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Circumventing Gabapentin's saturation levels at LAT1 & LAT2???

AlphaOdure

Bluelighter
Joined
Jul 7, 2003
Messages
1,412
Simply put... would rectal administration circumvent the l-amino acid transporter(s) saturation? Allowing for non-stacking dosing? OR.. no matter what the ROA are LAT1 and LAT2 used to transport GP across the BBB? & therefore plugging wouldn't make much difference aside from lowering the dose for psychoactive effect? (as commonly, albeit anecdotally, reported by the few gabapentin pluggers on here)

I'm just curious b/c then i wouldn't have to wait every hour via the stacking method (making a gabapentin experience a whole planned out day ordeal) & could load up a few 20mL's or so w/ my full intended dose & plug w/in a matter of 10-20 min or so (injecting all that water, have to do pretty slowly & carefully w/o giving myself an unwanted enema lol).

Anyone have any speculation or info on this? Or is this a naive question when it comes to pharmacokinetics & metabolism?
 
And since i'm using rectal administration, could i concurrently dose orally & not over saturate whichever LAT transporter isn't being used since we're acting w/ different tissues here? (gut for oral.. & rectum for plugging obviously..)

Meaning... instead of having to stack 400mg every 45-60min orally. Could I stack 800mg (400mg plugged+400mg oral) & not over saturate? And/or does rectal ROA even allow for higher doses before saturation levels are reached? As i asked above... instead of making gabapentin an an all-day planned out ordeal; could the full, unstacked dose perhaps be plugged slowly over 20 minutes or so (to prevent unwanted enemas or anything)..??? Or does the LA-transporter have similar limitations via this route?

Or am i totally off base here w/ my understanding of pharmacokinetics...?? heh

(currently experimenting w/ 300mg every 45-60hr rectally administered; accept for first dose which was oral, w/ cola & naproxen. Have dosed rectally twice since then. Surprisingly feeling something, although may have been a bit of nifoxipam i took earlier... however, it does feel distinctly "gabapentin" like since i'm bit more stimulated & less coordinated. & this is surprising b/ci just stacked 3,000mg of gabapentin yesterday! Which honestly felt like TOO much.. must've been way too long; b/c I used to dose 800mg 10x; yay, i hope my tolerance stays this low! as i don't tend on abusing it)
 
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to break it down... when dosing gabapentin, here's my questions:
  • are there different L-amine-transporters for the stomach vs. the rectum/intestine?
  • If there are different transporters (which get over saturated w/ gabapentin as dosages goes up, hence the "stacking" method)...
  • could higher doses be taken at once w/o over saturation if oral & plugging RAO's are concurrently used? Assuming different l-amine-transporters are used to bring gabapentin across the BBB?

Any speculation? any ideas? I've read anecdotally that gabapentin is very effective via plugging btw. (currently dosing 10 300mg's via this route tonight, every hour, to see how it turns out..however, first dose was oral & did use 3,000mg of gabapentin yesterday--orally--to overpowering effects. So perhaps, yes, tolerance will factor in, but given how strong the experience was, i'm hoping i'll still get somethihg out of it. & i am so far fter 1500mg, or 5 pills.. sedation, discoloration, mood-lift,neuropathic back & leg pain are both toasted, disinhibition, no need for my usual benzo intake--although highly tempted b/c i know they mix sooo well! lol)
 
C'MON??????? no one knows nothing? no speculation?

should i post this somewhere else?
 
I'm not sure where I've read it but is it gabapentin that has "abuse" potential? I know this drug as an anti epileptic drug so how do other drugs belonging in the same class stack up? are the others as abusable as gabapentin? Drugs like tiagabine or sabril, etc. Since this is the pharmacology forum/thread, does gabapentin affect the gaba neurotransmitter? Does gabapentin make one feel better? I have some obsessive compulsive disorder that I have dealt with for years and from what I have been told and from research it is the gaba-ergic drugs that have the power to destroy all OCD symptoms. True? GHB belong in this class of drugs as well, so is gabapentin a good candidate for OCD, if anyone knows? I've read about some of its off-label uses for bi polar disorder and so on. Oh, speaking of anti epileptic drugs that's also reported in destroying all obsessions, Phenytoin is another one. So my curiosity now is, what's the deal with anti epileptic drugs and its many off label uses?

