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Can I Recover Without a God?

`bLow?

`bLow?

Bluelighter
Joined
Dec 16, 2005
Messages
1,984
I've been asking people at my local meetings but haven't been able to find a satisfactory answer. I've read the big book and found some guidance there but I was wondering if someone here could maybe help me.

I do not believe in a God. I just don't. And I don't know if it's an ego thing, if it's because I think I'm so intelligent because I read Nietzsche and Sartre and Camus. But I just can't accept that there is a magical, benevolent being. They say it is an issue of faith, and as much as I'd like to, I just cannot bring myself to believe. If anything I lean towards Buddhism, in being present in the moment, but as far as this life being samsara and cyclic, I'm not sure I can swallow that either. Eternal recurrence, the concept Nietzsche postulated later in life is about as far as I can get to a theory of salvation.

I desperately do not want to drink anymore. I am willing to do anything, but I think that includes being honest with people instead of just pretending that I believe in God.

Please help.
 
Of course you can. God is a representation of a higher power. A higher power doesn't have to be a religious entity. A higher power is anything that is greater than yourself that you have absolutely no control over. It's anything you want to look to for guidance, something that doesn't break or bend to your will.

If you are going to meetings I am assuming you are struggling with the 12 steps and the entire AA program as a whole being on the religious side. It can be confusing and put off a lot of newcomers for that fact. But the 12 steps don't have to be taken literally and can be symbolic in many ways, and that is why they work for so many people. You need to find a way to identify yourself with them and to understand them with great meaning in your life.

I liked using the ocean as an abstract higher power. It signifies strength and power. Try standing in it's waves waist deep and tell it that it can't move you.

I also liked "love" as a higher power as well. It is such a strange strong unexplainable act. Why will people go through so much both physical and mental pain in the name of love. It is a very strong "thing".
 
One of the reasons why I have never considered things like AA is because of the God aspect. I used to believe in God in the way that the mainstream describe it, but now I don't. I simply don't believe that God is an outside force pulling the strings. God is outside and inside you, it is you, and you are it. You can replace "God" with the Universe, the Divine, Nature, the Source, Quantum Strings, Emptiness, whatever you want. I also wholy detest the idea that God has to "save" me. It is positively Christian and it implies original sin. I prefer to stick with the idea that I am already perfect because I am already with God. There is no real separation. There is only intention and manifestation - what do you want to change, and what can you change?

My rant aside... the point of including God in these programs is that you need to get your problems outside of you. You have to place your pain, suffering, and reliance into something else so that the pressure is taken off of you. That's what faith is. Whether you look at it in a divine/spiritual way, or a neurobiological way, externalization makes it so that the weight of your problems do not crush you, and in relation, that you have a constant help or friend that is working to help you better yourself.

If you can't work with the concept of God then choose another philosophy. Choose the Daoist "Way", choose Buddhist "Emptiness" (which is based on dissolution of ego, and impermanence), choose the Universe (what is meant to be will be; everything happens for a reason), choose Love (always reach for the higher virtue), etc.

You have options.
 
^ You absolutely do not have to believe in a god, particularly a "magical, benevolent (or punishing) being to believe in something greater than yourself. You sound a lot like me in your beliefs, or lack thereof.:) One of the most helpful aspects of Buddhism, and that whole concept of being in the present moment is the way it connects us to the bigger picture. We are aware of our bodies, our minds, and all of our thoughts and emotions, but paradoxically this connects us to the timelessness of existence. Whether you call this mysterious life force the divine or simply the miracle that we are swirling through, it is awe inspiring and grounding at the same time.

When I was going to al-anon meetings, I visualized my higher or future self as the "higher power". The act of saying that you cannot do it alone pisses a lot of people off because it seems to be saying that you are powerless. In fact the meaning is that you are powerless to do this without support. IMO that support does not even have to come from AA--that is just the most available and therefore most practical form of a community that does not judge you, that has empathy for what you are going through and offers real and very practical life advice for getting free of addiction and staying free.

My higher or future self believed in my strength when I could not. She was empathetic when I was self loathing and she was clear-eyed and honest when I was throwing out rationalization after rationalization. All I did was put my faith in her/me. This was the helpful concept that I was able to use. I have heard of many others, like simply understanding that the higher power is the room full of people that are there to support each other. (I love that one because that is ultimately the strength of the program.) I am sure that AA meetings vary from State to State and country to country and you may live in a particularly religious environment which could be hard; still, it is possible to glean so much from these meetings and the philosophy without agreeing with everything. Stick to your beliefs but don't let them hold you back from getting the help and community you need. Only you can ultimately decide whether the community of AA where you are is for you or not but I would not let the conventional religious-sounding language get too much in the way.

The bottom line for me as a believer in a random universe without any divine plan is that this life is a fucking miracle and we have such a short time here to participate. Opening myself to that fact is transcendent enough for me. I do not begrudge anyone their beliefs; we all see this mystery through our own unique prism. Your desire to be honest with people is good and if you cannot feel comfortable being accepted for your particular view of things then you will not be fully supported. But in my experience, there are many, many people that benefit from meetings that believe similarly to you.

