Beta Blocker before LSD?

[supermagneet]

Beta blockers and LSD/shrooms

Hey i have been prescribed propranolol for migraine prevention, i really like to use occasionally so i'm wondering if it's dangerous to take with propranolol.

Normally my blood pressure is 115/70 so i'm not taking the beta blockers for high blood pressure, i know it's dangerous to take amphetamines with beta blockers so i wont take those, but i really don't want to give up the occasional trip.

The propranolol dose i am on is 80mg and when i do LSD the dose is mostly between 100-400mcg, i've read LSD has some speedy effects but i don't know if it's because epinephrine and norepinephrine release (which is blocked by propranolol by blocking β1- and β2-adrenergic receptors.)

I have read that the danger with amphetamines is because of the increased activity at the alpha adrenergic receptors which cause an even greater vasoconstriction.

Anyone have any feedback or maybe personal experience combining non selective beta blockers and psychedelics (and maybe combining with MDMA)

 

[Captain.Heroin]

I'm moving this to PD because LSD is a psychedelic.

 

[MephMan]

I'm prescribed Propranolol for anxiety disorder, and I've taken it with LSD without any problem at all. It doesn't hinder the effects either in my opinion - like benzos do. I have also combined with MDMA and experienced no problems either, my dose is also 80mg.

 

[Nederlander]

I may be able to get my hands on an as-of-yet unknown beta blocker, and was wondering if taking it before an LSD trip to remove any comeup anxiety would have any adverse effects?

Bonus Question: Would taking a beta blocker before taking 2c-b weaken the 2c-b?

Sorry if I'm in the wrong forum

 

[pasha]

Moving this to Psychedelic Drugs.

BDD -> PD

 

[Nederlander]

Sorry, I wasn't sure where it needed to go, at least i'll know for next time.
Does anyone have an answer?

 

[Solipsis]

merged

So background info: combining beta blockers with stimulants is generally warned against because it can throw off the balance between alpha and beta adrenoceptor activity.

1) LSD, not belonging to the stimulant class, does has some affinity for both alpha and beta adrenoceptors (adrenaline receptors in your body), but not high affinity. I think the way anxiety with LSD is mediated is either psychosomatic and/or by serotonin or dopamine action so the use of a beta blocker may be limited, but it could still be of help.

Maybe you want to be wary of trying the combination just yet though, until someone clears up suggestions from this post in the ADD forum:

Hey BL. I'm sure this should technically be in another forum, but I've asked some basic questions about propranolol elsewhere awhile ago and they never really were answered. I figured some of you might know something about betablockers.

I was wondering about the safety of combining betablockers and serotonergic psychedelics to reduce body load. I was thinking of taking 5 mg propranolol around a half hour after dosing some 2C-E this evening, in particular, so I did a bluelight search along with some googling, both of which were rather unfruitful.

Wikipedia mentioned that propranolol would have significant interaction with ergot alkaloids - does this suggest that betablockers & LSD don't mix?

If anyone wants to chime in here, it'd be much appreciated.

^ LSD is a vasoconstrictor, I have no idea if it is possible that taking beta blockers could increase such side-effects for example.

2) And no it should not weaken 2C-B actions because the psychedelic effects come from activity at serotonin receptors which beta blockers do not act on AFAIK. But 2C-B is a phenethylamine which is structurally a lot more in the direction of adrenaline, indeed the 2C's act on adrenergic receptors - I think, no source handy - so it is probably best if you don't try a beta blocker with it.

Succes ermee

 

[Blue_Phlame]

^ Thanks for that great answer, Solipsis.

 

[AA357]

I did a lot of searching on this the other week, after reading a post that said it was a dangerous combintion. I haven't been able to find any evidence to support this.

As far as I'm aware, the only drug that has any kind of dangerous interaction with LSD is lithium. For some reason this combination tends to cause seizures and death.

 

[Incunabula]

As far as I'm aware, the only drug that has any kind of dangerous interaction with LSD is lithium. For some reason this combination tends to cause seizures and death.

LSD and tramadol isn't supposed to be that great either.

 

[AA357]

LSD and tramadol isn't supposed to be that great either.

Probably not if you're taking massive doses of tramadol, but that's dangerous anyway. If your tolerance is so high that you have to take hundreds of milligrams of tramadol at a time then it would be wise to switch to a stronger and safer opioid. It's a shitty drug anyway. It causes seizures in high doses and psychedelics are known to lower the seizure threshold.

