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Ayn....

^^I was referring to the thead in general, not you personally :D
AmorRoark:
If it did turn into the rich being able to vote, then it would be the poor's fault for not becoming involved
You strike me as someone who has little understanding or experience with economic hardship, little understanding of economics as it relates to society in general, is quite young, and has had little contact with the world around you.

A great man once said "The cure for objectivism is actually meeting Ayn Rand"
(Robert Anton Wilson)
 
The wonderful thing about Ayn Rand is that she provided a philosophical opposition to Marxism when it was desparately needed. The awful thing is how extreme a position she painted herself into.

I do feel that Objectivism is far superior to Communism, but neither one is worth bringing home to mamma in the raw form. Both deny the virtues of the other side, and while I feel there is much more to be said for being rewarded for producing rather than for standing with your hand out (to each according to his need...), there are many reasons why either extreme will not work.

The beauty, though, is at least Rand worked in fiction, and anyone with a functional neuron recognized that her novels were painted in unrealistic extremes to make certain (albeit valuable) points, whereas Marx sold an unrealistic work of fiction as a viable political philosophy, and didn't even bother putting it in an engaging fictional format...
 
Re: Ayn Rand

zorn said:
Philosophy for fourteen-year-olds.

That's pretty closed minded Zorn. Rand might be a minor thinker compared to some of the bigger, more influential philosphers, but it still has its interesting points. Anyway, even if you think Ayn herself is a philosopehr for "14 year olds" you can hardly discount her entire philosophy as such, unless you want to say the same thing about its major influences such as Nietzche.

Originally posted by OperatesHeavyMachinery
I do feel that Objectivism is far superior to Communism, but neither one is worth bringing home to mamma in the raw form. Both deny the virtues of the other side, and while I feel there is much more to be said for being rewarded for producing rather than for standing with your hand out (to each according to his need...), there are many reasons why either extreme will not work.

Yes, I agree completely that both deny virtues of the other side (i would bring it down to unbalanced deification of "will to power" and "libido" drives). I also thought it was interesting that you mention that "there is more to be said for being rewarded for producing than....taking handouts." That, I think is one of the better parts of her philosophy (and taken right from Nietzche). Pity really is not a favor to anyone, as it kind of concretes them into a mindset of "i need" instead of "i can."

Of course, that doesn't mean you shouldn't help people when they need it and Rand recognizes that. Roark accepts help from some when he needs it, but when he senses pity he refuses it because it is demeaning.
 
I read anthem... I loved it way more than her better known Fountainhead and Atlas shrugged....I love Anthem, but i don't think i could take a 400-500 page book of her. Even in Anthem, she got redundant.
 
People still think greed is good?

Really?

Surely not

as i think greed aspects of human nature should be suppressed and controlled, as we do to violence, greed does have its positive applications. And whether you or me likethat idea is beyond the point, Greed has the ability to be a helping force of society.
 
I think philosophy-for-14-year-olds is a perfect description of "Objectivism." Rand's books read like adolescence spilled into novel form: everything out of proportion, self-important, melodramatic, alienated, with insecurity masquerading as condescension.

Calling Rand herself a "philosopher" is more than a bit of a stretch IMO, akin to calling Britney Spears a "musician" or an "artist." She might be popular with some people, she might be catchy in short doses, but what she does bears only a vague relation to what actual musicians -- like say the awesome Neutral Milk Hotel :) -- do.
 
sure its a "subjective" matter, and that being such, zorn is encouraged to offer his subjective ideas on that matter.

:)
 
Sure AR work might be fictional but in the Fountainhead, Roarks character was based on Frank Loyd Wrights relationship with Louis Sullivan as well as FLW character in general and she used the sense of modernism in architecture as her analogy to modernist philosophy.
On first reading the fountainhead for me there was an form of individual inspiration but after I put the book down I found elements of it highly questionable.
what is an individual if it doesnt acknowlegde the individual in others?

im pretty much over the AR thing and I really just wanted an excuse to say I bought a copy of the fountainhead for $6 AUS 10 years ago in a 2nd hand book shop that is signed by her.........not worth much is she :)
 
^^^^

that's very interesting that you say AR and Frank Lloyd Wright have some connections. i've been a fan of Wright's architecture for a long time (who isn't? :p).
 