Good luck. You can and will stop drinking because that is your goal. Be gentle with yourself as you forge that delicate path, balance that with a healthy dose of introspection and honesty with yourself and you will define your life the way you want it to be. Much love and respect to you.<3<3<3
 
Yes, of course. I don't believe in God or religion, but I believe in Destiny/fate. I realized it wasn't my destiny to be an opiate addict, realized i was better than that (may have been an ego thing that got me off), and I quit. By myself, alone, with no help at all, no one to lean on for support and no medications. That reinforced my ego even more, and made me much more confident in myself, realizing that if i want anything done in this world I have to rely solely on myself.
 
Well for a start it's pretty unlikely you'll ever manage to bring yourself to believing in a god or higher power as such. I've never believed in that, I never will, I have nothing against those who do it's just not what I believe in. To be quite honest I've actually become extremely nihilist, but anyway that's off-topic. The point is I'm absolutely convinced it's possible to recover without believing in a god, because I've seen people do it. Although I'm having a lot of trouble recovering myself, what I do is just concentrate on the one thing I'm passionate about despite drugs (even though I had to fight to keep the interest), which is writing. Every day I force myself to write. At first it was only a little bit, like a few lines a day, but now it's a few pages a day, and I do it even if I don't want to, I just make myself do it and it's a sort of purging of emotions - it really, really helps. I mentioned writing because that's what I love, but it could be anything really, anything you used to have an interest for. My motivation to keep going, my "higher power" if you will is the idea that one day I'll be recognized for what I've written. This will quite probably never happen, but the idea alone is enough for me to continue. I hope you can find something like this.
P.S. You also obviously have great literary taste. Sartre makes me proud to be French. Focus on that ;)
 
The slight familiarity I have with Nietzsche and Sartre and Camus, is that they are all hypocrites.

Same thing with Sir Francis Bacon, and Jesus Christ, there is someone else I am thinking of but should not say his name...What we have come to know as Religion, Christianity and Catholicism etc., is much different then these folk.

How?

They do not lie, the "church" and mainstream religion, as others have pointed out, is a lie, and the source for most of the worlds most awful tragedies and injustices.

I am going to say his name now, Alister Crowley, he tried very hard at his living expense to point out the lies from the riddles; most people turned what he said into a reason to cause pain. But, to no where near the extent that our belief in others insight, and values of the Bible has caused the history of the freaking world.

The steps of AA work, because they have a source which is actually very old tried and true. If one really put forth all their effort into each of those 12 steps, they would find god, that inner reliance, that 3rd persons perspective which does exist with in you, and is much wiser then you.

What does inter act with me/myself is much the same as you, but unique to I.
What I need is rarely what you want to have amongst yourself.
I am always capital for all else is a reduction of,
chose wisely what you allow yourself
to reduce to.

<3
 
One can do anything that one can do with a god, without one. Some may find it easier to believe, others may consider it a crutch. None of us can answer your question for you.
 
OP, do you attend AA or NA?

I know for me, before and after rehab, I found AA to be much more backwards and ideological than NA. The AA big book is an exact copy of the text from 1939 whereas the NA text was last updated 10 years ago.

AA is generally considered to be advocating a "christian" faith in a higher power, whereas NA texts always advocate the inclusion of all faiths (and non-religious).

AA texts use the word "god" whereas NA texts use the term "higher power" in its place.

I guess my overall point is that while the 12 steps are generally word for word, there is a vast difference in the interpretation of what type of beliefs (or lack thereof) are a prerequisite for success. Spirituality is not the same as faith. I don't believe in some benevolent almighty being but I do however accept that something greater than myself exists in this world. That was the key to beginning the 12 step process. Once you open your heart and mind to spirituality you might find that it will organically grow and develop and change according to YOU and not some indoctrination into a cult of belief.

Give it a chance, try different types of meetings (and vastly different type members) and you might find a place of belonging. I know I sure did.
 
I believe in God, and the light of God, which exists in us each. That light can not be shown to you or anyone else, and once lit there is no want or need of external direction to be given, for you then realize how it all exists with in you.

As Steven Hawkins tried to show, 'the universe is in a nut shell'. And what so many try and say is, that, it is all in your head, BUT this is not such a bad thing after all, is it??
 
^ You are the universe. Trying to say that it's the universe + 1 (me) doesn't make sense. Hawkins tries to artificially separate the two and imply objectivity of an existant universe, but his reasoning is specious. Neurobiology demonstrates that all of the raw sensory stimuli of the universe enter your brain, forming a rough facsimile of the environment, which is then projected by the brain into itself, and experienced. Because every brain has its own biases and subjective filters, it means that no two people experience "the universe" the same. The universe, by this definition, comes from you, and not from outside of you.

You can learn more about this by learning about project Blue Brain, which is summarized in this TED talk:
http://www.ted.com/talks/henry_markram_supercomputing_the_brain_s_secrets.html

Hawkins wants us to believe that the universe is "out there" and "I am in here", but there is no "I" in here to speak of. "I" and selfhood are mythological projections. It's all the universe doing itself, which means every person's perception, howevering differing from the next, is also the universe. It's why I can agree with a staunch atheist that there is no God, and simultaneously agree with a Christian that God governs everything. The two are not mutually exclusive, since they are both governed by one universe.