100-200mg Tramadol with a few hits of LSD won't hurt you.

 

[Incunabula]

Have you tried it? I remember one old timer, shambles, having something like SS from the combination. Don't know how much he took though.

 

[Thomas Davie]

I've been taking Labetalol (beta blocker), Amiodipine (Calcium Channel blocker) and Fosinopri (smooth muscle relaxer for almost 14 years. I've had absolutely no problems with mushrooms, 4-AcO-DMT, 4-HO-DiPT, AL-LAD or LSZ.

I do take my meds about 3-4 hours prior to dosing in case I vomit on the physchs (I want the antihypertensives in my system).

Tom

 

[kaj94]

I used to take 10mg propanolol with 25i nbome, it used to remove motor tremors and help with the come up I also used 15mg meloxicam (mobic) for body load always had awesome trips with little body load and no tremors or clenching

 

[Thomas Davie]

The following information may or may not help someone/anyone. I put it out there to demonstrate my belief that these drugs (in combination with various psychs) are safe.

My medical condition was diagnosed as malignant hypertension. That led to kidney failure. This was almost 14 years ago. As long as I keep my blood pressure in check, I prevent any further damage to my kidneys and keep the dialysis and transplant at bay. A side effect of the kidney damage is that I am moderately > severely anemic at times and have poor body temperature regulation. I crave cold temperatures and despise anything above 19C.

Labetalol HCL 300 mg twice a day (beta blocker)
Amiodipine 5mg twice a day (calcium channel blocker)
Fosinopril 20 mg once a day (smooth muscle relaxer)

The meds I take in the late afternoon (from 3-6 hours prior to tripping) are 300 mg labetalol, 5mg amiodipine and 20mg fosinopril. These meds are taken prior to any psych I've taken.

I've taken the following psychs and have the following side effects;

I abuse mushrooms (taken them too many times and will continue doing so) 0.67g - 12.1g
nausea 3-6/10
tremors 0-1/10
chills 0-1/10
muscle clenching 0/10
GI disturbance 1/10

4-AcO-DMT.fumarate (love it and intend to continue using it) 10 mg - 27 mg
nausea 1/10 whether oral or insufflated
tremors 0/10
chills 0-1/10
muscle clenching 0-1/10
GI disturbance 0-1/10

LSZ (meh, weak blotters or degraded) 75-225 ug
nausea 0/10
tremors 0/10
chills 0/10
muscle clenching 0/10
GI disturbance 0/10

4-HO-DiPT.HCl 8-16 mg
nausea 0-2/10
tremors 10/10 (continued for 4 hours or so)
chills 10/10 (4 hour duration)
muscle clenching 10/10 (4 hour duration)
GI disturbance 10/10 (lasted for about 2 days - more effective than exlax )

AL-LAD can't comment, didn't take notes, limited use 75 ug

1p-LSD 25-75 ug
nausea 0-1/10
tremors 1/10
chills 2/10 (subsidies by t + 1 hour)
muscle clenching 1-2/10 (subsides by t + 1 hour)
GI disturbance 1-2/10

My meds have been stable for ~8 years. I've only been taking psychs for 3.5 years. Until January this year I took notes on every trip I took. At that point, something changed (dunno what) and I've stopped taking notes unless I try something new. Lysergamides are, for me, something new.

Are my tripping side effects moderated/changed by beta blocker use? I think I can easily say yes. Do they reduce the side effects? I'm not sure; I don't think I've ever not taken my meds prior to taking psychs so I can't compare. Are beta blockers safe to take in combination with psychs? I'm pretty sure they are; everything since February/2012 has been with beta blockers; I wouldn't be doing this if I thought otherwise. The only thing I've noticed is an increasing intolerance to elevated temperatures.

Tom



This may or may not help someone make a decision about safety

 

[Shambles]

Have you tried it? I remember one old timer, shambles, having something like SS from the combination. Don't know how much he took though.

