Big Questions About Tryptamines + MAOIs and Safety of 4-HO-MET Fumarate

[Ericjones03]

Hey all, I've recently scored some 4-HO-MET Fumarate, and I'm planning on taking a normal dose for my first time using it; just to clarify, I know absolutely nothing about tryptamines as of right now, so any info is appreciated. While doing my research on it online, I came across the fact that while using DMT you must (or at least that's how it appeared) combine it with a MAOI or it'll be rendered useless pretty much by your own body. I also read a few guides on why not to smoke fumarate and how to convert it to freebase, but I never found anything on if it's safe to simply consume 4-HO-MET fumarate (I believe it would be the same for other related substances as well) orally. So technically, there's two questions I'm hoping to have answered: 1) If I don't combine my 4-HO-MET with a MAOI or other substances, will I still have a psychedelic experience and 2) Would I be able to orally take 4-HO-MET either by spoonful or capsule, or would it be dangerous to do so? To clarify, this is meant for harm reduction, I'm not asking for advice on how much to take, what to take, where to source a substance, etc. Thank you all for your time reading and/or helping me out!

 

[Hilopsilo]

While MAOI is required for nn-DMT to function orally, it is not necessary for 4-substituted tryptamines like 4-HO-MET. So yes, for your first quetsion you don't need MAOI. Combining MAOI with it would still drastically change the experience of 4-HO-MET, but thats a different discussion entirely and it doesn't seem highly recommended unless you are very well versed with psychs.

For your second question, I'm not entirely sure what you mean, you'll certainly need a milligram scale to get even a rough idea of how much 4-HO-MET you're taking, you can't eyeball it accurately whatsoever. But yeah, just eat it however you see fit, capsule or not doesn't matter.

Converting to freebase is only desirable if you want to smoke it, and there is very, very little info on smoking 4-HO-MET anyways, I probably wouldn't recommend it. Not to mention I haven't really found any definitive success stories on converting it to freebase from fumarate. So interestingly enough, and I think this warrants a thread of its own, I emailed psychonaut wiki about the dangers of smoking fumarate and here is the reply I got:

"I have previously investigated this topic and concluded that there is unlikely to be any harm from conversion of fumarate into maleic anhydride upon vaporisation and inhalation and this conclusion has been seconded by qualified chemists with whom I have discussed this issue.

Assuming a typical dose of 20mg for most fumarate salt compounds that would be used through vaporisation, for the hemifumarate salt (the most likely form of this salt in this context), 20mg of the compound would include 4.2mg of fumarate, but for simplicity's sake and as a catch-all for cases where a 1:1 ratio may have been used lets say that would be 10mg of fumarate being added. If we assume a 100% conversion rate for all of the fumarate into maleic anhydride (which is extremely unlikely, but that's beside the point for this example) this would yield maleic anhydride levels which are above the safe exposure level for humans; however, maleic anhydride is readily hydrolysed into maleic acid in the presence of water, which is safe to the extent that it's even used as a sour flavouring, and thusly there is by a very large margin sufficient water present in the lungs to hydrolyse 10mg of maleic anhydride so therefore vaporisation of fumarate salts at levels that would be reasonably possible for any of the relevant compounds on PsychonautWiki should be of no concern.

Thank you for your email anyway as this is a somewhat common misconception.
Kind regards,"

So, you can in fact safely smoke the fumarate salt of 4-HO-MET, BUT, freebase would still be optimal, since with fumarate you're likely to accidentally burn it (wasting it) and apparently its not pleasant at all to smoke. As in, its incredibly difficult to properly vaporize fumarate period, but its "safe".

Its a fun substance, I've tried it 3 times at ~10mg, ~15mg and ~20mg. I found going from 15mg to 20mg really kicked up the experience, while shorter lived it felt similar to 2 grams of mushrooms. I imagine the full fledged, intensely psychedelic experience for the average tripper exists around 30mg. My main gripe with this substance is how short lasting it is considering the IMO uncomfortable and drawn out tryptamine come-up. With 20mg it felt I spent 1/3 of the trip on this jangly come-up, 1/3 getting my bearings and actually immersing myself in the trip, and 1/3 coming down pretty rapidly; it felt too short to get a lot out of it, but it was fun while it lasted definitely. As opposed to LSD where the come-up is short and sweet, and then you've got 10+ hours of solid tripping ahead of you...

 

[Ericjones03]

While MAOI is required for nn-DMT to function orally, it is not necessary for 4-substituted tryptamines like 4-HO-MET. So yes, for your first quetsion you don't need MAOI. Combining MAOI with it would still drastically change the experience of 4-HO-MET, but thats a different discussion entirely and it doesn't seem highly recommended unless you are very well versed with psychs.

