Tryptamines Ayahuasca - Anyone with experience?? More info needed!

[Nige.Netzband]

Sup lighters,

I've recently been reading a lot about Ayahuasca. Is there anyone with any experience with it here, both in a traditional "shamanistic" setting, or elsewhere? I'm particularly interested in the setting factor involved with the experience. How important would you say it is to be in a traditional setting? Many of you will know that there has been a degree of commercialisation in recent years, with western investors capitalising on its growing popularity and starting "Ayahausca retreats" into the Amazon- particularly Peru. I'm rather sceptical of these. Has anyone been to any?

The main points I'm wondering is, are retreats necessary? Is the presence of a shaman important? Or could you achieve the same outcome at any location, by yourself/with the right people?

Cheers

 

[Clocktower]

Sup lighters,

I've recently been reading a lot about Ayahuasca. Is there anyone with any experience with it here, both in a traditional "shamanistic" setting, or elsewhere?

I've used an oral DMT / MAOI (harmaline) combination in a home setting.

I'm particularly interested in the setting factor involved with the experience. How important would you say it is to be in a traditional setting?

What do you mean 'traditional?' I had a great time tripping at home, laying in bed.

Many of you will know that there has been a degree of commercialisation in recent years, with western investors capitalising on its growing popularity and starting "Ayahausca retreats" into the Amazon- particularly Peru. I'm sceptical rather sceptical of these. Has anyone been to any?

Stay skeptical. AFAIK there's no regulation or quality control for such things.

The main points I'm wondering is, are retreats necessary?

Necessary for what? It wasn't necessary for me.

Is the presence of a shaman important? Or could you achieve the same outcome at any location, by yourself/with the right people?

If there had been someone I didn't know who claimed to be a 'shaman' present during my experience, I would have hated it.

 

[Kapitan]

I had an amazing experience at home by the fire about a decade ago. Link. Personally, I wouldn't want some "shaman" trying to force a spiritual spin on my trip.

I'd recommend using the legit vine rather than the syrian rue seeds as your MAOI. The nausea with syrian rue is so much worse that it's not even close to worth the few dollars that you save.

 

[Nige.Netzband]

By traditional I of course mean the settings in which Ayahausca has been used by native south americans for thousands of years, in a ritual format.

This is what I'm getting at, I'd like someone who has had experience in such a setting to explain the extent to which it is important.

I appreciate you have tried DMT with an MAOI at home but I'm wondering if there could have been a lot more to gain through the experience if used in what, say, a Peruvian "shaman" would consider the correct setting. These rituals have of course been passed down for millennia, Icaro chanting etc which are supposed to guide and influence the trips. I have seen quite a lot of information stating that such things are some of the most important facets of the experience. I'm wondering if anyone could elaborate on that?

Thanks for the response

 

[Nige.Netzband]

Also, how did you girlfriend react to your confessions Kapitan?? haha. Interesting read.

 

[Kapitan]

Heh. I'm rereading this now. It's uncomfortable to reread a public document that you wrote when you were so young.

She was pretty cool about drug use. If I remember correctly, she was more interested in trying whatever it was that I had taken than in the ways I had wronged her We ended up doing acid and mushrooms a few times.

 

[MetanoiaMan]

Bro, You have come to the right place. I have been to four Ayahuasca ceremonies. all four around los angeles. Two of them were run by white people, two were run by a peruvian shaman. The one run by white people had a kind of cult aspect to it. The one with the peruvian shaman was in my experience way more legit. It was sort of the difference between seeing a grateful dead cover band and seeing the grateful dead. Personally I think traveling to the amazon is a bit of a scam as you are really just going to experience your own consciousness wherever you go. I would never go to the amazon after experiencing ayahuasca. NEVER. And further, I'll tell ya, I think it's old wine in new skins. The experience is identical to high dosage psilocybin. in my experience, there is no difference. You are going right to the same place. Everything is identical. You're gonna trip right through your lizard brain right up through the crown chakra. But I would say you are gonna have an identical experience if you eat an eighth of mushrooms. Seriously. It' snot a popular opinion here, but Dennis McKenna agrees. I did find the experience much harsher with the white people than with the pervuian fellow. The peruvian guy sang beautiful icaros. all night with great power and the white people weren't nearly as powerful. Set and setting is key. But i am telling you if you are somewhere you are happy and eat an eighth your experience is going to identical. It's a bit how yoga has become a ritualization of exercise. It's still mostly exercise. Tripping is tripping and ayahuasca is not that unique except for how big a does it is. 35 llbs of the vine is reduced to about 12 oz as it was explained to me. But don't fall for going to the amazon, and don't fall for the ritualization of tripping. It's still just tripping which can be extremely beneficial in the right circumstances.