Firstly... "old timer"?!? Fuck you and the rainbow-shitting transdimensional pixe-ridden unicorn you rode in on



Secondly, I did indeed get a rather brutal case of SS combining tramadol with LSD. Specifically, it was taking tramadol after being scripted it for back pain and I had been taking one 50mg cap morning and evening each day. It was shortly after taking the second tramadol cap on the fateful day that I took the acid (definitely good acid, from a batch I'd taken multiple doses from previously (and indeed afterwards - sans tramadol obviously) with no problems whatsoever). My brief description of what occurred posted a day or so afterwards is reposted (sans original context but with the relevant - if brief - information) here.

I had no idea that the two combined proposed any kind of risk whatsoever but subsequent research suggested that there really is a small - but if it happens to happen to you extremely significant - risk of SS when taking tramadol and LSD close enough together to work out as a de facto combo even if not intended as such (I wasn't using tramadol recreationally or at high dose). If you'd asked me before it happened to me I would've said that the risk was so small it probably wasn't worth considering too seriously, after having personally experienced what can actually happen as a result of that risk - however small - suffice to say my opinion has completely changed.

I genuinely cannot begin to describe how painful - I mean purely physically painful - that night was and that doesn't even begin to get into the full-on delirium stuff. And I got lucky due to not actually dying. Given the fact there is no real need to combine the two (it is perfectly simple to skip tramadol if scripted it - even if that means using some other minor opioid to paper over the cracks for a couple days - or to wait until no longer taking such a messy drug as tramadol. If using it purely recreationally then just don't for a couple days either side of taking any "proper drugs" but, in all honesty, the stuff is best avoided in general if taking any drugs regularly other than other opies, benzos and related junky stuff.

tl;dr - I'd skip the combo in any form cos you really, really don't want to be that relatively rare individual that gets caught out. Even if you don't actually die the experience of a reasonably serious SS event is so far beyond anything one might expect from reading descriptions of it (especially wiki) I honestly could not begin to get across quite how horrific it is in every way. And I am not short on words as y'all can probably tell

 

[Shamanism]

I haven't tried this combo yet, but have used it with tryptamines like 4-HO-MET.

@MephMan and Tom:
With MDMA it has produced tell tale signs of trouble on occasion, which I did not yet recognize as such at the time..

Early symptoms:
-Hot/cold sweating (this is easily mistaken for increased intolerance to increased temperatures, when you are not familliar with the symptoms)
-Eerie tingling sensations in body (can also be dismissed as heat related)
-restless and uncomfortable alerting feeling.

Even a small bump ~60mg at most of amphetamine 3,5 hours after a cautious dose of 20mg Propranolol IR clearly produced the above effects. While it couldn't have been much more than my regular therapeutic dose of d-amp, 25-30mg which I take together with 40mg IR or 80mg XR Propranolol as prescribed without any issues.
So it really is hit or miss and can be very much dose related
-------------------------
Advanced stages: You will know you are in trouble, seek medical attention.
-Excessive hot / cold sweating
-Tingling / burning sensation
-Drowsiness
-Trouble keeping focus
-Tightening of muscles / arteries
-Loss of consciousness

By all means do NOT dose a beta-blocker while already on a stimulating substance, the one strong reaction I had was when taking Propranolol in the morning after a stim session, while I had taken various stims some hours after my morning dose sometimes resulting in the sweats and tingles, but not always either.
But it feels so very wrong when it does happen, that I've been too careful to try it with lysergamides but was wondering if it was safe, as I take it for its muscle relaxing properties and take benzodizapines instead of beta-blockers in most cases but these dampen the trip..
----------------------
But I did find this, which is promising:
In TIHKAL: Shulgin mentions pretreating himself with 40mg Inderal (brand name propranolol) 40 minutes beforehand of a 160µg AL-LAD trip, to reduce nervousness.
While his still might not be completely safe with AL-LAD especially with higher doses of one or the other or both, I maybe will try 20mg Propranolol IR before AL-LAD next time I plan to take it... or maybe not:
http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/704137-Beta-blocker-safety-questions
question: are there psychedelics that are alpha blockers?

I can immagine more stimulating materials like 2C-E or the second part of an LSD trip (it being more dopaminergic), could be prone to light to medium adverse effects. So perhaps with LSD a dose of 20mg Propranolol IR (with a 6 hour duration, instead of 12 with XR) taken some time before LSD and a benzodiazepine for the later stage might be a safer alternative.

So It would be great to know for sure!
Has anybody consistently used a beta-blocker in combination with (high doses?) of psychedelics in general, lysergamides or LSD in particular without any of these symptoms?