Misc BDO Addiction, Must Taper, Advice? (Baclofen, Gabapentin)

[pandamnit-in-fl]

1,4 butanediol was just too readily available; as of a few weeks ago it could be purchased on Amazon. Seemingly overnight, it can't be found anywhere.

My supply will last about ten more days. I've been doing it 24x7 for years; my current dose is 8.2ml, which I take about ten times/day. I am ready to get off of this, albeit a bit scared.

I researched baclofen and secured a big supply of it. I also have a prescription for gabapentin. I've read in academic literature, as well as on this site, that stimulants that trigger dopamine help a lot with withdrawal (this has also been my experience - personally I use small amounts of methamphetamine; when I do, I go much longer without craving another BDO dose). As such, I've secured a small amount of M-AMP for the transition.

So here are my questions:

• Based on my BDO dose (8.2 ml), what would be an effective (initial) dose of baclofen? I tried ~70 mg (every eight hours), but didn't feel well. However, I didn't have stimulants, so I was NOT getting dopamine production, which is a main part of the BDO addiction.
• If you recommend a dose ~140+ mg (which is what I calculate to be the rough equivalent of 8.2 ml), are there any other side effects of Baclofen at this dosage?
• Any wisdom overlapping BDO with baclofen? I read a study wherein they tested the efficacy of, albeit much smaller, doses of both GHB and baclofen. However, there are GHB receptors, so baclofen can only help so much.
• How fast/slow would you taper down from baclofen? Are there any mood issues that result (BDO was an effective mood enhancer for me)?
• Any other meds, supplements, tips? Stimulants?

I've read this board for years, just registered today because my addiction has pressed the issue. Thank you for your advice!

 

[negrogesic]

I just came across this but can't answer this in full right now (its a complicated question), but i can touch on it. (Will have to get back to it later.)

In short, 80ml/day of 1,4-B is a large amount. At those doses my first instinct would be a combo of benzodiazepines and baclofen for the first few days then a switch to just a baclofen taper.

As far as the dopamine issue phenibut might be useful here as it is far more dopaminergic than baclofen. F-phenibut might actually be even better than phenibut here due to its rapid onset. Or even a phenibut and f-phenibut combo. Im just thinking out loud.

I'll get back to this later.

 

[pandamnit-in-fl]

Thank you for the tips - I looked into phenibut and f-phenibut and they do seem like great recommendations.

I would need to use them daily while trying to taper down off them - I saw some concerns about daily use with these supplements.

 

[negrogesic]

Thank you for the tips - I looked into phenibut and f-phenibut and they do seem like great recommendations.

I would need to use them daily while trying to taper down off them - I saw some concerns about daily use with these supplements.

Make no mistake they are not supplements but rather drugs sold as supplements. Phenibut and f-phenibut are baclofen analogs with very similar structures. They carry a high risk of dependence and need to be tapered off gradually.

That said they may have some benefits over baclofen in this particular case if you aren't responding to the baclofen.

The doses of 1,4-B you are describing are very high so you aren't going to be able to drop off without switching to another GABA-B agonist, and all GABA-B agonists cause dependence (ie, baclofen and phenibut).

Of course, phenibut and baclofen do nothing as far as the GHB receptor is concerned. That said activating the GHB receptor seems to produce stimulant like effects so perhaps there is less physical dependence in that arena.

 

[pandamnit-in-fl]

I REALLY appreciate your feedback. Bluelight is such a valuable resource - I have quite the challenge in front of me, but the advantage I've gotten from your insight will make a very real difference.

 

[Lil'LinaptkSix]

I have quite the challenge in front of me,

Hi and welcome to BL.
You will not be alone in this challenge as there are a lot of great people here that can offer assistance, pertinent information and experience to help ya through most rough spots... however; it is you who must be the ultimate decision maker and hopefully that decision can be based on information that is valiid... not an add telling you to call the suicide hotline or jump into a volcano to cleanse the soul.
I have no experience with the substance mentioned but can damn sure wave some pom-poms. lol
Be well and take it slow and easy,
Ptah

 

[ĐmantuNJofra]

i found on internet and was taking GHB a couple years ago, i got off with benzos...at the time they didnt know how to treat patient with that...I stumbold acros a Sulpiride which in doses 100-200mg is an antidepressant, slightly stimulant and what amazed me it upregulates GHB resceptrors! at high doses its a antipsychotic but that doesnt matter

 

[negrogesic]

i found on internet and was taking GHB a couple years ago, i got off with benzos...at the time they didnt know how to treat patient with that...I stumbold acros a Sulpiride which in doses 100-200mg is an antidepressant, slightly stimulant and what amazed me it upregulates GHB resceptrors! at high doses its a antipsychotic but that doesnt matter

Interesting, I didn't know neuroleptics can activate the GHB receptor.

