Can I survive in San Francisco?

[TheAppleCore]

I'm considering moving to San Francisco, where my big sister and brother-in-law live. I'm just a little apprehensive about the high cost of living.

I'm a college dropout with no degree, and no particularly advanced skills, in my opinion. My friends and family all keep reassuring me that I'll be fine. You're great with computers! There's a huge job market for people like you up in Silicon Valley! Well, I'm not so sure about that. I spent some of my free time as a teenager fooling around with a few basic programming languages, which I've probably almost completely forgotten how to use at this point. I slapped together a couple amateurish websites. That's basically the extent of my tech genius. The only "job" I've ever had was doing random odds and ends for my Dad's business, for minimum wage.

I do, however, consider myself a generally smart, capable, and motivated person. Can I get a job that will pay me enough to have a reasonable quality of life in SF on that merit alone? I want to be practical.

The other option I'm considering is moving in with my aunt in Iowa City (a small midwestern college town), which would be far more economical. The reason I'm attracted to San Francisco is that I anticipate being able to meet like-minded young peeps and make friends more easily there.



Sigh... I'm probably just overthinking things.

 

[thujone]

this is a good blog i've been reading about the dark nature of the great SF/SV experience. The price of housing there is definitely insane, renting a 1-bdrm is more than twice as expensive in SF as it is even in cities that are considered to be in a RE bubble right now. I've never been myself so I can't say either way, but as a software guy I've talked to people who have and the overall consensus seems to be that SF is a good place to go early in your career when you can afford to trade a few years of your health and sanity to level-up faster and have a better bargaining position later. SF seems like the kind of environment in which only two types of people exist: 1) people who will rise to the top and become VC-backed startup founders and 2) the remaining 99% who put in 80-hour weeks hoping to break out from the shackles of this exploitative system and become a founder (who is then required to exploit the 99%)

 

[TheAppleCore]

Thanks for your thoughts, thujone. I'll be sure to check out the blog.

 

[alasdairm]

cost of a 1 bedroom in the city (i am thinking, e.g., the mission) is about $3000pm. work out how much you'll need to earn to afford to pay that kind of rent. how do you plan to job hunt?

i lived in sf for 10 years, including during the first tech bubble (1999 - 2003). crazy, awesome time. there's no city like it.

alasdair

 

[TheAppleCore]

cost of a 1 bedroom in the city (i am thinking, e.g., the mission) is about $3000pm. work out how much you'll need to earn to afford to pay that kind of rent.

A few months ago I found an online cost-of-living calculator, and I think it told me I should be pulling a salary the 50-60k range to rent a 1 bedroom in a decent area of SF.

how do you plan to job hunt?

Scour sites like linkedin, make friends and network, I guess. I just don't know if it's realistic to expect that to work for somebody in my situation, or if I really need a specialized education and degree before attempting that.

 

[alasdairm]

A few months ago I found an online cost-of-living calculator, and I think it told me I should be pulling a salary the 50-60k range to rent a 1 bedroom in a decent area of SF.

not a chance. if you earn $60k gross, you'll expect to take home about $3500pm. look on craigslist at rent prices...

what's your definition of "a decent area of sf"?

alasdair

 

[herbavore]

Half of my "roots" are Iowan so I have a soft spot for the state boring as it may sound to all my provincial never-been-out-of-California friends that love to put down the midwest. Iowa City has the Iowa Writer's Workshop! Greg Brown! People who think it is perfectly fine to have popcorn for dinner every Sunday night. It is a much more diverse state than people imagine as well. (Remember when all the farms were going under and Iowa was losing population? They invited Mexican, Hmong and other immigrants to populate their state! OK, so I don't live there even though I could move from here and perhaps just maybe actually RETIRE due to the lower cost of living. But there is this big thing called the ocean that I can never move away from.

My friends that live in SF are all older and moved there in the 70's--but they mostly still rent. They find amazing deals and hang on for dear life. My cousin and her banker boyfriend just moved there (In the Richmond) and got a place with parking, 2 bedrooms for 3K so it isn't quite as bad as some of the prices make it seem. My friends' kids also manage and they are food delivery people or teachers, etc. For me, it's a trade-off because I love the environment where I live (not SF but south of there and just about as expensive) so I put up with all the financial drawbacks. Hey, check out Santa Cruz--we pride ourselves on working as little as possible. JK but with a grain of truth.

 

[TheAppleCore]

what's your definition of "a decent area of sf"?

Probably one where I can feel reasonably safe as a lone pedestrian, and one where I have basic shopping within walking distance.

