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  • AADD Moderators: swilow | Vagabond696

codeine rants and questions

cumfortablynumb

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Sep 20, 2016
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Long time reader, first time poster. Have appreciated all the useful discussion and information, signed up to ask some questions.

SWIM has been a lifelong alcoholic, 25 years of 15-20 full strength beers a day almost every day. Last year SWIM was thinking of quitting and at about the same time through a pleasant coincidence had some codeine. SWIM very much enjoyed it because while it gave similar warm fuzzy feelings as alcohol and is a great relaxant it also made him want to be around people and talk with them more, whereas alcohol tended to isolate him. He was taking a low-mid dose of 120~200mg CWE once a week as an alternative to drinking. As a very pleasant side effect the sex on codeine was amazing, very connected and SWIMs gf was also super impressed at how long it lasted, and no hangover either.

Fast forward a year and a half and SWIM successfully gave up drinking almost a year ago, and stayed straight for the same amount of time but a couple of months ago was looking for something to have as a once a week treat so went back to codeine. There must be something to the story about alcoholics needing less codeine than regular folks because SWIM found he needed about double what he used to take to get the same effect and has been having 250~300mg once a week for the past couple months. SWIM is 110kg and reasonably fit. SWIM also tried 150mg DXM with 300mg codeine to good effect after first trying 50mg DXM and 200mg codeine and having no real effect.

So some random questions in no particular order;

is once a week 300mg codeine long term going to become an issue in terms of health/addiction? SWIM is happy with what hes getting out of it and hasn't noticed any diminishing returns.

Same question as above but addimg DXM?

Anything else SWIM might want to consider which would have similar/better effects considering what SWIM enjoys about codeine? While getting codeine still isn't an issue, looking into the future medsassist seems like its going to be a future less bright in a year or two.

Thanks!
 
Hey mate. Welcome to Bluelight.

We aren't allowed to use SWIM here - we all know who you are talking about :)
 
You must be a very strong-willed individual to have quit drinking so much for so long. You (or SWIM) should be very proud of you effort there. I'm curious as to how you managed during that year and a bit where you were totally sober. Did I read that right? You were entirely clean for over a year? How was it? If you employed coping mechanisms, is there any reason you couldn't try those again? (not judging, just asking.)

Compared to your previous alcohol addiction, taking 300mg of codeine and 150mg of DXM once a week is not going to be of any particular health concern provided your liver is still functioning normally. That's a pretty hefty amount of DXM, by the way. Is that purely to potentiate the codeine? Do you find it bringing its own effect into the experience?

The problem with codeine is that you're not likely to be using it just once a week. As mentioned before, you must be a very strong person to have broken free of alcohol so perhaps you would be able to keep the use steady. But there are plenty of people here on Bluelight who will tell you about trying to just use codeine (or heroin, or oxy, etc) just once or twice a week, and how it became more frequent and eventually a full blown dependence.

Perhaps try to avoid thinking of it as a "once a week" thing, and keep it as a "once in every now and then". In my experience, trying to put things into a schedule is a sure sign that you are already in the mindset of inevitable addiction. The fact that you need to have that one "special day per week" suggests that you are craving escape. I don't blame you. I'm just trying to answer your question in a balanced way. Good luck with it, someone who IS you.
 
I can take 30mgs of codiene a day and never increase the dose, I have benders infrequently on my absolute favorite drug, 4-MMC (Mephedrone) BUT put a bottle of any alcohol in front of me and I will drink it.

Well done OP! be very proud of your effort
 
A lot of good questions in there, and since I've used "rant" in the title I feel ready to answer them fully ;-) It seems they're divided into 3 broad sections; alcoholism, escapism and codeine/dxm effects. I'll try to answer them in that way. I've chopped your text up to make it fit the categories, I hope the original meaning hasn't been skewed

You must be a very strong-willed individual to have quit drinking so much for so long. You (or SWIM) should be very proud of you effort there. I'm curious as to how you managed during that year and a bit where you were totally sober. Did I read that right? You were entirely clean for over a year? How was it? If you employed coping mechanisms, is there any reason you couldn't try those again? (not judging, just asking.)