For your second question, I'm not entirely sure what you mean, you'll certainly need a milligram scale to get even a rough idea of how much 4-HO-MET you're taking, you can't eyeball it accurately whatsoever. But yeah, just eat it however you see fit, capsule or not doesn't matter.

Converting to freebase is only desirable if you want to smoke it, and there is very, very little info on smoking 4-HO-MET anyways, I probably wouldn't recommend it. Not to mention I haven't really found any definitive success stories on converting it to freebase from fumarate. So interestingly enough, and I think this warrants a thread of its own, I emailed psychonaut wiki about the dangers of smoking fumarate and here is the reply I got:

"I have previously investigated this topic and concluded that there is unlikely to be any harm from conversion of fumarate into maleic anhydride upon vaporisation and inhalation and this conclusion has been seconded by qualified chemists with whom I have discussed this issue.

Assuming a typical dose of 20mg for most fumarate salt compounds that would be used through vaporisation, for the hemifumarate salt (the most likely form of this salt in this context), 20mg of the compound would include 4.2mg of fumarate, but for simplicity's sake and as a catch-all for cases where a 1:1 ratio may have been used lets say that would be 10mg of fumarate being added. If we assume a 100% conversion rate for all of the fumarate into maleic anhydride (which is extremely unlikely, but that's beside the point for this example) this would yield maleic anhydride levels which are above the safe exposure level for humans; however, maleic anhydride is readily hydrolysed into maleic acid in the presence of water, which is safe to the extent that it's even used as a sour flavouring, and thusly there is by a very large margin sufficient water present in the lungs to hydrolyse 10mg of maleic anhydride so therefore vaporisation of fumarate salts at levels that would be reasonably possible for any of the relevant compounds on PsychonautWiki should be of no concern.

Thank you for your email anyway as this is a somewhat common misconception.
Kind regards,"

So, you can in fact safely smoke the fumarate salt of 4-HO-MET, BUT, freebase would still be optimal, since with fumarate you're likely to accidentally burn it (wasting it) and apparently its not pleasant at all to smoke. As in, its incredibly difficult to properly vaporize fumarate period, but its "safe".

Its a fun substance, I've tried it 3 times at ~10mg, ~15mg and ~20mg. I found going from 15mg to 20mg really kicked up the experience, while shorter lived it felt similar to 2 grams of mushrooms. I imagine the full fledged, intensely psychedelic experience for the average tripper exists around 30mg. My main gripe with this substance is how short lasting it is considering the IMO uncomfortable and drawn out tryptamine come-up. With 20mg it felt I spent 1/3 of the trip on this jangly come-up, 1/3 getting my bearings and actually immersing myself in the trip, and 1/3 coming down pretty rapidly; it felt too short to get a lot out of it, but it was fun while it lasted definitely. As opposed to LSD where the come-up is short and sweet, and then you've got 10+ hours of solid tripping ahead of you...

Thank you very, very much for going into such detail for me, I'm definitely a few more steps towards my first experience now. I'm glad to hear that a MAOI isn't necessary, but depending on both the risks and availability, I would like to add that in too, but again I have no idea how one would go about dosing, what I would even use, and so on (one thing I know for sure is that if I'm able, I'd prefer it to not be liquid, like Syrian Rue for example.) Could you perhaps point me to somewhere else that talks about this in practically layman's terms or even possibly explain a litle to me yourself?

 

[Xorkoth]

Hilpsilo made a great post with a lot of information. I'll add to it that consuming it orally, it's better and easier to leave it as a fumarate. Additionally, you absolutely need to have a milligram-accuracy scale to be messing with these compounds. It is impossible to eyeball and a spoon is going to be wild,y inaccurate. The dose of these is small enough that it won't even come remotely close to filling a capsule. Fortunately, milligram scales are easily and cheaply available on Amazon and ebay. Look for the AWS Gemini-20 scale that is accurate to 0.001g. They're about the same price as the ones only accurate to 0.01g and 0.1g, but only the 0.001g will do as it will measure down to the single milligram. Here is a link to one I found via amazon search, only $28: https://www.amazon.com/American-Wei...aws+gemini+20&qid=1554472646&s=gateway&sr=8-2 . You absolutely need a scale, it's cheap if you can afford to buy drugs and you only have to buy it once. if you don't, you're just guessing at dosages and you're absolutely asking for trouble. You can't even trust that a vendor is sending you the right amount of something. I've received double what I ordered from a vendor before and it's often off to some extent. You really need a scale. I can't emphasize this enough.