 

[Nige.Netzband]

This is exactly the sort of answer I wanted. Thanks! One quick final question, when you did them with the shaman were you in a natural environment, outdoors, nice setting etc? I appreciate that ultimately you are still exploring your own conciousness but I'm wondering whether being in a natural setting may also impact the way the trip unfolds. Obviously with LSD and psilocybin this plays a big role, and from that I am inferring it is the same. Or is it so powerful that you lose complete awareness of any scenery? I've read about some of the ayahausca retreats in the amazon sending people out into areas of the jungle whilst tripping. The argument is that it reduces you to your basic instincts even more so, survival mechanisms etc associated with the reptilian brain and thus seperate you even more so from the civilised world. In your opinion would this be valid thing to say or is this all sales bullshit?

 

[Clocktower]

It's all sales bullshit. Tripping in the jungle just means you're more likely to get bit by a snake or a disease-infected mosquito.

When you're deep into a high-dose DMT trip, you'll be separated from the civilized world, regardless of the setting you're in. Better to wake up in your own bed than on the forest floor covered in dirt, rashes, and ants.

 

[Nige.Netzband]

8(...like that haha. Cheeers geezah. Much appreciated

 

[MetanoiaMan]

I think it's somewhat sales bullshit. But I don't want to sound cynical. The majority of your ayahuasca trip is going to be with your eyes closed. In fact, I was instructed in both environments that with your eyes open all appears normal, and in all instances I found this to be true, moreso than I did with either LSD or psilocybin. Ayahuasca will put your limbic brain in overdrive, and any kinks in it, that are precognitive, will be ironed out. I am pretty sure that is it's great healing quality. I also think that is where a lot of the vomiting comes from. It's why you feel better after being seasick. Your limbic brain figures for you to feel that way, you must have eaten something that is making you sick. the limbic brain has no relationship with motion sickness. It can't conceive boats or cars, so vomiting makes it feel like it has done its' job. You will also have your ajna chakra(Your sixth) Open and this is where the visions come from. You do not need your eyes open for this to happen, just as you do not need your eyes open to dream. It's the same experience. The real boon from ayahuasca and all psychedelics is the opening of your crown chakra. This puts you in a space beyond the ego, and beyond this lifetime, and from their you can the jeweled net of indra that is interwoven with what comes before this life, what follows it, and this very life. And when you can experience that firsthand, you realize you have nothing to fear, and that most of your problems are caused by fantasies the ego has formed around that have no basis in reality. You understand that any experience you have of feeling that your parents, friend, society have shaped you, are really about the ways that you restrict yourself in your experience of yourself. I don't think that being in Nature is gonna make that much difference, because the Nature/Civilization dichotomy is just another fantasy that keeps you from experiencing reality. I mean if you think about it, the room you are in right now, is constructed of wood, or some kind of concrete, which is simply refined trees and rock. The roads built of concrete are just crushed rock, the cars you drive in are mined ore, the rubber your tires are made of come out of trees. Your fantasy of nature vs. city is just another fantasy that keeps the truth from you. BTW, I took ayahuasca four times and never threw up. I have lived a pretty healthy lifestyle and I think ayahuasca removes residual experience of impurity, either emotional or physical from your limbic system. Smokers throw up the worst, followed by alcoholics. I think it's well worth pursuing, but make sure you don't fetishize Ayahuasca. It is a big time psychedelic, but incredibly similar in affect to either high dose LSD or Psilocybin. Sure it's good to kick out the jams every once in awhile with some "Heroic doses" of psychedelics. But it's also good to take it slower. Either through some lower dose experiences or building up a bank of consciousness with meditation. Either way you can't go wrong.