High functioning alcoholism is harder to give up because by definition it has a lot fewer impacts on your life. Like most long term high functioning alcoholics my drinking was stable rather than binging, and managed just like work would be. Time is allowed, financial concerns weren't a problem and I never had issues with the law or relationships/work. I'd consume a steady 2 drinks an hour for 8-10 hours a day, live a normal life and still get up and go to work like anybody. Poor nutrition and alcoholism seem to go hand in hand, but I've always cooked and eaten well. I think a lot of the physical effects of alcoholism come from poor nutrition and the effects of sugar on the brain. That's an aside though. I also lead a healthy life and stay in shape, as well as keeping busy. I drink alone mostly, but drinking wouldn't be the main focus; I'd be working on a boat or car while drinking, reading a book or listening to music etc. I haven't owned a TV for 30 years but still have a very fulfilling life. This is one of the big issues with high functioning alcholism; it's easy to give up drinking if drinking is wrecking your life or preventing you from achieving work and relationship goals, impacting your health or leading towards missing out on an enjoyable life.... but if you already have all those things but you just add alcohol, then taking away alcohol is a net loss rather than a gain, and you're likely to grieve for it.

The main impacts of alcoholism for me were no longer being a size 36 jeans (went up to a 38 over 20 years), and the restriction that drinking put on how I use my time. I did a lot of good things while drinking, but would miss out for example on being able to drive due to drinking. I also often wouldnt attend events because I couldn't be served the amount of alcohol I want. In much the same vein, I wouldn't often eat at places where you can't be served alcohol or I would eat earlier if eating there so I could be home in time to drink.

I can't say what motivated me to stop, I guess age is a factor. 40 seemed like a milestone to me, and it seemed like as good a time as any to give up. I've been married twice and no kids and would like to have kids, so becoming more socially acceptable was a factor too. I did date a single mum during my drinking days and gave up drinking completely for the 18 months that we were together. It was pretty easy to give it up and I very much enjoyed the time spent with her son doing dad stuff. When it came time to give up on my own I really had a hard time of it because I couldn't find motivation so eventually checked in to the detox at herbert st st leonards after doing some research. It was a good experience and easier than I thought. I didnt do rehab after my detox. I'm neither proud of having given up nor ashamed of drinking.

Following that I got a personal trainer with the goal of getting back to a size 36. 3 months did it. I fill my time up with more out door stuff these days. I still miss drinking sometimes, but not really. I'm planning to have a beer at christmas with a friend who also gave up drinking at much the same time as I did. Life without alcohol is boring sometimes, but I'm engaged and planning to have kids probably next year or the following which is something I'm very much looking forward to. I didn't need any coping mechanisms during the time that's elapsed since giving up drinking, but I did take antabuse for the first few months to prevent the temptation of drinking. A trigger for me is often the combination of severe physical exhaustion (from work), difficult customers stressing the shit out of me, deals going wrong and equipment breakage/theft. I run a small business and while I don't want to say what my job is, it's extremely hazardous with a high injury/death rate, physically very demanding, highly paid and can be a bit intense. I'm not a highly strung person and have always worked in similar fields and related industries, but when you get the perfect storm it's nice to have a "switch off" which for me is have some beers and relax.


Compared to your previous alcohol addiction, taking 300mg of codeine and 150mg of DXM once a week is not going to be of any particular health concern provided your liver is still functioning normally. That's a pretty hefty amount of DXM, by the way. Is that purely to potentiate the codeine? Do you find it bringing its own effect into the experience?

I've been researching codeine trying to figure what the effects are long term at that dosage, as well as if theres a switchover point in terms of dosage/frequency where addiction becomes more likely. I wouldn't say I have an addictive personality, but I am looking for something that's a relaxant and nice to have in my life. I've had codeine about 15-20 times over a few years, and DXM twice (recently). I'd read different things about DXM, some scary some interesting. I can't see myself being interested in DXM by itself especially second/third plateau type experiences. The things I read about the effects on your brain long term and at high doses put me off, on top of which that type of buzz just isn't my thing. I was mainly trying it to potentiate the codeine.

I tried it initially at 50dxm/200 codeine after reading that you should try about half your normal codeine dose at the 50dxm was a good place to start. I had no noticeable effect form the dxm, and not much of the usual codeine effect so a couple weeks later I tried 150dxm/300 codeine. The effect was very noticeable, heavier (in a good way) and darker hitting. I did notice the (expected) respiratory slow down. The muscle relaxant effect/pain reduction is something I enjoy as a result of my work, and I often like to cook/walk around when on codeine because it seems to have more of a feel than just sitting or doing nothing. I don't drive/work/put myself at physical risk. I did notice from the 150 that i had slight darkening of vision, and felt a very mild nausea which made me have a lie down for about 15 min at the 2 hr mark. I'd had the dxm at hour 0 and the codeine and 30min. I felt nothing from the DXM at 30 min and codeine started kicking in at about 50min and heavy at 1 hr. I got a pretty good/heavy 3 hr ride out of it from the time it kicked in, tapering off at 4 hrs (from 0) and still very pleasant for the remainder of the night with a nice inner smile the next morning. I don't know that I'd make DXM a regular thing, but it did add something to the experience. I had a fairly vivid/graphic nightmare the following evening which may have been unrelated.


