's often prescribed for insomnia btw), the closed eye visuals feel delirious yet dissociating all at the same time, but there's also a mix of more classic psychedelic visual effects such as things folding in on themselves turning into fractal-esque patterns. It's like being in a 3rd person camera mode from a video game, but only in CEV's. All these effects are only in CEVS!
These are just what I've noticed from it, and from combining it with a classic 5-HT2a agonizing psychedelic.
Solipsis
Bluelight Crew
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2007
- Messages
- 15,509
The latter effects are probably more accurately described as hypnogogic..
but yes sometimes you can trip on mirtazapine... dissociatives worked for me, and 5-MeO-DMT (combined with MXE / K ) also worked for me and was very intense. The effects from 5-MeO-DMT are also partially mediated by 5HT1a I think, and mirtazapine may have different effects on different subtypes.
but yes sometimes you can trip on mirtazapine... dissociatives worked for me, and 5-MeO-DMT (combined with MXE / K ) also worked for me and was very intense. The effects from 5-MeO-DMT are also partially mediated by 5HT1a I think, and mirtazapine may have different effects on different subtypes.