 

[consumer]

You keep telling people that taking aya is like taking an 1/8 oz of mushrooms. It is not the same at all. You are spreading misinformation which is particularly dangerous when dealing with strong psychedelics. Please stop this bullshit.

 

[tokezu]

^ Well, he didn't put it exactly like that this time, but just said, that as both are "big time psychedelics" they are very similar in effect. Which is is an absolutely valid statement IMO.

BTW, I took ayahuasca four times and never threw up. I have lived a pretty healthy lifestyle and I think ayahuasca removes residual experience of impurity, either emotional or physical from your limbic system. Smokers throw up the worst, followed by alcoholics. I think it's well worth pursuing, but make sure you don't fetishize Ayahuasca.

I often have a feeling that the purge is kind of fetishized by many people. I mean, you are gulping down a whole lot of plant matter that has been boiled down to one little cup, it shouldn't come as a surprise that the body doesn't like that very much. It might make sense for indigenous people, I read somewhere that the vomiting and diarrhea caused by ayahuasca is very helpful at getting rid of certain parasites. But for westerners who make out the purge to be such an important part, I have always felt like this is just another ego game, namely "I deserve to suffer."

 

[jonteng]

Sup lighters,

I've recently been reading a lot about Ayahuasca. Is there anyone with any experience with it here, both in a traditional "shamanistic" setting, or elsewhere? I'm particularly interested in the setting factor involved with the experience.

My only experience with ayahuasca (but not psychedelics), at a ceremony of santo daime in Belgium:
http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/735763-Ayahuasca-(1-glass-first-experience)-long-lasting-trauma

 

[consumer]

The experience is identical to high dosage psilocybin. in my experience, there is no difference. You are going right to the same place. Everything is identical. You're gonna trip right through your lizard brain right up through the crown chakra. But I would say you are gonna have an identical experience if you eat an eighth of mushrooms. Seriously.

[/I]

Sounds like saying its exactly the same to me...which is not a valid statement

 

[Rysdan]

Sup lighters,

I've recently been reading a lot about Ayahuasca. Is there anyone with any experience with it here, both in a traditional "shamanistic" setting, or elsewhere? I'm particularly interested in the setting factor involved with the experience. How important would you say it is to be in a traditional setting? Many of you will know that there has been a degree of commercialisation in recent years, with western investors capitalising on its growing popularity and starting "Ayahausca retreats" into the Amazon- particularly Peru. I'm rather sceptical of these. Has anyone been to any?

The main points I'm wondering is, are retreats necessary? Is the presence of a shaman important? Or could you achieve the same outcome at any location, by yourself/with the right people?

Cheers

Greetings Nige...

Here is my, somewhat (maybe totally) biased, response: Ayahuasca should be used as a healing tool, whether it be of a physical nature or disease, or emotional such as depression or anxiety, and of course is great for soul searching. But if your goal is add another notch in your psychonaut belt, I'd suggest just smoking some DMT as that's the psychoactive compound in Aya. Aya itself, is a vine that contains no psychoactive attributes. What it does have, is an maoi inhibitor, which allows humans to then orally digest DMT which is added to the brew via other plants which are rich in DMT, such as chacruna leaves and a couple other plants I'm forgetting off the top of my head. That said, here is where the importance of a shaman or other qualified maestro comes in. Now whether you believe in the ethereal realms, or are more of a scientific (eg quantum physics) mind, it doesn't really matter as they are the same. From an energetic point of view, imo and that of many others, it's very important to have someone that can clear and 'hold the space' for you. The provider should be someone you trust implicitly and should be well practiced in their field. People often speak of 'set and setting' when it comes to psychedelics/entheogens, and out of them all, I'd say it's more important with Aya than anything else.