I think my injury to the back of my head from a car accident as a child resulted in me having OCD. From what I understand the GABA neurotransmitter is linked to spinal cord injuries, something I do not have but an injury to the back of the head may have played a role in me having OCD and perhaps the anxiety/panic attacks. My head injury is right by the "crown" of my head on the left side.

"GABA - a neurotransmitter; thought to play a role in spinal cord injuries; some drugs work by affecting the transmission of GABA"
 
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This is off topic & i found info on my OP through trial & error, but i'll answer your questions ongos:
No, not all ant epileptic drugs are abusable. none of the other ones you mentioned anyway. Gabapentin just happens to be an antiepileptic, as thats what it was originally approved for by the FDA.

but it is used for many other things these days since it is so weak (such high doses are needed) as an antiepileptic: now it’s used mostly as a treatment for neuropathic pain & anxiety, but also as a mood stabilizer. I’ve had life long issues w/ depression & anxiety & mood—and GBP is the only drug that has been effective in treating these, no SSRIs, SNRIs, SNDRIs, atypicals, tricyclics, tetracyclics, etc; they were all crap. But GBP allows me to finally function- I engage in my old hobbies once again, I’m able to converse & be comfortable around friends & family unlike before when I’d isolate in my basement 24/7 due to anxiety. So it certainly works for psychiatric disorders. But I’m no doctor & can’t tell you if it would help your OCD; usually SSRIs are the first line of treatment for this.

GBP was originally developed by Pfizer to mimic the GABA receptor & by theory create some action there w/ less abuse potential than traditional GABAergics. However, after human trials it was found to not even touch the GABA receptors, but, rather it affects several different areas: it interacts with voltage-gated calcium channels (most likely contributing to its antiepileptic action) & (from wiki) “it binds to the α2δ subunit (1 and 2) and has been found to reduce calcium currents after chronic but not acute application via an effect on trafficking.”

Some newer studies have shown that GBP facilitates GABA biosynthesis via modulating the enzymes glutamate decarboxylase and branched chain aminotransferase.Its been shown that GBP doesn’t interact w/ the traditional antiepileptic target areas such as NMDA receptors, glutamate, sodium or L-type calcium ion channels (like drugs phenytoin).

But yes, GBP can & is very recreational. Some people prefer its effects over benzos actually. It causes an anxiolytic effect w/ more stimulation, disinhibition , but sometimes w/ more unwanted (in my opinion) drunken like feelings/ataxia at higher doses (which tend to visibly affect gait & speech). However, these recreational effects diminish very quickly if used daily. You must take a few days breaks in between attempts to reach recreational effects to get that same feeling, the longer the break the better (however, my findings from my OP which I’ll post below my challenge that). However, for best therapeutic effect w/ neuropathy, daily use is recommended.. as it takes time to "build up" this positive effect.
have some obsessive compulsive disorder that I have dealt with for years and from what I have been told and from research it is the gaba-ergic drugs that have the power to destroy all OCD symptoms. True? GHB belong in this class of drugs as well, so is gabapentin a good candidate for OCD, if anyone knows?

Actually, SSRIs are used as first line treatments for OCD.. not GABAergics. & certainly not the recreational drug GHB, which is a GABA-b agonist & has a very different mode of action than most GABAergics on the pharmaceutical market today- which modulate the GABA-a receptor via targeting certain subunits to facilitate different GABAergic effects (z-drugs like ambien target alpha-1 GABA-a subunit for example b/c its more inclined to induce sleep).

Oh, speaking of anti epileptic drugs that's also reported in destroying all obsessions, Phenytoin is another one. So my curiosity now is, what's the deal with anti epileptic drugs and its many off label uses?

I think so many antiepileptics tend to have so many different off label uses b/c they tend to affect a wide range of receptor systems, depending on the drug. & i personally haven't heard of phenytoin "destroying all obsessions" as an off label use, but i could be wrong. AFAIK its primarily still only used as an antiepileptic.
 
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Ok so i did some self experimentation w/ plugging gabapentin... my original question:

to break it down... when dosing gabapentin, here's my questions:
are there different L-amine-transporters for the stomach vs. the rectum/intestine?
If there are different transporters (which get over saturated w/ gabapentin as dosages goes up, hence the "stacking" method)...
could higher doses be taken at once w/o over saturation if oral & plugging RAO's are concurrently used? Assuming different l-amine-transporters are used to bring gabapentin across the BBB?