^^^^
Oh yeah FLW stuff is up there with the best and oh so seminal.
Maybe when youre over the history of sexuality you should read up about him, he got his nuts and bolts around.nudge nudge wink wink.
 
She was already writing the book when she met FLW... so it isn't entirely based off him.
 
no not entirely but FLW persona (like i said based on) was already around and known of.
 
zorn said:
I think philosophy-for-14-year-olds is a perfect description of "Objectivism." Rand's books read like adolescence spilled into novel form: everything out of proportion, self-important, melodramatic, alienated, with insecurity masquerading as condescension.

Calling Rand herself a "philosopher" is more than a bit of a stretch IMO, akin to calling Britney Spears a "musician" or an "artist." She might be popular with some people, she might be catchy in short doses, but what she does bears only a vague relation to what actual musicians -- like say the awesome Neutral Milk Hotel :) -- do.

:D
That sounds like something Dominique from the Fountainhead would say! Only, substitute the name Roark for Neutral Milik Hotel and Peter Keating for Brittany Spears. How interesting...;) (and i applaud your musical taste btw :))

I do agree with you Zorn that everything in the book is "out of proportion, self-important, melodramatic, alienated." And I also agree, if her characters were people in real life, they would be "masquerading insecurity as condescension." However, I think the characters deliberately are not 3-dimensional. Instead they're symbols of an extreme example of one "thing" - whether it be Peter Keating representing the "rabble" aspects of mankind, Roark representing the Will to Power in man and so on. As such, the melodrama, and out of proportioness is an apropriate, if sometimes annoying stylistic choice.

However, I have found something in her philosophy and explanation of The Fountainhead that irks me greatly. It's her "reason" worship. For instance, despite her great and obvious borrowing from Nietzche, she dismisses him as a "mystic and irrationalist" and criticises him saying "his espistemology "subordinates reason to 'will'". She explains that Roark's impenetrable "will" is simply the effect of his great reasoning skills, and his knowledge that he has reasoned correctly. She also tries to pawn the "love" between her and Roark, as the effect of pure reason, because it is only reasonable, when thinking about it, that they should be together.

This is nonsense though. Roark in fact, acts very unreasonable throughout the entire novel. He refuses to compromise his work, even in the slightest way. At one point, he gives up a commission that would have kept him in business for a long time, simply because the people he's building it for wanted a classic motive on its facade. When the people offering him the commission accuse him of being irrational he even replies, "probably." Because of this he closes his office and goes to work at a granite quarry as a simple laborer. Whats driving him? Surely not reason. If that were the case he would have taken the job and compromised. It is an irrational force driving him, and that irrational force in many ways resembles Nietzche's concept of Will to Power.

Same goes with Roark's relationship with Dominique. Using one's reason solely, it makes sense that Dominique would marry the heir to her father's business, the handsome, successful Peter Keating. However, as absurd as it seems, given the outside circumstances, Roark and Dominique are in love and at the end are together. At one point, Dominique's need to see Roark is described as "too great to have a purpose." Also, the intensity of their sexual encounters are more akin to an irrational passion, than to the dry reason of the mind. Again, its libido or eros as a drive, or perhaps a better word to use would be "daimon," not as the effect of reason.

By the way Zorn, I'm not trying to argue with you just to be disagreeable. Your dissenting quotes just make a good way for me to clarify my thoughts on the paper i'm writing. :)
 
^^^^

Your'e writing a paper on the fountainhead? cool.
Maybe you could post it up afterwards, That would be interesting :)
 
ayn_seal_of_approval.jpg


=D
 
Rationality is overrated, especially when Ayn's ideas of rationality and reason are, for her, objective ideas.
Well sorry Ayn, I don't swing that way!

Give me constructive chaos anyday.

All Hail Discordia!!
 
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