Can't feel benzos after long term phenobarbital use

[Anxious.Individual]

x10 2mg Rivotrils (clonazepam) came in to my possession the other day. I haven't used benzos since Dec 2015, so I would expect that my tolerance to benzos has reset. I tapered down from 200mg phenobarbital a day within 2 months due to liver related issues. Life has been a nightmare ever since. I have started taking 500mg of Phenibut a day recently, which has improved my mood significantly, and reduced some of the neuropathic pain. However today I woke up with a terrible migrane, lying in my bed thinking if life is still worth living. Then I remembered about the clonazepam and immediately decided to take 4mg. Back in my benz days I would usually start feeling even 2mgs of clonaz within 20 mins. I felt nothing after waiting for an hour, then I took 4mg more, a total of 8mg, which seemed to relieve my migraine, but I still felt not a single relaxing/sedative effect. This left me worried about my tolerance, and I am well aware that barbiturates and benzos have cross-tolerance, but it has been 3 months since I tapered off phenobarb, so why cant I feel the clonaz? I have 12mg left which I will try taking tomorrow.

 

[pally pete]

x10 2mg Rivotrils (clonazepam) came in to my possession the other day. I haven't used benzos since Dec 2015, so I would expect that my tolerance to benzos has reset. I tapered down from 200mg phenobarbital a day within 2 months due to liver related issues. Life has been a nightmare ever since. I have started taking 500mg of Phenibut a day recently, which has improved my mood significantly, and reduced some of the neuropathic pain. However today I woke up with a terrible migrane, lying in my bed thinking if life is still worth living. Then I remembered about the clonazepam and immediately decided to take 4mg. Back in my benz days I would usually start feeling even 2mgs of clonaz within 20 mins. I felt nothing after waiting for an hour, then I took 4mg more, a total of 8mg, which seemed to relieve my migraine, but I still felt not a single relaxing/sedative effect. This left me worried about my tolerance, and I am well aware that barbiturates and benzos have cross-tolerance, but it has been 3 months since I tapered off phenobarb, so why cant I feel the clonaz? I have 12mg left which I will try taking tomorrow.

I never found Clonazepam to be at all sedating. Even at doses in the range of 20 - 40 mgs. Where as, I found Phenobarbital to be very sedating at doses as low as 200 - 400 mgs.

If you want sedation I'd look for a different Benzo.. Maybe Diazepam, Flurazepam, Temazepam or Flunitrazepam. If you live in a country where RC Benzos are not banned then Clonazolam or Flubromazepam should do the trick.

 

[Anxious.Individual]

I never found Clonazepam to be at all sedating. Even at doses in the range of 20 - 40 mgs. Where as, I found Phenobarbital to be very sedating at doses as low as 200 - 400 mgs.

If you want sedation I'd look for a different Benzo.. Maybe Diazepam, Flurazepam, Temazepam or Flunitrazepam. If you live in a country where RC Benzos are not banned then Clonazolam or Flubromazepam should do the trick.

20-40mg? You must have quite a tolerance, but yes, I can agree, I also never found clonaz sedating, but it did produce some nice mental/physical relaxation for me before. I used to also really enjoy large doses of Diazepam (200-300mg), and those were some of the best benzo experiences.

 

[Keif' Richards]

Benzodiazepine addiction, tolerance and dependence are harder to guage and understand than say, a dependence upon Opioids. What I mean by this is that dependence and withdrawal from Benzodiazepines, unlike Opioids, doesn't seem to follow a linear pattern. As those who have experienced sedative/hypnotic withdrawal in the past can attest to, thes symptoms of withdrawal can wax and wane. Sometimes it seems like you are greatly improved and everything is lovely, only to have your symptoms return with a vengeance later on. It can be a real mind-fuck and contributes greatly to the anxiety I've experienced during the withdrawal phase.

Bear in mind, I've never had a truly long-term dependence upon Alcohol or Benzodiazepines. The most I've ever had to tackle was a 9 month, quart/fifth of liquor per day habit. A pretty sizeable addiction, but it can get much, much worse.

Getting to my point, Phenobarbital (Luminol) has the potential for an up to 120 hour half-life. It's a very long-lasting drug, in a class of drugs which are known for long, painful and non-linear withdrawal phases. Those dependent upon Benzodiazepines, a similar class of sedative/hypnotics, will tell you the the time needed to fully recover from a severe dependency can be months or even years.

This gives some explanation as to why your tolerance might not be completely reset, but I guess I'm still surprised that such a high dose of Clonazepam (Klonopin, Rivotril) would have such little effect on you. When you say "no effect" do you mean that literally, or do you mean that the effects just aren't as pronounced as you would expect?

 

[theGirlWithBlueHair]

It's 120 hour half-life does not mean that it's effects last for 120, though. It's effects last only 6 - 8, at the most 12 hours.

http://reference.medscape.com/drug/luminal-phenobarbital-343017

 

[belligerent drunk]

^ diazepam (and similar benzodiazepines) follow similar kinetics. The half-life is supposed to be 100-200 hours, but in reality effects last only about 10 hours, because the drug gets distributed throughout the fat tissue very quickly (so that its elimination doesn't follow first-order kinetics, like usual drugs, for which the concept of half-life works - only processes following first-order kinetics can be described with a half-life that is constant no matter the concentration of the substance)

 

[Keif' Richards]

It's 120 hour half-life does not mean that it's effects last for 120, though. It's effects last only 6 - 8, at the most 12 hours.

http://reference.medscape.com/drug/luminal-phenobarbital-343017

No, I agree with you. Perceivable effects are much shorter, I never implied otherwise. I just assume that being that there is still Phenobarbital in the body i could possibly have some residual action on tolerance. It's just an idea and I don't know if that's how things work or not.

Also, I've had Phenobarbital myself in the past for partial onset seizures and yes, acutely, Phenobarbital is only going to last no more than 10-12 hours, but it has a stacking effect similar to many other very long-acting drugs like Methadone for instance, in that as you take it everyday, usually multiple times, the drug will accumulate. In my experience, taking Phenobarbital consistently for a period of a few weeks, led to noticeable effects persisting for over 48 hours including amnesia and slurred speech (reported by people around me).

So there's a significant difference between acute and chronic dosing.

 

[theGirlWithBlueHair]

I never said you were implying otherwise lol ) I was just making sure to toss this fact out there for readers.

You are right, and phenobaribtal can be taken once a day too for some conditions.

 

[Anxious.Individual]

I think pheno's duration of action is very dose-dependent. I have taken 600mg at once before and it felt like I was very drunk and frequently blacking out for the whole day (full 24h), and I was still feeling very strong effects the next day, it only faded away towards the evening. While 100mg-200mg only lasts me for about 8-10h.