Half of my "roots" are Iowan so I have a soft spot for the state boring as it may sound to all my provincial never-been-out-of-California friends that love to put down the midwest. Iowa City has the Iowa Writer's Workshop! Greg Brown! People who think it is perfectly fine to have popcorn for dinner every Sunday night. It is a much more diverse state than people imagine as well. (Remember when all the farms were going under and Iowa was losing population? They invited Mexican, Hmong and other immigrants to populate their state! OK, so I don't live there even though I could move from here and perhaps just maybe actually RETIRE due to the lower cost of living. But there is this big thing called the ocean that I can never move away from.

My friends that live in SF are all older and moved there in the 70's--but they mostly still rent. They find amazing deals and hang on for dear life. My cousin and her banker boyfriend just moved there (In the Richmond) and got a place with parking, 2 bedrooms for 3K so it isn't quite as bad as some of the prices make it seem. My friends' kids also manage and they are food delivery people or teachers, etc. For me, it's a trade-off because I love the environment where I live (not SF but south of there and just about as expensive) so I put up with all the financial drawbacks. Hey, check out Santa Cruz--we pride ourselves on working as little as possible. JK but with a grain of truth.

Nice to see another Bluelighter with Iowan roots. Your friends' kids that work as food delivery people or teachers -- I'm assuming they still live with their parents?

 

[herbavore]

^No, I should have specified that--that was the reason I brought them up--they do in fact find ways to live in a city they love. Of course, they grew up there which makes it easier to find places (word of mouth rentals, etc). Could your sister and her husband put you up while you look for work and living arrangements?

 

[alasdairm]

Probably one where I can feel reasonably safe as a lone pedestrian...

well, for me, that's most of the city except the tenderloin.

...and one where I have basic shopping within walking distance.

well, that probably puts you in the outer richmond or sunset but you'll have to pick carefully so you're not 18 blocks from a 'convenience' store.

you might land a 1br in the outer sunset (i.e west of 19th and probably west of sunset) for ~$2000pm. i lived in the mission and the upper haight in my time in san franciso. both excellent places to live with so much going on. today? crazy!

have you done any research on neighborhoods and rents?

alasdair

 

[llama112]

You don't have a degree or a diploma. Chances are you won't be able to get a job making 50k there. I can't find a computer job anywhere even though I know various languages and I've been programming since I was 12 (I'm 24 now). I have a diploma in some office program which is basically useless. I am now going back to school to get my diploma so I can actually get a job.
I know the job market is different in Canada and the US. SF does have tons of tech programs. But they have tons of graduates from computer programs that will get the job before you.
My partner has a diploma (not degree) in computer programming. While he was looking for jobs, he applied for jobs that were 60k - 70k starting salary. No calls back, they all wanted degrees. Because employees prefer university degrees over college diplomas. My partner did get lucky as he had a co-op during his schooling that gave him a job pretty close to that, but that was because he a) had the diploma and b) proved himself to them while working there over the summer AND on contract during the school year. Not everyone is lucky like that.
And San Francisco is even more expensive than where I live (uhhh it's probably more expensive than anywhere in Canada.... definitely more than Toronto/Montreal, unsure about Vancouver). It's going to be very tough without a good degree or diploma.
That being said, I would LOVE to move to San Francisco. It's amazing. We may consider it once my partner finishes his degree that he is working on part time so he has a higher level of education and can afford it.

 

[Bomboclat]

San Francisco resident of 4ish years here. Let me break this one down.

I'm considering moving to San Francisco, where my big sister and brother-in-law live. I'm just a little apprehensive about the high cost of living.

As you should be, its already quite high and projected to go up before it'll go down (which won't be any time soon).

I'm a college dropout with no degree, and no particularly advanced skills, in my opinion. My friends and family all keep reassuring me that I'll be fine. You're great with computers! There's a huge job market for people like you up in Silicon Valley! Well, I'm not so sure about that. I spent some of my free time as a teenager fooling around with a few basic programming languages, which I've probably almost completely forgotten how to use at this point. I slapped together a couple amateurish websites. That's basically the extent of my tech genius. The only "job" I've ever had was doing random odds and ends for my Dad's business, for minimum wage.

You need experience. This is key to finding a job not only here in SF, but around the country. Most companies that will pay you a livable wage won't take the time to train you further than anything site specific. This is especially true for the tech industry and SF as a whole. There are few entry level positions, and when they arise they're more often than not going to go to immigrants who the company can pay less to hire.

Furthermore, the amount of people in the bay area with at least a bachelors degree outweighs most of the nation (someone check me on that but I know we have the highest amount of BA degrees per capita in any metro area within the US). So competition is high. Very high. Ive seen people with masters degrees end up having to move home because they couldn't get into the job they wanted without experience or connections.

