Dissociatives Chitosan and Ketamine

[mdaniel80]

I recently read a thread on reddit where a few folks were cutting their ketamine with chitosan for insuffllation. While it was intriguing, a couple dude on reddit arent enough to get me to snort shellfish. Then I found a thread here on Bluelight with a good number of folks doing the same thing but with chitosan and morphine. What's the deal here? Why would chitosan potentiate an NMDA antagonism/opioid agonist like ketamine and an opioid like morphine. Is it the mu opioid agonism and is that an MOA of chitosan? Any thoughts at all on this before I dive in nose first?

Opioids - Morphine & Chitosan for better intranasal absorption

"Morphine administered nasally to humans as a simple solution is only absorbed to a limited degree, with a bioavailability of the order of 10% compared with intravenous administration. This article describes the development of novel nasal morphine formulations based on chitosan, which, in the...

bluelight.org

 

[RUC4]

Interesting question. I’m interested to know the answer.

 

[mdaniel80]

Interesting question. I’m interested to know the answer.

So I cross-posted this to the Nootropics 2.0 group on FB and got an excellent response with a linked study. I have it all wrong, it's not about the MOA but rather the ROA. Chitosan "slows the mucociliary clearance…allowing more time for absorption" according to the pub. So update, i ordered some but accidentally got liquid form. I thought "fuck it" and put it in a nasal spray bottle (chitosan, not ketamine) and tried it. I got immediate inflammation and congestion. The price of being a lab rat. But now that I look at it, wouldn't "slowing clearance" mean congestion?

Pilot study of nasal morphine-chitosan for the relief of breakthrough pain in patients with cancer - PubMed

Breakthrough pain in patients with cancer is common, often unpredictable, and can rapidly become severe. Treatment using the oral administration of opioids is not optimal due to the slow onset of pain relief. Nasal administration of analgesics potentially offers more rapid pain relief. This...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

I recently read a thread on reddit where a few folks were cutting their ketamine with chitosan for insuffllation. While it was intriguing, a couple dude on reddit arent enough to get me to snort shellfish. Then I found a thread here on Bluelight with a good number of folks doing the same thing but with chitosan and morphine. What's the deal here? Why would chitosan potentiate an NMDA antagonism/opioid agonist like ketamine and an opioid like morphine. Is it the mu opioid agonism and is that an MOA of chitosan? Any thoughts at all on this before I dive in nose first?

Opioids - Morphine & Chitosan for better intranasal absorption

"Morphine administered nasally to humans as a simple solution is only absorbed to a limited degree, with a bioavailability of the order of 10% compared with intravenous administration. This article describes the development of novel nasal morphine formulations based on chitosan, which, in the...

bluelight.org

I've never heard of Chitosan so I did 2 second Google search and looked it up on Wikipedia ....
In about 2 more seconds of reading it on Wikipedia it says this:
"In medicine, it is useful in bandages to reduce bleeding and as an antibacterial agent; it can also be used to help deliver drugs through the skin."
If it helps deliver drugs through the skin it's reasonable to assume it probably increases absorption rate through the nose.
Just applying Occam's Razor here after literally 4 seconds of actual effort to use Google.
Sorry if I sound snippy and there could be a different mechanism of action.

 

[G_Chem]

I’m curious what were the ratios of chitosan to morphine in that study, we could be talking about minimal amounts. Too much could cause agitation. I do recall looking into this in relation to morphine years ago but abandoned the idea for one reason or another.

-GC

 

[mdaniel80]

I've never heard of Chitosan so I did 2 second Google search and looked it up on Wikipedia ....
In about 2 more seconds of reading it on Wikipedia it says this:
"In medicine, it is useful in bandages to reduce bleeding and as an antibacterial agent; it can also be used to help deliver drugs through the skin."
If it helps deliver drugs through the skin it's reasonable to assume it probably increases absorption rate through the nose.
Just applying Occam's Razor here after literally 4 seconds of actual effort to use Google.
Sorry if I sound snippy and there could be a different mechanism of action.

Read my comment/update from today though

 

[mdaniel80]

I’m curious what were the ratios of chitosan to morphine in that study, we could be talking about minimal amounts. Too much could cause agitation. I do recall looking into this in relation to morphine years ago but abandoned the idea for one reason or another.

-GC

Andoctally, too much def caused irritation, But here is your answer "Nasal morphine was administered by research staff in a standardized way using the same dose that the patient received orally for episodes of breakthrough pain. Two preparations of morphine-chitosan were supplied, 5 mg/0.1 ml and 20 mg/0.1 ml; this allowed morphine doses in the range of 5–80mg to be administered in 1–4 sprays from Pfeiffer single 0.1ml unit dosing devices (maximum of two sprays per nostril)."