The expensive, commercialized retreats aren't necessary, just convenient for westerners who are not necessarily comfortable to go to the jungle in a land where they don't speak the language. I've been to one, and it was nothing short of a magical experience. But really, there's an option for everyone. My personal preference is to be at or near the source of the Aya brew that I'll be drinking. Also, there are different types of Aya, so look into that before consuming. But there absolutely is a connection and an amazing, indescribable feeling I get when in the heart of the Amazon. That said, Aya itself has spoken to many people, and said that she (not really a she, but presents as a motherly being to most people) is trying to reach out to everyone that could use her help. So in that, I think it's fine to find a traveling shaman/medicine person in your area, or a more easily accessible area. But do your 'due diligence' and research.

And please note... if you currently take any prescription meds, especially SSRI's, be completely off of them for at least 3-6 months. It can have deadly side effects when mixed with Aya.

I hope you have an amazing experience wherever you decide to partake.

Cheers

 

[CrypticArc]

Shrooms and ayahuasca are not the same. They can feel similar, or not. It really depends on what headspace you're in.

 

[MetanoiaMan]

No matter what Psychedelic you use(acid, mushrooms, ayahuasca, mescaline) they're all gonna reveal your mind to you. That's what psychedelics means "mind manifesting". If you think different psychedelics show you different realms, that's just nonsense. It's all you.

 

[NiceEnough]

An old friend of mine bought a few acres of rainforest in Peru to grow sacred rainforest herbs, including the two main ingredients (containing N,N-DMT and an MAOI) for Ayahuasca. He would then import them over to the UK and do a few cheap sessions with carefully selected people. A proper dose is seriously powerful, you need an experienced and trustworthy guide. Mine opened a window of real life changing potential, which continued long after the actual session. Don't necessarily expect visions, you may get them but so people don't. The brew seems to have a restorative effect on the body, going through and correcting things that have gone wrong or at least doing its best. And you don't have to throw up - there is a technique for keeping it down, although it probably won't feel particularly comfy in your stomach if you manage it. The main thing is to make sure the person leading the ceremony is trustworthy and is able to abandon his ego for the sake of his 'patients'. Be wary of very expensive sessions, and you don't need to go to the rainforest. Mine worked perfectly well in a community centre in East London!

 

[Nige.Netzband]

Thanks for all the responses. This is exactly the sort of dialogue I had hoped for. Interesting to see the differences regarding spiritual/scientific perspectives over psychedelics. I personally have always been very scientifically inclined (just completed a psychology masters with focus on psychoactives!) however, the more I research, speak to people, and conduct my own psychedelic endeavours, the more I am opening up to the possibility of a "mystical" element here. I'm sure many people have gone through this.

Here is my, somewhat (maybe totally) biased, response: Ayahuasca should be used as a healing tool, whether it be of a physical nature or disease, or emotional such as depression or anxiety, and of course is great for soul searching.

This is purely about soul searching/interest to me- even slightly professional as I am hoping in future to in some way apply this knowledge to my career. I am working on my DMT experience as we speak. Not yet achieved a "breakthrough" but a lot of researching and building up to that big hit! I feel like if I do aya I may as well go the full wack and get to the Amazon, I am planning on travelling south america later this year anyways so it makes sense.

One thing that concerns me though, I understand that many of the retreats (or similar setups) are dealing with people with real significant psychological issues. I (like anybody) of course have a few minor issues, but I wouldnt consider myself mentally ill. I am wondering whether being in an environment surrounded by such people would be most beneficial for my "soul searching" as you put it. What are your views on this? And have you heard of anywhere that conducts aya ceremonies solely for purposes such as my own.

No matter what Psychedelic you use(acid, mushrooms, ayahuasca, mescaline) they're all gonna reveal your mind to you. That's what psychedelics means "mind manifesting". If you think different psychedelics show you different realms, that's just nonsense. It's all you.

Such debates are futile. Even the most recent developments of neuroscience (along with quantum mechanics) cannot mechanistically determine whether individual conciousness is produced OR received by the brain. It's the classic atheist vs spiritual debate. No one of us can answer this definitively or whether there is a spirit world etc. I guess we just have to make up our own minds - or be provided the information from the pool of universal conciousness - whichever suits your perspective ha!