Even more interesting is the notion that GHB itself has neuroleptic properties.

 

[pandamnit-in-fl]

i found on internet and was taking GHB a couple years ago, i got off with benzos...at the time they didnt know how to treat patient with that...I stumbold acros a Sulpiride which in doses 100-200mg is an antidepressant, slightly stimulant and what amazed me it upregulates GHB resceptrors! at high doses its a antipsychotic but that doesnt matter

Interesting. I couldn't find any cases of GHB addicts being treated with Sulpiride for withdrawal. Anyone tried it?

I have been tapering since I originally posted this. I was at 8.2 ml / dose, now I'm down at 6.1 ml.

My plan is to get down to about 3-4 ml, then transition over to either f-phenibut (took that recommendation and ordered some) and/or baclofen.

Thank you everyone for posting, I've read every word and it's really making a BIG difference for me.

 

[ĐmantuNJofra]

Nor did I for treatment...I just say it can ease things because of dopamine rebound.....
Phenibut HCL or F-phenubut is hard stuff, It can be worse so you need to take precaution of doses
I once ordered 20mg baclofen from India it has a short half-life and you can blackout easily so be carefull
Tappering is the best thing I dont think you need anything else except supplements like L-tyrosine, CBD-oil,

Sulpiride, but not haloperidol, up-regulates gamma-hydroxybutyrate receptors in vivo and in cultured cells - PubMed

Five days of gamma-hydroxybutyrate (GHB) administration (3 x 500 mg kg(-1) day(-1) i.p.) to rats resulted in a significant decrease in the density of GHB receptors measured in the whole rat brain without modification of their corresponding affinity. Similar administration of (-)-sulpiride (2 X...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[ĐmantuNJofra]

So like i said in first post it acts as an antidepressant in low doses like 100mg in the morning and the 100 mg at afternoon
in doses described it doesn't acts as a neuroleptic like Olanzapine,hloperidol, seroquel which I personally hate, on the contrary it's effects are
mildly stimulative and the same time anxiolitic, and what's interesting some people in Croatia uses low dose of it for stomach reflux as it alledgelly helps!
sorry for misspelling!
Stay safe we are here to open your horizon wider on the things that can ease your withdrawal so you can choose from advices that
are best suits you and are best for you
You will be fine dont worry

 

[Xorkoth]

That is a ton of BDO. I was addicted to GHB before, and years later, BDO. I came of it suddenly (when I looked back and realized I woke up in the ER a month earlier because of it and still kept using it behind everyone's back, I dumped the rest, like 250 mLs). I just used phenibut instead. Phenibut takes hours to reach full effect but it is a strong GABA-B agonist (like GHB/BDO), and it also lasts like 24-36 hours so it's ;like the methadone of GHB (kind of). It fully substitutes, you will not have to worry about withdrawal, though you will probably not feel great until the BDO dependence p[asses. Then the phenibut can be tapered. I personally find phenibut easier to taper than almost anything else, because it lasts so long. I began by taking it once every 36 hours, and then as soon as I could, waiting a full 48 hours between doses. I had some residual interdose withdrawal but pretty light. Then gradually reduce the dosage, keeping to every 2 days of dosing. Then eventually drop a day out and do every 3rd day. Get stable on that, while gradually continuing to reduce dosage. Then drop to every 4 days after a while, and from there once you get comfortable you can drop off and just have some residual transient anxiety and insomnia.

Hard to say what your dose should be, that is a LOT of BDO... but I was taking like 10-20mLs a day and like 4 grams of phenibut would do it for me. I think you should start with 4 grams, and expect you may need more, but don't go too high. It really does take like 4-5 hours to reach full effect so don't fret, it does seem lie it must just not be working and then after a while it does.

Make no mistake, phenibut is a drug, that somehow, even thought it's been around as a supplement/nootropic for 15 years, has never gotten banned.