Pilot Study of Nasal Morphine-Chitosan for the Relief of Breakthrough Pain in Patients With Cancer

Breakthrough pain in patients with cancer is common, often unpredictable, and can rapidly become severe. Treatment using the oral administration of opioids is not optimal due to the slow onset of pain relief. Nasal administration of analgesics potentially offers more rapid pain relief. This...

www.jpsmjournal.com

 

[G_Chem]

Andoctally, too much def caused irritation, But here is your answer "Nasal morphine was administered by research staff in a standardized way using the same dose that the patient received orally for episodes of breakthrough pain. Two preparations of morphine-chitosan were supplied, 5 mg/0.1 ml and 20 mg/0.1 ml; this allowed morphine doses in the range of 5–80mg to be administered in 1–4 sprays from Pfeiffer single 0.1ml unit dosing devices (maximum of two sprays per nostril)."

Pilot Study of Nasal Morphine-Chitosan for the Relief of Breakthrough Pain in Patients With Cancer

Breakthrough pain in patients with cancer is common, often unpredictable, and can rapidly become severe. Treatment using the oral administration of opioids is not optimal due to the slow onset of pain relief. Nasal administration of analgesics potentially offers more rapid pain relief. This...

www.jpsmjournal.com

Im not sure that gives us the ratios though. It sounds like they are just telling us the morphine concentration in solution.

I would like to majorly thank you though as I have been scratching my head for months trying to figure out the final piece of the puzzle that makes medicinal honey psychoactive despite flavonoid content still being too low to elicit such effects.

It seems not only do polysaccharides increase bioavailability but so do oligosaccharides.

Oligosaccharide promotes bioavailability of a water-soluble flavonoid glycoside, alpha G-rutin, in rats - PubMed

This study examined the effects of a nondigestible saccharide, difructose anhydride (DFA) III, and fructooligosaccharides (FOS) on the intestinal absorption and metabolism of alpha G-rutin, a quercetin glycoside in rats during a 2 week feeding period with diets containing 1% alpha G-rutin with...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Cool stuff

-GC

 

[mdaniel80]

My point and the reason I was kinda snippy is that most people who post on BL just ask someone else for a quick answer before doing even a cursory Google search to find their answer....
It's good that you eventually took the initiative to find some info yourself.

Wikipedia and "google" are most certainly NOT the first places I look. Google Scholar and Pubmed though... I also read an entire thread before throwing in prematurely with unhelpful information.

 

[G_Chem]

Alright. I’ve decided to help pursue this particular topic. I’ll be purchasing chitosan right now and will try it mixed with ketamine as well as a few other drugs. Will report back in a couple weeks when I’ve finally got the time. I’ll have something by the end of the month.

-GC

 

[mdaniel80]

Wikipedia and "google" are most certainly NOT the first places I look. Google Scholar and Pubmed though... I also read an entire thread before throwing in prematurely.

Wikipedia and "google" are most certainly NOT the first places I look. Google Scholar and Pubmed though... I also read an entire thread before throwing in prematurely.

Alright. I’ve decided to help pursue this particular topic. I’ll be purchasing chitosan right now and will try it mixed with ketamine as well as a few other drugs. Will report back in a couple weeks when I’ve finally got the time. I’ll have something by the end of the month.

-GC

make sure you get the powdered version and not liquid like an idiot (me).

 

[G_Chem]

make sure you get the powdered version and not liquid like an idiot (me).

Haha for sure, if this works well this would be huge. You know more I think on it too, snorting water solutions of anything (even just plain water) can be irritating sometimes. Im wondering if it was the water moreso than the chitosan that caused agitation.

Either way, chitosan powder is on the way!

-GC

 

[mdaniel80]

Haha for sure, if this works well this would be huge. You know more I think on it too, snorting water solutions of anything (even just plain water) can be irritating sometimes. Im wondering if it was the water moreso than the chitosan that caused agitation.

Either way, chitosan powder is on the way!