Sorry, I know I've diverged from the OP but this topic fascinates me intensely.
 
You don't need god for anything. Believe in YOURSELF, that you want to recover, you can recover, you WILL recover. That's all you need.
 
Of course you fucking can!

'For the firsttime in man’s entire history, a simple way has been proving itself in the lives of many addicts. It is available to us all. This is a simple spiritual—not religious—program, known as Narcotics Anonymous.'

I'm 30 days clean through attending NA, I'm an agnostic.
 
`bLow? said:
I've been asking people at my local meetings but haven't been able to find a satisfactory answer. I've read the big book and found some guidance there but I was wondering if someone here could maybe help me.

I do not believe in a God. I just don't. And I don't know if it's an ego thing, if it's because I think I'm so intelligent because I read Nietzsche and Sartre and Camus. But I just can't accept that there is a magical, benevolent being. They say it is an issue of faith, and as much as I'd like to, I just cannot bring myself to believe. If anything I lean towards Buddhism, in being present in the moment, but as far as this life being samsara and cyclic, I'm not sure I can swallow that either. Eternal recurrence, the concept Nietzsche postulated later in life is about as far as I can get to a theory of salvation.

I desperately do not want to drink anymore. I am willing to do anything, but I think that includes being honest with people instead of just pretending that I believe in God.

Please help.
Click to expand...

Yes. For me, my Higher Power is the group conscience, or the whole of the members of the group and the wisdom and experience it provides. This includes the newcomer down to the member with twenty years. Everybody brings something to the spirit of the group conscience. I've turned myself over to the group conscience and its strength, experience, and hope.

I hope this helps. Try keeping it simple.
 
You absolutely can. I did. In the interest of honesty, I do very much hope that there is a Creator, and that heaven/hell do exist. I fervently, desperately, hope that I will be reunited with the people/animals that have passed on.

I hope...
 
I think the point of submission is to drive home the idea that you can't control the addiction, at least not in your current state. Ultimately I think people who do quit in the long term are *not* really powerless, but if they think of themselves as powerful then the power vanishes. If it were a cartoon, Wile E. Coyote would look down, see that he was in fact on solid ground, and then promptly fall off a cliff (as opposed to the normal, existential fall-when-you-see-you're-in-thin-air).
 
rocketqueen said:
You absolutely can. I did. In the interest of honesty, I do very much hope that there is a Creator, and that heaven/hell do exist. I fervently, desperately, hope that I will be reunited with the people/animals that have passed on.

I hope...
Click to expand...

Very well said, I totally agree with you...it sure seems like it would be a waste of time if there wasn't something else out there, but who knows..Wishful thinking.



I have always wondered this question myself..im not in or don't plan on going to 12 steps but I was always just kind of curious.
 
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omen_owen mk2 said:
Of course you fucking can!

'For the firsttime in man’s entire history, a simple way has been proving itself in the lives of many addicts. It is available to us all. This is a simple spiritual—not religious—program, known as Narcotics Anonymous.'

I'm 30 days clean through attending NA, I'm an agnostic.
Click to expand...

Well, that would be the point of the 12 steps, to reach the 13th where a creative source is recognized but not an entity; personally I find it difficult and beside the point spend much time trying to conceptualize his/her focal point of existence. To be agnostic is just that though, and much the same as Gnostic, or Gnosis, often gnostic with a lower-case 'g' if not thought of as 'divine inspiration' but rather a stream-of-thought or collective-consciousness while writing or practicing/performing a type of art or theory.


"GNOSTICISM IS THE TEACHING based on Gnosis, the knowledge of transcendence arrived at by way of interior, intuitive means. Although Gnosticism thus rests on personal religious experience, it is a mistake to assume all such experience results in Gnostic recognitions. It is nearer the truth to say that Gnosticism expresses a specific religious experience, an experience that does not lend itself to the language of theology or philosophy, but which is instead closely affinitized to, and expresses itself through, the medium of myth. Indeed, one finds that most Gnostic scriptures take the forms of myths. The term “myth” should not here be taken to mean “stories that are not true”, but rather, that the truths embodied in these myths are of a different order from the dogmas of theology or the statements of philosophy."
http://www.gnosis.org/gnintro.htm


Yes to be sober and explore yourself and your surroundings full potential is a perpetually inspiring thing, not something to miss out on in life.
 
Finding my own higher power has worked for me. I'm still in early recovery though. I try to go to NA meetings at least once a week combined with a 3-day outpatient group. I also went to an inpatient rehab for 26 days. Trying to come off heroin is hard enough WITH suboxone.... Being on suboxone has definitely helped me in the past. But that's not enough for me, I need some kind of program that I can work with. NA is all about finding a higher power of your understanding... It's worked for millions of people. There's gotta be something to it. It doesn't have to be Jesus or Allah or whatever, you can have any kind of higher power, it can even be the people in the rooms @ an NA meeting. Check it out with an open mind. Hope recovery works out for you.
 
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