Miscellaneous Bodyweight and dosing psychedelics?

[moonyham]

So I've always wondered.. Does dosing for acid, shrooms, dmt and so on not really matter for how large or small a person is? I've never seen any kg per dosage for anything except Ketamine.

 

[AussieJoe]

Interesting question ...you give say 200ug to person 1 body weight 65 kg person 2 110 kg or heavier...does person 1 have a more intense experience than person 2.
Im thinking no because both have same receptors in brain both take same dose ...how does body weight affect this...if it does at all.

 

[PsychedelicSummer]

Makes no difference.

 

[moonyham]

Makes no difference.

What if one had a bigger brain? Does not even brain mass come into play?

 

[ItsAFunThing]

When I was fat I got floored by 200 mcg of acid. Now I'm fit and still get floored by a 200 mcg funny paper. I read MDMA is weight dependent but we always just do 120+60 and everybody had a good time, so I doubt that too.

 

[Vastness]

What the hell are some of you saying, drugs don't just magically travel to the brain alone and hole up there, they are diffused throughout the body. Of course it makes a difference.

It's just that the difference, with many drugs, is typically not significant enough for anyone to bother thinking about it. Weight calibrated dosages like mg/kg type measurements are used frequently in scientific literature and studies, specifically, when controlling as many variables as possible is important to get the most accurate result. However for convenience of the logistics of manufacturing and prescribing it's currently far easier just to settle on agreed upon dosages and increments, usually round numbers, multiples of 10, stuff like that, such as vyvanse / lisdexamphetamine which I believe has manufactured doses from 20mg to 70mg in 10mg increments, rather than calculating the exact optimal dosage to sub-milligram accuracy and manufacturing prescriptions for specific patients with specific doses... it would just be chaos. Equally, people are affected by drugs differently, to a greater or lesser extent, depending on other factors unrelated to their weight, so controlling for their weight would still not lead to a completely uniform response if everyone took drugs according to their bodyweight.

Considering that even the vast resources available to pharmaceutical industries don't do this - even if there was decided to be some advantage - consider the issues this would cause with clandestinely manufactured drugs and friends of different weight sharing a bag of cocaine or something, do you really think anyone is going to agree that the fat one should get a larger proportion of the total quantity, and it should be calculated by the relative sizes of everyone involved? No one is going to do this.

That said - there ARE many drugs where (more responsible) drug users DO take bodyweight into account. I'm sure I've seen it and heard it discussed pretty often that, for example, a relatively slight woman might take like half a pill compared to some hench or maybe just slightly obese dude who needs to take at least 2.

And what about alcohol? You're saying you've never heard of anyone moderating their alcohol intake based somewhat on their weight? It might not be explicitly discussed that often but that's just because most people realise that it is obvious. Someone who weighs 50kg is gonna get a lot drunker on the same amount of alcohol compared to someone who weighs 200kg.

Psychedelics are a wildcard because they are such profoundly altering substances that a lot of the time people don't even know how fucked up they're getting and frustratingly assume they have a lot more self awareness about their own state of mind than they actually do, but the same applies to a 300mcg of acid in the example I just gave with the 50kg vs the 200kg person. It's just that in this case they might both be tripping hard enough that their relative perceptions of their own alteredness compared to their companion is just not something they are capable of considering.

 

[moonyham]

You're saying you've never heard of anyone moderating their alcohol intake based somewhat on their weight? It might not be explicitly discussed that often but that's just because most people realise that it is obvious.

I specifically made this post about psychedelics..

 

[Vastness]

It's an example. Psychedelic molecules do not have magic brain-honing properties and confine themselves to the inside of the skull anymore than alcohol molecules do, or those of any other drug. In case that was somehow also not obvious to everyone, I directly addressed psychedelics in an effort to explain how people might have acquired this strange misconception that the basic rules of physics, biology and chemistry do not apply to them.

Psychedelics are a wildcard because they are such profoundly altering substances that a lot of the time people don't even know how fucked up they're getting and frustratingly assume they have a lot more self awareness about their own state of mind than they actually do, but the same applies to a 300mcg of acid in the example I just gave with the 50kg vs the 200kg person. It's just that in this case they might both be tripping hard enough that their relative perceptions of their own alteredness compared to their companion is just not something they are capable of considering.