-GC

It’s hard to decipher for me. It seems ket throws me into severe sinus congestion for days after a high dose no matter what. I have an appointment next month with Dr Smith to do this thing legally and get the troches. I can’t keep snorting the shit, it’s too high a price to pay. I’m still extremely interested in your chitosan experiment though

 

[G_Chem]

It’s hard to decipher for me. It seems ket throws me into severe sinus congestion for days after a high dose no matter what. I have an appointment next month with Dr Smith to do this thing legally and get the troches. I can’t keep snorting the shit, it’s too high a price to pay. I’m still extremely interested in your chitosan experiment though

So this is why I’m looking forward to this as well. Over the past 6mos I had to convert to sublingual use of ketamine because my sinuses simply couldn’t handle it anymore. And I hardly use the stuff compared to everyone I know… My doses are never more than 15-20mg at a time, and usually use a bump on average once a month.

Like you though, any amount up there and for a week it’s hell. After the last festival of the summer (where I’ll do 3-4 bumps over a weekend) I was hacking up crap constantly.

Sublingual is ok, but is missing something that I really enjoyed snorting it. If I can reduce the amounts used or maybe the chitosan can improve sublingual BA, either or would be a good thing.

-GC

 

[mdaniel80]

So this is why I’m looking forward to this as well. Over the past 6mos I had to convert to sublingual use of ketamine because my sinuses simply couldn’t handle it anymore. And I hardly use the stuff compared to everyone I know… My doses are never more than 15-20mg at a time, and usually use a bump on average once a month.

Like you though, any amount up there and for a week it’s hell. After the last festival of the summer (where I’ll do 3-4 bumps over a weekend) I was hacking up crap constantly.

Sublingual is ok, but is missing something that I really enjoyed snorting it. If I can reduce the amounts used or maybe the chitosan can improve sublingual BA, either or would be a good thing.

-GC

I’m on your wavelength bro!

 

[G_Chem]

A couple things I found…

One snippet from an article I can’t access..

“mg of S-ketamine +0.5 μg chitosan/0.1 mL and 0.75 mg midazolam +0.5 μg chitosan/0.1 mL”

Unfortunately the dosage of Ketamine is cut off but we do see a rather average dose of midazolam can extrapolate the ketamine dosage is as well. (Can anyone access?)

What I notice is the extremely low amount of chitosan used. .5 micrograms is so low. We can assume that a milligram or two in a nasal spray bottle full of K would be plenty.

An article showing chitosan is pro-inflammatory at high enough doses.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/jbm.a.30421

“Inhaled CM (2–10 mg/kg of particles) induce dose-dependent proinflammatory effects in rat lungs..” (CM = Chitosan Microparticles)

I will use this information to form my first experiment.

-GC

 

[mdaniel80]

A couple things I found…

One snippet from an article I can’t access..

“mg of S-ketamine +0.5 μg chitosan/0.1 mL and 0.75 mg midazolam +0.5 μg chitosan/0.1 mL”

Unfortunately the dosage of Ketamine is cut off but we do see a rather average dose of midazolam can extrapolate the ketamine dosage is as well. (Can anyone access?)

What I notice is the extremely low amount of chitosan used. .5 micrograms is so low. We can assume that a milligram or two in a nasal spray bottle full of K would be plenty.

An article showing chitosan is pro-inflammatory at high enough doses.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/jbm.a.30421

“Inhaled CM (2–10 mg/kg of particles) induce dose-dependent proinflammatory effects in rat lungs..” (CM = Chitosan Microparticles)

I will use this information to form my first experiment.

-GC

anedoctally i will tell you that chitosan in high dose is extremely inflammatory

 

[DrDarkside]

A couple things I found…

One snippet from an article I can’t access..

“mg of S-ketamine +0.5 μg chitosan/0.1 mL and 0.75 mg midazolam +0.5 μg chitosan/0.1 mL”

Unfortunately the dosage of Ketamine is cut off but we do see a rather average dose of midazolam can extrapolate the ketamine dosage is as well. (Can anyone access?)

What I notice is the extremely low amount of chitosan used. .5 micrograms is so low. We can assume that a milligram or two in a nasal spray bottle full of K would be plenty.

An article showing chitosan is pro-inflammatory at high enough doses.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/jbm.a.30421

“Inhaled CM (2–10 mg/kg of particles) induce dose-dependent proinflammatory effects in rat lungs..” (CM = Chitosan Microparticles)

I will use this information to form my first experiment.

-GC

How did the experiment go?

 

[G_Chem]

How did the experiment go?

Sorry I never responded cuz OP left but I honestly didn’t notice any difference worth the effort. Only one experiment was conducted.

It can be hard to tell though at the dosages I use. Someone who likes to hole would probably have a better time discerning any increase in BA.

-GC

 

[G_Chem]

How did the experiment go?

I should also add the experiment was conducted between two people, neither of us noticed any difference.

-GC