The problem with codeine is that you're not likely to be using it just once a week. As mentioned before, you must be a very strong person to have broken free of alcohol so perhaps you would be able to keep the use steady. But there are plenty of people here on Bluelight who will tell you about trying to just use codeine (or heroin, or oxy, etc) just once or twice a week, and how it became more frequent and eventually a full blown dependence.

Perhaps try to avoid thinking of it as a "once a week" thing, and keep it as a "once in every now and then". In my experience, trying to put things into a schedule is a sure sign that you are already in the mindset of inevitable addiction. The fact that you need to have that one "special day per week" suggests that you are craving escape. I don't blame you. I'm just trying to answer your question in a balanced way. Good luck with it, someone who IS you.

That's all good input and just the sort of information I'm looking for. I don't want this to lead on to a bigger habit or other substances and I'm not looking to get experience with other substances. I guess I'm looking for an alcohol replacement, which could be a sign that I'm not done giving up drinking.

Escape is an interesting word to use and I had to give it some thought for a couple of days. It's hard to say which things are escape, and which things are part of life or add to it rather than take us away from it. It's all the harder to say because what could be an escape from life for some is a part of life for others. Even in terms of simple activities, like meditation or long distance running - some people are using these activities as an escape, while for others it adds something to life. It's a good distinction to draw and to think on. It's something that each person has to decide for themselves.

For me, there's definitely some element of escapism in codeine use. I wouldnt say it's a primary motivation, but it's there. My general habit on my "treat day" is to have a day off, have a sleep in, wake up late (9am), skip breakfast, watch some porn and jerk off, go for a ride, come home and have the codeine about 2pm. It's a personal moment and a pleasant experience. My partner gets home about 5:30 and by that time the codeine ride is tapering off. She isn't aware and wouldn't be impressed if she knew. That's a separate issue for discussion. At that time I'm still feeling very warm and fuzzy and we have quite an intimate night which is a lovely thing to look forward to also. The whole package of pain reduction/relaxation, the head buzz, fuzziness, nodding, intimacy and warmth is quite a treat.

I don't want it to get to higher doses/more regular dosing. I'd be happy to reduce it to twice a month but I'm the type of person who likes to have a goal/reward to work towards, and I tend to function that way with most of my life, like achieve a certain amount of work and reward myself with lunch, achieve a financial goal and reward myself with a holiday etc, and if I want to reward myself with something (say buying a new motorbike) then I'll set a goal to reach before I'll allow myself to buy it. Not all of life is fulfilling and glorious, and while we could say that it ought to be the fact remains that much of it is always going to be mundane and hum drum, so having something to look forward to brings a bit of momentum to life.

The 7 day week has an interesting history, and it's the only measure of time we have which has no correlation to anything in nature. Minutes and hours of a day are all connected to the sun, years and months correlate to the movements of the planets and moons... and all of our astrological events are measured and noticed. The 7 day week has no connection to anything in the universe and is purely man made concept yet strangely pretty much every culture in the world came up with it independantly of each other. Attempts by the french and russians to do away with the 7 day week were catastrophic. I can only think that psychologically we all need to have a discreet unit of time which is longer than a few days but less than a month so we have something to look forward to. For some it's a few beers on the weekend or going shopping, for others recreational substance use.
 
GENERAL NOTE: to anyone who finds that this topic resonates and may be taking codeine in doses well above the standard recommended amounts, please note that these amounts must only be taken via a CWE, which is a Cold Water Extraction. There is a wealth of information easily available online about this simple process. DO NOT take large amounts of codeine tablets which also contain paracetamol (acetaminophen) –the main ingredient in Panadol – as this will do severe damage to your liver.


RESPONSE:


First off: It's clear that you are very self-aware so I'm not going to pretend to have any kind of concrete answers. What I and others here can do,however, is talk it out with you so you can come to your own conclusions. That's all anyone can ever really do, anyway.


All things considered, you sound like a very well-adjusted, grounded person. The picture you painted in your post sounds totally understandable and relatable to most people. You are responsible, self-sufficient, have a fairly full life... but something's missing. You mentioned being goal oriented, which is something else I'm sure most people can relate to. We need things to look forward to, but something material things don't cut it.


Excuse me if I'm going off track here, but it sounds like there are times when you just want to be able to relax and just enjoy the moment but that state can't be achieved by yourself. You made a great point about use of the word 'escape', and it's something I've given some thought to myself. Personally, I've used some substances (usually opiates) over the years to enhance situations. Nothing fancy like a party or whatever. More like simple things such as what you described in the quiet intimacy with your partner.