 

[moonyham]

It's an example. Psychedelic molecules do not have magic brain-honing properties and confine themselves to the inside of the skull anymore than alcohol molecules do, or those of any other drug. In case that was somehow also not obvious to everyone, I directly addressed psychedelics in an effort to explain how people might have acquired this strange misconception that the basic rules of physics, biology and chemistry do not apply to them.

But tripping can be measured to some degree. If the walls are breathing and im getting CEV and my friend isn't experiencing either, then it would be safe to assume we were effected differently by the same dose.

Also, you mention alcohol and that psychedelics don't have magic brain seeking abilities. I'm pretty sure a large part of alcohol consumption and how it effects you is about your liver function, and also dilution of alcohol by mass of blood, how large your lungs are/how much you breath to rid the body of alcohol. I dont think it's apples to apples to apples to compare alcohol to lsd.

 

[Vastness]

Obviously tripping can be measured to some degree, and yeah - people are affected differently by drugs, I don't believe I ever disputed that, I have no idea how you got that from my post.

It's not apples to apples but neither is it apples to aeroplanes. If you're going to include drug metabolism in this equation then the answer to your question is EVEN MORE OBVIOUS. Do you think that LSD does not itself go through a metabolic process? Alcohol is metabolised in the liver and LSD binds irreversibly to the serotonin transporters until the synapse eventually sucks it back in for recycling, breaking apart the LSD molecule in the process, probably there's some other stuff I can't recall in both cases. As far as dilution in mass of blood... how exactly do you think LSD moves around your body? Are you trying to say that it doesn't enter your blood? I can't even understand that point. And yeah alcohol is excreted by breath, this is just a mechanistic process because of how humans are designed. LSD is probably detectable in the breath theoretically, not with today's technology because obviously doses are measured in micrograms and I don't know how quickly it binds to it's various binding sites, but if LSD can diffuse through mucus membranes INTO the blood (which it does - LSD travels through blood) it can surely diffuse OUT of the mucous membranes in the lungs even if it's just a couple tens of molecules. So what? Drugs are all processed by the body differently. But everything you said is irrelevant, drugs are diluted and larger people, all other things being equal, say, 2 identical twins, identical psychologies, impossible thought experiment obviously but one is twice as large as the other. Whether it's alcohol, DMT, psilocin, metocin, LSD or LSZ, less of the drug will make it to the brain which is even more of a relevant factor for psychedelic drugs because of the primacy of the cerebral experience.

I'm starting to think as I write this that maybe you are under the impression that the reason there will be no difference for psychedelics specifically is that the only "psychedelic receptors" are located in the brain, but this is not correct, there are serotonin receptors in the digestive system and throughout the body, and the density of these receptors fluctuates and changes depending on a myriad of factors, but one of them being the physical state of the individual possessing them. Larger people with larger bodies, I mean, god damn, I will be absolutely amazed if this is not right because it seems so bafflingly obvious but I admit not having looked it up or anything, but it stands to reason that as they increase in size so will the volume of extracranial receptors that more blood-diluted doses of drugs can bind to on their way through the circulatory system to hit what we humans would consider the "target receptors" in the brain, the result being that, all things being equal - if you wanted a perfect dose, it SHOULD be measured in mg/kg or a similar weight-inclusive unit. i can't believe I've had to write so much just to explain this, I mean, christ, come on man... it's just so obvious!

 

[OpiateKiller]

What the hell are some of you saying, drugs don't just magically travel to the brain alone and hole up there, they are diffused throughout the body. Of course it makes a difference.

It's just that the difference, with many drugs, is typically not significant enough for anyone to bother thinking about it. Weight calibrated dosages like mg/kg type measurements are used frequently in scientific literature and studies, specifically, when controlling as many variables as possible is important to get the most accurate result. However for convenience of the logistics of manufacturing and prescribing it's currently far easier just to settle on agreed upon dosages and increments, usually round numbers, multiples of 10, stuff like that, such as vyvanse / lisdexamphetamine which I believe has manufactured doses from 20mg to 70mg in 10mg increments, rather than calculating the exact optimal dosage to sub-milligram accuracy and manufacturing prescriptions for specific patients with specific doses... it would just be chaos. Equally, people are affected by drugs differently, to a greater or lesser extent, depending on other factors unrelated to their weight, so controlling for their weight would still not lead to a completely uniform response if everyone took drugs according to their bodyweight.