 

[pandamnit-in-fl]

That is a ton of BDO. I was addicted to GHB before, and years later, BDO. I came of it suddenly (when I looked back and realized I woke up in the ER a month earlier because of it and still kept using it behind everyone's back, I dumped the rest, like 250 mLs). I just used phenibut instead. Phenibut takes hours to reach full effect but it is a strong GABA-B agonist (like GHB/BDO), and it also lasts like 24-36 hours so it's ;like the methadone of GHB (kind of). It fully substitutes, you will not have to worry about withdrawal, though you will probably not feel great until the BDO dependence p[asses. Then the phenibut can be tapered. I personally find phenibut easier to taper than almost anything else, because it lasts so long. I began by taking it once every 36 hours, and then as soon as I could, waiting a full 48 hours between doses. I had some residual interdose withdrawal but pretty light. Then gradually reduce the dosage, keeping to every 2 days of dosing. Then eventually drop a day out and do every 3rd day. Get stable on that, while gradually continuing to reduce dosage. Then drop to every 4 days after a while, and from there once you get comfortable you can drop off and just have some residual transient anxiety and insomnia.

Hard to say what your dose should be, that is a LOT of BDO... but I was taking like 10-20mLs a day and like 4 grams of phenibut would do it for me. I think you should start with 4 grams, and expect you may need more, but don't go too high. It really does take like 4-5 hours to reach full effect so don't fret, it does seem lie it must just not be working and then after a while it does.

Make no mistake, phenibut is a drug, that somehow, even thought it's been around as a supplement/nootropic for 15 years, has never gotten banned.

Thanks for sharing, this is SO helpful.
I'm not familiar with Phenibut dosing - I've tapered down to ~4.2ml BDO (from 8.2) every two hours - would you still suggest ~4g of Phenibut? I'm about to try my first dose of Phenibut today

 

[mokele]

I

Interesting. I couldn't find any cases of GHB addicts being treated with Sulpiride for withdrawal. Anyone tried it?

I have been tapering since I originally posted this. I was at 8.2 ml / dose, now I'm down at 6.1 ml.

My plan is to get down to about 3-4 ml, then transition over to either f-phenibut (took that recommendation and ordered some) and/or baclofen.

Thank you everyone for posting, I've read every word and it's really making a BIG difference for me.

Got off 2months gbl a while ago.
Please ,if your on it for years, search a hospital where the doctors know about gbl withdrawal! Its basically the same and just recently some withdrawal clinics have wised up on the substance do to so many cases.
Dont at that dose attempt that alone or tapering. Please seek help from DOCTORS WHO KNOW THAT STUFF. Quiz em a bit and if you find one comfortable, go asap!
Dont want to loose you !!!!

 

[negrogesic]

Thanks for sharing, this is SO helpful.
I'm not familiar with Phenibut dosing - I've tapered down to ~4.2ml BDO (from 8.2) every two hours - would you still suggest ~4g of Phenibut? I'm about to try my first dose of Phenibut today

Any chance of tapering down a little more first? 50ml a day is still a heavy dose.

50ml of BDO packs more GABA-B agonism than 4g of phenibut.

F-phenibut is likely your better here due to it being fast acting. You'll probably need a gram or so of that unfortunately.

 

[pandamnit-in-fl]

I wanted to report back with my notes if it could help anyone doing research.

The phenibut ended up being much, much more preferable than the f-phenibut (there were three of us transitioning off BDO, and we all agreed about this).

This is why:

• Phenibut lasts much longer - GHB, GBL, BDO addiction is about chronic dosing and not being able to get through a night of sleep without waking up to take more. The long half-life gives you that air coverage to restore normal sleep, get through a work day, and get your mind off a dosing schedule.
• Phenibut also was just more effective for some reason (one person actually got kind of ill from the f-phen, but she may have taken too much)

Since it takes about three hours for the phenibut to kick in, those with serious addictions might find those three hours uncomfortable. I took the plunge and tried dosing both BDO and phenibut at the same time (BDO will last about two hours for me). I was able to do this without any issue, but the key was to not take a high dose of BDO (one of the others took a high dose of BDO and it put her to sleep for awhile).

We all have other substances we are tapering off. Two of us are tapering off methadone. I microdose mushrooms and use Desoxyn (methamphetamine). Stimulants make my tolerance for any GABA-B agonist MUCH higher, and the metabolism much faster, so I'd need to re-dose sooner sometimes.