I used the word escape because, for myself anyway, I found that opiates were simply removing something unpleasant in me which was acting as a barrier to enjoyment of the simple (and best) things in life – the quiet times where you can just be in whatever you're doing. Eventually I became aware that the opiates' function was that of negation rather than adding anything. I felt like I could be more myself without the distraction of... whatever it was that was bothering me. Hence, I was escaping from something.


Once again,sorry if I'm going off the course that you're on. I feel it is significant, however, because I began my 'career' of opiate dependence (around 7 years now) with codeine and it came from a state of mind which sounds quite similar to the one you have described.


It's a personal moment and a pleasant experience.

I kicked off from there, too. And during the times I used enough I realised that I was carrying around a huge amount of tension that was so much a part of me I hadn't even realised that it was there and that it was having a detrimental effect on every facet of my life. The opiate windows into a life without that tension were a revelation: "This is how it's meant to be!".


I don't want it to get to higher doses/more regular dosing. I'd be happy to reduce it to twice a month but I'm the type of person who likes to have a goal/reward to work towards

I managed to do quite well with my use schedule for probably a good couple of years.That place – the hidden refuge – becomes precious, and it's very hard to let go of. It requires maintenance in the form of increased doses, and eventually stronger agents. Now, someone out there might be able to chime in and disprove me here, but I believe there is no such thing as a perfect stable dose which will keep your tolerance on an even keel forever – even with moderate, irregular use.


I believe you know yourself well and have a good store of self-control. You know already, however, that you have a strong desire to use these escapist/enhancement agents. You said yourself:

I guess I'm looking for an alcohol replacement, which could be a sign that I'm not done giving up drinking.

I'm sorry that I can't give you any useful kind of advice. It really isn't my intention to write a "warning: don't use drugs!"tale of "this could happen to you" kind of thing, because that has never stopped anyone. More importantly, it doesn't help get to the real issue at the heart of the matter. What exactly that issue is... that's your journey. I haven't figured out that part for myself yet. It's taken all this time just to realise it exists and to look inside rather than projecting it out onto the world.


Best of luck and keep us updated.
 
is once a week 300mg codeine long term going to become an issue in terms of health/addiction? SWIM is happy with what hes getting out of it and hasn't noticed any diminishing returns.

Opiates are an extremely difficult beast to tame. It requires an immense amount of pain before you become conditioned enough to stop putting your hand onto the hot plate. The root cause of opiate addiction is the same for as it is with alcoholism. Though opiate withdrawal syndrome is decidedly less potentially fatal then going through withdrawals from alcohol.

Addiction and the physiological mechanism that we call tolerance can be described as follows. When you take codeine only around 10% of it metabalises into morphine which in turn turns into two chemicals. M6G and M3G. The stuff that makes you high is M6G. Whilst M3G turns on a part of your brain that causes your body to produce these nasty inflammation chemicals called cytokines.

As you take more codeine, every day, and as the levels of M3G build up, more of these cytokines build up. You would feel them if it wasn't for the M6G. In fact if codeine/morphine/heroin didn't have M6G and you took it you'd go into instantaneous dope sickness (or the misnomer that we call withdrawals). But the reason why you need more codeine (aka tolerance) is because you need more to break through the discomfort/pain that the M3G is causing with these cytokines and get the same high as you felt before.

Same question as above but addimg DXM?

poly drug use causes all sorts of potential problems. Long term DXM use has its problems, especially with consumed with sorbital that comes with the cough mixtures. Don't take DXM regularly.

If you want access to superior drugs then look up the dark net. From a harm minimisation point of view using over the counter remedies to potentiate opiates is dangerous, not least the cost and complexity.

Anything else SWIM might want to consider which would have similar/better effects considering what SWIM enjoys about codeine? While getting codeine still isn't an issue, looking into the future medsassist seems like its going to be a future less bright in a year or two.

You can increase the amount of codeine metabalised by consuming grapefruit juice before hand. Wait a little while and then take your codeine.

Yes its becoming increasingly controlled because so many people don't CWE which is in turn causing huge amount of liver damage from consuming chronic doses of APAP (paracetamol)

As I was saying from the beginning opiates are a metaphorical monster under our current regime. There are heaps of people coming into their middle age that are becoming addicted to opiates, usually through years of occasional use. The specalist in addiction medicine i was talking to said that it used to be thought that people grow out of addiction but that after a hitaus of a decade or two there is a huge trend of older people returning to opiate use.

Because of how we prescribe in Australia, with nature of law enforcement and the poor quality of our black market this means economic ruin. Unless you're in the top 0.5% of earners (fuck i'm in the top 1% myself and i can't afford it) there is no way for one to earn enough to pay the sorts of habits you'll end up getting.

If you can stop now I would highly recommend it.
 
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