Considering that even the vast resources available to pharmaceutical industries don't do this - even if there was decided to be some advantage - consider the issues this would cause with clandestinely manufactured drugs and friends of different weight sharing a bag of cocaine or something, do you really think anyone is going to agree that the fat one should get a larger proportion of the total quantity, and it should be calculated by the relative sizes of everyone involved? No one is going to do this.

That said - there ARE many drugs where (more responsible) drug users DO take bodyweight into account. I'm sure I've seen it and heard it discussed pretty often that, for example, a relatively slight woman might take like half a pill compared to some hench or maybe just slightly obese dude who needs to take at least 2.

And what about alcohol? You're saying you've never heard of anyone moderating their alcohol intake based somewhat on their weight? It might not be explicitly discussed that often but that's just because most people realise that it is obvious. Someone who weighs 50kg is gonna get a lot drunker on the same amount of alcohol compared to someone who weighs 200kg.

Psychedelics are a wildcard because they are such profoundly altering substances that a lot of the time people don't even know how fucked up they're getting and frustratingly assume they have a lot more self awareness about their own state of mind than they actually do, but the same applies to a 300mcg of acid in the example I just gave with the 50kg vs the 200kg person. It's just that in this case they might both be tripping hard enough that their relative perceptions of their own alteredness compared to their companion is just not something they are capable of considering.

I agree, I think just about every drug matters besides psychedelics. Just because your 300 pounds I'd think twice about eating over 4 grams of shrooms or 3+ tabs of acid lol

 

[cryptix420]

My girlfriend is 100lbs and 5'. I'm 190lbs. and 6'. We take the same doses of psychedelics and get the same effects.

Of course, MDMA/MDA is a much different story FWIW. Cheers

 

[Mjäll]

I assume there is some kind of correlation until good proof.

Psychedelics are complex in their mental effects and dose intensity is difficult to gauge, especially for anyone caught up in any sort of numbers game with them in their mind. One small lesson of letting go, etc.

Sure, the idea of absolute doses is a cool talking point to emphasize perceived magic, but nothing resembling actual truth.

 

[Cream Gravy?]

IME it doesn't mean shit. Males vs females, yeah women need less on average. But I've had fat friends trip balls on lower doses than I'm on when I took more than them. And I'm 130lbs on a good day. Like 40mg 2C-C is mild as hell for me, barely get visuals. 40mg for a chunky friend of mine was enough to give him the most visual trip of his life. Seen the same thing with LSD.

 

[RoBoInSlowMo]

LSD is an entirely unique substance, for example, no matter how you take it orally, IV, IM etc. it will still take the same amount of time to kick in. LSDs pharmacological mechanism are still very misunderstood, same goes for other psychedelics such as psilocybin, 2c-b, mescaline.

LSD is active in micrograms range, Psilocybin is active in milligrams range; the average gram of psilocybe cubensis contains roughly ~6.25 milligrams of Psilocybin. To give you perspective on dosage conversion between LSD and psilocybe cubensis, 100 micrograms of LSD is equivalent to approximately 2.5 gram of P. cubensis. There is no research available indicating body weight is contributing factor in choosing dose, these are incredibly potent compounds with very complex pharmacological mechanisms. Sensitivity to psychedelics plays a much bigger role in choosing dosage than body weight, this can vary dramatically from person to person.

Dose conversion: https://tripsafe.org/lsd-shrooms-dosage-converter/

 

[ecstacylover]

Interesting question ...you give say 200ug to person 1 body weight 65 kg person 2 110 kg or heavier...does person 1 have a more intense experience than person 2.
Im thinking no because both have same receptors in brain both take same dose ...how does body weight affect this...if it does at all.

The % of receptors occupied (at equilibrium) increases as you increase drug concentration, while blood volume increases with increasing body weight. If person A weights twice as much as person B, the concentration of drug in their bloodstream will be half that of person B (assuming of course that the drug is completely distributed into the bloodstream and that blood volume increases linearly with body weight). This implies that person A will have fewer receptors occupied, which presumably corresponds to a weaker drug effect.

Of course there are technicalities. The intensity of the effects isn't just a function of receptor occupancy, it also depends on the expression levels of many other proteins (which themselves might not generally increase with increasing body weight). Additionally, the % of receptors occupied doesn't increase linearly with increasing drug concentration. This means that when most of the receptors are already occupied, doubling the drug concentration isn't going to change things much.