Today, was my 3rd day in a row using higher doses of GBP & i usually get zero to no recreational effects from the same dose at this point. However, I dosed the same amount: 300mg 10x stacked, every hour. Except this time, I took 300mg orally & plugged 300mg concurrently. I used my usual potentiation methods of naproxen before taking oral (& yes, even plugged a naproxen to see if it helps w/ intestinal absorption).

Results:
I was ripped, just as high as i was on day one one i stacked all my doses orally. To me? this seems to imply there are different l-amine transporters used for GBP in the gut & intestines... therefore over saturation can be avoided & higher doses can be achieved more quickly via the stack method if plugging is used. Now, this is just my experience though...
 
anxiolytic effect w/ more stimulation
This is an interesting topic, as I have been trying to get behind the science of these interesting acute effects of pregabalin & gabapentin that seem to be somewhat independent of the anti epileptic activity that comes with chronic use (look here). I've read about phenytoin having some interesting mentally-calming anti-obsessive effects before but I did not continue the research on it and did not try it for myself as it seemed to have too strong adverse effects.
 
This is an interesting topic, as I have been trying to get behind the science of these interesting acute effects of pregabalin & gabapentin that seem to be somewhat independent of the anti epileptic activity that comes with chronic use (look here). I've read about phenytoin having some interesting mentally-calming anti-obsessive effects before but I did not continue the research on it and did not try it for myself as it seemed to have too strong adverse effects.
Sodium Valproate has been helpful for this, for me in the past, if it's something non-addictive and calming/anti-obsessing you are after.
 
It can have some really bad physical side effects, this is why I've avoided to try valproate yet, but thanks!
 
It can have some really bad physical side effects, this is why I've avoided to try valproate yet, but thanks!

Same here... well, not so much bad side effects, but i put on about 30 lbs. ugh. And i tapered off & felt EXACTLY the same.



ANYWAY...
We ARE after all getting off topic of plugging GBP (gabapentin)
 
Why not try the latest and greatest - pregabalin?

Would if i could. Just saw my pain doc for the very first time..so we may get there. on the first visit i'm grateful that she even gave me those GBP's on my first visit.
 
The saturation of LAT1 for gabapentin occurs primarily in the small intestine. This is why higher doses lead to lower BA as this is where the transporter gets saturated. Maybe 15% of gabapentin penetrates the CNS (comparing levels in CSF vs plasma tells us this) so it is unlikely LAT1 get saturated there.

LAT1 is also far less expressed in the colon vs small intestine so plugging may be rather ineffective. I think really only spacing the doses several hours apart is the only way to get around this.

But other transporters may be involved either in the GI tract or at the BBB. I will check it out.
 
hmm...well Kittycat.. i definitely got HUUUGELY psychoactive effects on day 3 from the same does i took on day 1 of 3 days of constant experimentation...

so there must be something going on there. B/c i've tried stacking method orally on the third day of concurrent use got extremely diminished results

So i DEFINITELY expect some sort of different/alternative GBP transporter at play here. plugging ws extremely effective WITH concurrent oral use (Better than either of these sole ROAs on their own)
 
Ive been reading a bit and there are other transporters involved but have nothing concrete yet about which ones and where they are expressed.

And LAT1 may be saturable at the BBB despite what I said there. Reading up on that too. I will post more info when I find it.

I wasnt doubting your experience alphaodure. Just think LAT1 has little to do with it.
 
It would help if you had more info. on this or I could just google it...

what separates it from gabapentin?

Strange that pregabalin is a schedule 5 drug...and gabapentin isn't.

Why not try the latest and greatest - pregabalin?
 
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how is gabapentin prescribed, for what condition so that way my insurance covers it? Is it for pain? For epilepsy? I doubt it would be prescribed to me for OCD.

Would if i could. Just saw my pain doc for the very first time..so we may get there. on the first visit i'm grateful that she even gave me those GBP's on my first visit.
 