You should absolutely try and get familiar with 4-HO-MET on its own before trying to add an MAOI. MAOIs will greatly increase the potency and change the character of the trip. MAOIs are for more advanced users, as there are risks involved with diet and iyt can make the trip get much more intense, and you need to understand how to lower the dose of the psychedelic you use. Also I'm not sure what you're saying about liquid, syrian rue is not a liquid, it's a seed, most often consumed as the finely ground seed in gel caps.

For information's sake, to use an MAOI, you just dose the MAOI and then about an hour later, dose the psychedelic.

Welcome to Bluelight. Good for you for actually coming to find the answers to your questions before blindly trying to consume research chemicals.

 

[Ericjones03]

Hilpsilo made a great post with a lot of information. I'll add to it that consuming it orally, it's better and easier to leave it as a fumarate. Additionally, you absolutely need to have a milligram-accuracy scale to be messing with these compounds. It is impossible to eyeball and a spoon is going to be wild,y inaccurate. The dose of these is small enough that it won't even come remotely close to filling a capsule. Fortunately, milligram scales are easily and cheaply available on Amazon and ebay. Look for the AWS Gemini-20 scale that is accurate to 0.001g. They're about the same price as the ones only accurate to 0.01g and 0.1g, but only the 0.001g will do as it will measure down to the single milligram. Here is a link to one I found via amazon search, only $28: https://www.amazon.com/American-Wei...aws+gemini+20&qid=1554472646&s=gateway&sr=8-2 . You absolutely need a scale, it's cheap if you can afford to buy drugs and you only have to buy it once. if you don't, you're just guessing at dosages and you're absolutely asking for trouble. You can't even trust that a vendor is sending you the right amount of something. I've received double what I ordered from a vendor before and it's often off to some extent. You really need a scale. I can't emphasize this enough.

You should absolutely try and get familiar with 4-HO-MET on its own before trying to add an MAOI. MAOIs will greatly increase the potency and change the character of the trip. MAOIs are for more advanced users, as there are risks involved with diet and iyt can make the trip get much more intense, and you need to understand how to lower the dose of the psychedelic you use. Also I'm not sure what you're saying about liquid, syrian rue is not a liquid, it's a seed, most often consumed as the finely ground seed in gel caps.

For information's sake, to use an MAOI, you just dose the MAOI and then about an hour later, dose the psychedelic.

Welcome to Bluelight. Good for you for actually coming to find the answers to your questions before blindly trying to consume research chemicals.

Thank you very much for all of that, it helps a ton, I was definitely planning on getting a milligram scale, but now I've got even better information on which to get. To clear up about the Syrian Rue, I called it a liquid because I'd read many posts where people drank it as a tea, I should've clarified that in my post. Thanks for helping with the MAOI question too, I'll take your word and start off without one for sure. Thanks again, both of you!

 

[Hilopsilo]

Yeah, really don't bother with the MAOI. I've been experimenting with psychedelics for almost 10 years and haven't even messed with MAOI before, and the only time I would be interested is probably for changa.

Just like mushrooms, 4-ho-met is plenty powerful on its own, combining an MAOI will turn the entire experience into from what i can tell, an entirely different beast that is not for the faint of heart.

 

[Ericjones03]

Yeah, really don't bother with the MAOI. I've been experimenting with psychedelics for almost 10 years and haven't even messed with MAOI before, and the only time I would be interested is probably for changa.

Just like mushrooms, 4-ho-met is plenty powerful on its own, combining an MAOI will turn the entire experience into from what i can tell, an entirely different beast that is not for the faint of heart.

Thanks again, I'll remember that!

 

[Sir Ron Pib]

I think combining 4HO-MET with harmalas would be super interesting. Once we tried it doing mushrooms without harmaline wasn't a option. Being as 4HO-MET is so easy it would be fascinating what harmaline adds. Most of the "dangers" of harmala are over played since it's a reversible inhibitor but all the diet restrictions should be adhered to for peace of mind if nothing else and it's best to be as safe as possible. To be honest harmalas aren't given enough attention and mostly seen as activators but there actions are much wider. To the OP 4HO is fine alone for now and MAOI experiments should come later if you so inclined starting with lower doses of the 4HO; It might not really be so but I would at least assume a doubling of potency as a working hypothesis with a MAOI and expect notable character from the harmalas depend on dose, I think many are mistakenly trying the lowest dose of harmalas they can scrap through on when it can do some much more