I do, however, consider myself a generally smart, capable, and motivated person. Can I get a job that will pay me enough to have a reasonable quality of life in SF on that merit alone? I want to be practical.

That's awesome, and I'm sure that can take you many places, but if you're thinking that you can end up in SF without anything other than a can-do attitude, you'll last about two months living in a shared room in one of the outer neighborhoods or downtown before you run out of money and options.

The other option I'm considering is moving in with my aunt in Iowa City (a small midwestern college town), which would be far more economical. The reason I'm attracted to San Francisco is that I anticipate being able to meet like-minded young peeps and make friends more easily there.



Sigh... I'm probably just overthinking things.

You're not over thinking things, you're being very rational and levelheaded. Making a big move is a decision worth thinking long and hard about, as it'll be time and money you will never get back.

Now I'm not saying you will never survive in SF and you shouldn't move here. I can't personally say that about you, but from experience and from watching how this city operates over the past few years, Ive come to understand what it takes to make it in a city that has such high amounts of inequalities and such little room.

Come visit SF for a bit, its an amazing city, and check it out for yourself. Talk to people, see what they have to say. Check out job listings and apartment listings, email around and ask what it takes for the people you're emailing to stay afloat.

Ive seen more people move out of SF since I've moved here than new people who have just moved in. (Granted I'm somewhat of a hermit, but still).

TLDR: If you try to move to SF without any marketable skills that outweigh your competition's, or you don't come from high means, you won't last longer than a few months.

 

[TheAppleCore]

I really appreciate all the feedback, guys! Thank you so much. It is helping me feel more confident in my decision to wait until I have a job offer, or at least a degree, before jumping into such a competitive and expensive city.

have you done any research on neighborhoods and rents?

Honestly, not a whole lot. I wanted to get a feel for whether it was even worth looking into, I guess.

 

[socko]

The people who made San Francisco interesting were driven out by gentrification decades ago. The city is now plagued by yuppies, Glassholes, and dickheads who work at places like twatter. They do nothing but drive up rent. Other than that, it's a beautiful city.

 

[Bomboclat]

The people who made San Francisco interesting were driven out by gentrification decades ago. The city is now plagued by yuppies, Glassholes, and dickheads who work at places like twatter. They do nothing but drive up rent. Other than that, it's a beautiful city.

That's a lot of SF, ya, but its not everyone.
Thats like going to Paris and saying all the cool people were driven out by the Gypsies cause all I did was hang on the seine.

 

[malakaix]

Or maybe..

A Google employee lives in a truck in the company's parking lot and saves 90% of his income.

When 23-year-old Brandon S. headed from Massachusetts to the Bay Area in mid-May to start work, he opted out of settling into an overpriced San Francisco apartment.

Instead, he moved into a 128-square-foot truck.

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/google-employee-lives-in-truck-in-parking-lot-2015-10#/#-1

 

[Bagseed]

3000 USD for a one bedroom? crazy crazy...

 

[Bomboclat]

3000 USD for a one bedroom if you want to live in a nice and trendy part of town, or you just don't know how to look for an apartment.
My apartment is a 1br in a decent part of town, centrally located with good public transit and a lot of amenities, but for $1000 less than the quote you listed above, Bagseed.

While yes, the prices have gone up (average price for a 1br in my neighborhood is now $2500/mo), thats not the case for all neighborhoods.
Outer Sunset for a 1br thats an inlaw unit can be anywhere from 1800-2400 (though for an inlaw at the beach I wouldn't pay more than $1900).

But most people don't live alone in SF. At least most newcomers. I have friends who pay as little as $700 for a room in a 2br apartment, so its doable but not without a good and stable source of income and a bit of finesse.

SF is doable, it just depends on your income and standard of living.

 

[Bagseed]

yeah I am aware that you can find better deals, but for someone from europe, this is still extremely unbelieveable... in Vienna you can get a nice 1br for less than 500EUR, I share a flat with some people and pay 260EUR and have 18sqm for my own (flat is 200sqm in total)...

I know this is very offtopic, but I just can't comprehend how rent can go up that high.

 

[Bomboclat]

Limited space and large demand.
SF is a 7x7x7mi space and building code limitations/NIMBY's have blockaded any sort of building up within the city. Theres a very limited amount of space and too many people to live here.

What's worse is that the large demand accompanied by high amounts of wealth from the tech industry has created a huge housing bubble that inflates prices all over the bay area, while kicking out locals and long term residents in favor of the new money.

The bay is the best place in CA, but goddamn is it being run by the tech industry.