SSRI for OCD may work for some but my Zoloft never worked for it. SSRIs are also "first line treatment" for depression yet there's nothing more effective than dopaminergics/stimulants like amphetamines for depression (addiction potential is there because it actually makes you confident in living!)! So go figure! The reason why gabaergics aren't first line treatment for OCD is because it's not approve for such use but SSRIs are. There was 1 article I read that scientists are now just looking into GABAergics as possible use for ADHD instead of the traditional ADHD meds which are amphetamines (dopaminergics/norepinephrine). And depression is being looked into as more of a dopamine/norepinephrine problem rather than the traditional serotonin "hypothesis" of depression. Also, considering ADHD and OCD can be co morbids! Also, since I'm too busy focusing on whatever it was I am obsessing with, this is where my "ADHD" is locked in. I'd lose focus on what's important so I end up focusing on what isn't=ADHD/OCD.

I read of phenytoin destroying all obsessions from the book called Smart Drugs and Nutrients volume 1, and here's a link to that same page about it:

http://www.smart-publications.com/b...ec-5/smart-drugs-and-nutrients-sec5-phenytoin

This is off topic & i found info on my OP through trial & error, but i'll answer your questions ongos:
No, not all ant epileptic drugs are abusable. none of the other ones you mentioned anyway. Gabapentin just happens to be an antiepileptic, as thats what it was originally approved for by the FDA.

but it is used for many other things these days since it is so weak (such high doses are needed) as an antiepileptic: now it’s used mostly as a treatment for neuropathic pain & anxiety, but also as a mood stabilizer. I’ve had life long issues w/ depression & anxiety & mood—and GBP is the only drug that has been effective in treating these, no SSRIs, SNRIs, SNDRIs, atypicals, tricyclics, tetracyclics, etc; they were all crap. But GBP allows me to finally function- I engage in my old hobbies once again, I’m able to converse & be comfortable around friends & family unlike before when I’d isolate in my basement 24/7 due to anxiety. So it certainly works for psychiatric disorders. But I’m no doctor & can’t tell you if it would help your OCD; usually SSRIs are the first line of treatment for this.

GBP was originally developed by Pfizer to mimic the GABA receptor & by theory create some action there w/ less abuse potential than traditional GABAergics. However, after human trials it was found to not even touch the GABA receptors, but, rather it affects several different areas: it interacts with voltage-gated calcium channels (most likely contributing to its antiepileptic action) & (from wiki) “it binds to the α2δ subunit (1 and 2) and has been found to reduce calcium currents after chronic but not acute application via an effect on trafficking.”

Some newer studies have shown that GBP facilitates GABA biosynthesis via modulating the enzymes glutamate decarboxylase and branched chain aminotransferase.Its been shown that GBP doesn’t interact w/ the traditional antiepileptic target areas such as NMDA receptors, glutamate, sodium or L-type calcium ion channels (like drugs phenytoin).

But yes, GBP can & is very recreational. Some people prefer its effects over benzos actually. It causes an anxiolytic effect w/ more stimulation, disinhibition , but sometimes w/ more unwanted (in my opinion) drunken like feelings/ataxia at higher doses (which tend to visibly affect gait & speech). However, these recreational effects diminish very quickly if used daily. You must take a few days breaks in between attempts to reach recreational effects to get that same feeling, the longer the break the better (however, my findings from my OP which I’ll post below my challenge that). However, for best therapeutic effect w/ neuropathy, daily use is recommended.. as it takes time to "build up" this positive effect.


Actually, SSRIs are used as first line treatments for OCD.. not GABAergics. & certainly not the recreational drug GHB, which is a GABA-b agonist & has a very different mode of action than most GABAergics on the pharmaceutical market today- which modulate the GABA-a receptor via targeting certain subunits to facilitate different GABAergic effects (z-drugs like ambien target alpha-1 GABA-a subunit for example b/c its more inclined to induce sleep).



I think so many antiepileptics tend to have so many different off label uses b/c they tend to affect a wide range of receptor systems, depending on the drug. & i personally haven't heard of phenytoin "destroying all obsessions" as an off label use, but i could be wrong. AFAIK its primarily still only used as an antiepileptic.
 
Sodium valproate is Depakote right? It's partly a mood stabilizer that I almost got a sample of but passed on. Oh well, I passed on Lamictal as well.

Sodium Valproate has been helpful for this, for me in the past, if it's something non-addictive and calming/anti-obsessing you are after.
 
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