The last consideration I'll mention is the addictive nature of phenibut.

I tried a few days completely sober, and I just couldn't feel right. In my younger years, i used to say I was born "three drinks down". I just have never felt normal, happy, or inspired without a chemical adjustment.

I've decided to take a harm reduction approach to this. I'd rather be addicted to phenibut than the long list of substances that have really screwed up my life over the last thirty years.

Thank you to negrogesic and Bluelight - you guys provide such a valuable service.

 

[negrogesic]

I wanted to report back with my notes if it could help anyone doing research.

The phenibut ended up being much, much more preferable than the f-phenibut (there were three of us transitioning off BDO, and we all agreed about this).

This is why:

• Phenibut lasts much longer - GHB, GBL, BDO addiction is about chronic dosing and not being able to get through a night of sleep without waking up to take more. The long half-life gives you that air coverage to restore normal sleep, get through a work day, and get your mind off a dosing schedule.
• Phenibut also was just more effective for some reason (one person actually got kind of ill from the f-phen, but she may have taken too much)

Since it takes about three hours for the phenibut to kick in, those with serious addictions might find those three hours uncomfortable. I took the plunge and tried dosing both BDO and phenibut at the same time (BDO will last about two hours for me). I was able to do this without any issue, but the key was to not take a high dose of BDO (one of the others took a high dose of BDO and it put her to sleep for awhile).

We all have other substances we are tapering off. Two of us are tapering off methadone. I microdose mushrooms and use Desoxyn (methamphetamine). Stimulants make my tolerance for any GABA-B agonist MUCH higher, and the metabolism much faster, so I'd need to re-dose sooner sometimes.

The last consideration I'll mention is the addictive nature of phenibut.

I tried a few days completely sober, and I just couldn't feel right. In my younger years, i used to say I was born "three drinks down". I just have never felt normal, happy, or inspired without a chemical adjustment.

I've decided to take a harm reduction approach to this. I'd rather be addicted to phenibut than the long list of substances that have really screwed up my life over the last thirty years.

Thank you to negrogesic and Bluelight - you guys provide such a valuable service.

I'm glad you were able to transition off the 1,4-BD without issue. You were taking nearly 1/10th a liter a day which is a very high dose.

Interesting about the phenibut being superior to f-phenibut. Seeing as how the onset of action of phenibut is so slow, and how f-phenibut is so similar to baclofen (you could describe it as 4-fluoro deschlorobaclofen), f-phenibut seemed like it would be better on paper. Then again some of my logic was flawed as I originally thought phenibut would be superior to baclofen, yet f-phenibut is more baclofen like than phenibut.

In anycase I'm glad it helped as I remember the original post being quite alarming (with the doses described being in the inpatient detox territory). What dose of phenibut have you been using out of curiosity, and at what dosing intervals?

 

[pandamnit-in-fl]

Phenibut varies between 2.4 - 3g per day right now.

I'm not sure if I'll be able to taper down off this anytime soon (I am finishing a methadone taper too). I'm chalking it up to harm reduction, but if you have any considerations you'd like to me to be aware of, I'd love to hear them.

 

[ComboverLarry]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but this worked for a friend. He consumed 20-24ml per day 24/7. He tried a liquid taper for a week, but always got anxiety and the shakes around hour 4 of abstaining and couldn't maintain a simply BDO taper. He was down to 15ml per day and wanted to increase his taper speed.

Week 2- He got some etizolam. When he hit the wall and took 0.25mg etizolam, he was able to go 8 hours. After the 8 hours, he got debilitating hand cramps and took 1ml BDO, which alleviated the symptoms. After 3-4 hours he took another 0.25 etizolam. He still had trouble sleeping, but was down to 6 ml BDO as a sleep assist after the etizolam wore off.

Week 3- Etizolam only. He started skipping his evening dosage to taper the etizolam, then the morning dose and half the sleep dose. Sleep is the hardest part and he plans on swapping 50 mg trazodone for all the benzos in the near future. He's almost through it.

 

[sparker69]

I'm currently going through BDO addiction, I've only got Lyrica , but I find my self taking Lyrica and BDO same time
This addiction is bad , it's cheap to get and readily available
I wish I never found this stuff , but it's amazing with reducing anxiety